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jurch
Mar 18, 2003, 6:37 AM
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I'm just courious... what have americans accomplished in himalaya? i know you guys are among the best in aid climbing and you're so proud of your el cap and similar walls, but i believe the real ground is high himalaya with its altitude, extreme walls, awful weather etc...
i'm interested, because most of the names ''sounding english'' are from britain, nz... so if you could just name some routes...
tnx
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maohaihuang
May 13, 2003, 5:58 PM
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the 1963 Everest West Ridge - Horbeine Couloir was impressive.
The 1983 scent of Kangshung Face of Everst was bold.
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brianthew
May 13, 2003, 6:15 PM
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Charlie Fowler has done some sick stuff...his lastest accomplishment in China w/ Ramsden isn't really Himalaya, but he his website lists a first ascent of Erkimkang in Tibet done solo, and he's done some stuff in the "High Asia" region...FA of Mustagh Ata (again solo) for example.
Most of American alpine accomplishments and moderate altitude is done in the great state of Alaska....why travel to Asia for huge mountains?
Hey we kicked off the guide system on Everest....ummmm....yeah....
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Deleted
May 14, 2003, 5:37 AM
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[quote:6ceacb18a3="jurch"]I'm just courious... what have americans accomplished in himalaya? i know you guys are among the best in aid climbing and you're so proud of your el cap and similar walls, but i believe the real ground is high himalaya with its altitude, extreme walls, awful weather etc...
i'm interested, because most of the names ''sounding english'' are from britain, nz... so if you could just name some routes...
tnx[/quote:6ceacb18a3]
nothing. we are big gooshy sissies. we just want to go sports climbing in the sun with our cute little tights with the tank top tucked into it. the himalaya is too cold and there are no starbucks there (yet).
yep, we suck. el cap is choss. i want a doughnut.
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jurch
May 14, 2003, 6:36 PM
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maohaihuang,
that 1963 west ridge of yours is really something... the route goes 'over' the ridge and then instead of going up the ridge it goes into that hornbein couloir... avoids all real trouble (yellow band) and technically only touches the west ridge...
we (slovenians) done it in 1979... it's called ''west ridge direct'' and it's mentioned almost nowhere :), but it goes up the ridge from the beginning, up the yellow band... no wonder it was repeated only once... hardest route on everest...
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maohaihuang
May 14, 2003, 10:12 PM
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In reply to: Charlie Fowler has done some sick stuff...his lastest accomplishment in China w/ Ramsden isn't really Himalaya, ....
sorry man. you are talking about MICK Fowler who is British. I have
been to his slide show in the UK Alpine Club about the awarded
Siguniang climb.
In reply to: he's done some stuff in the "High Asia" region...FA of Mustagh Ata (again solo) for example.....
That must be a different Mustag. Mustagh Ata was first climbed by
the chinese in the 1950s. It's normal route is a popular ski descent now.
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maohaihuang
May 14, 2003, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: that 1963 west ridge of yours is really something...
who told you I am an American? The 1963 route was an on sight
of that part of the mountain -- there had been no information when
the pioneers ventured over there. The Slovenian route stands on
previous climber's shoulders.
The reason why many of the Eastern European death routes are
seldom repeated is because they lead to an evolutional dead end.
Look how many elite Slovenian alpinists have died over the years.
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xkyczar
May 16, 2003, 2:31 PM
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Charlie Fowler in Asia:
Sipchu Kang, east summit, Shodu, Bhutan, '91 FA with John Roberson and Frank Babb
Mustagh Ata, Xinjiang, China, FA western route, '94 solo
Siguniang Shan, Kham, Tibet, third ascent by new route, '94 solo
Chola Shan I and II, Kham, Tibet, second ascent and FA '97 solo
Gurla Range, West Tibet, 2 6900 meter peaks, FA '97 with Tom and Quinn Simons and Soren Peters
Erkimkang, Langtang, Nepal, FA '99 solo
Cho Oyu, Original Route, Tibet, 2000 with Laura Bakos
Shishapangma, South Face - British Route, Tibet, 2000 with Christine Boskoff
Everest 2002 Summit as the Mountain Madness expedition leader.
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brianthew
May 16, 2003, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: sorry man. you are talking about MICK Fowler who is British.
Haha. Mah bad. Yes, that was Mick. Ooops. Like the Lowes...so many, so easy to confuse.
However, Charlie Fowler is American.
And I quote his website:
In reply to: Charlie was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Virginia.
Also:
In reply to: That must be a different Mustag. Mustagh Ata was first climbed by the chinese in the 1950s. It's normal route is a popular ski descent now.
I meant FA of a route on it, not the peak itself. Pardon my lack of clarity.
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maohaihuang
May 16, 2003, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: Charlie Fowler in Asia: Mustagh Ata, Xinjiang, China, FA western route, '94 solo Siguniang Shan, Kham, Tibet, third ascent by new route, '94 solo
ah. yes. He indeed did Siguniang, on the opposite side of Mick
Folwer's recent route. It was not a trivial ascent and was on par
with what the European contemporaries were doing.
Mustagh Ata -- ok i didn't know this route. Sorry Brian. Looks
like Charlie Folwer was on high in 1994.
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wallwombat
Jan 2, 2004, 11:18 PM
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In 1958 an American expedition made the first ascent of Gasherbrum 1.
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skiclimb
Jan 11, 2004, 8:17 AM
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How about that 1930s trip to K2 nearly summited..then on descent there was a lot of cotroversy...Can't remember names and details..but somebody must.
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brianinslc
Jan 15, 2004, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: How about that 1930s trip to K2 nearly summited..then on descent there was a lot of cotroversy...Can't remember names and details..but somebody must.
1939 expedition with Wiessner. Recently departed Durrance was kinda blamed for stripping the lower camps. Socialite climber Dudley Wolfe, and a few Sherpa, died.
1938 trip with House, Bates, Petzoldt, etc was pretty impressive too. Both House and Petzoldt got to 26K and determined a camp could be placed up there. 5 miles high.
1936 Nanda Devi, highest mountain climbed at that time. Summitted by a pair of brits, but, a combo trip of British-American climbers. Young Harvard fellers.
1963 West Ridge of Everest. Those boys were out there. Surviving an open bivy, completing a traverse, hookin' up with their team on the south col route. Amazing. U2 spy photo of the mountain provided much needed intel on the peak. Interesting...
Brian in SLC
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solored
Jan 15, 2004, 10:07 PM
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First ascent of the Kangshung (East) Face of Everest by the American Buttress (not yet repeated) - G. Lowe, Reid, Momb, Reichardt, et al.
Hungo Face of Kongde Ri (Kwangde) by J. Lowe & D. Breashears in the early '80's showed that multi-day super technical routes could be done at altitude.
First ascent of NE Ridge of K2 (3rd ascent overall?), & 1st ascent w. no supplementary O2 - Wickwire, Reichardt, Roskelley, Ridgeway
There are, of course, more but certainly not as many as the Europeans. Big problem for the U.S. is that not so many people live near good mountains to get exposure to alpine climbing, whereas the Alps are so easily accessible to so mant people n Europe. Also, I think that Americans get nowhere near as much support from manufacturers, alpine clubs, and the public as do Europeans expeditions - there just aren't very many alpine climbers here as compared to the numbers in Europe.
Even just bumblies like me who'd like to do moderate climbs in Asia have a very difficult time doing so due to the amount of time required - most people in the U.S. have only 2 (at most 3) weeks of vacation time per year. You just can't get to any interesting places in the Himalaya in that amount of time. But Europeans, who get 4-6 weeks of vacation time per year can easily do a trip to Asia. The only way that I managed to get over there was to be an independent contractor, and just not take any contracts for a few months....
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brianinslc
Jan 15, 2004, 10:28 PM
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In reply to: most people in the U.S. have only 2 (at most 3) weeks of vacation time per year...
Yeah, whats it mean to be "on the dole", anyway? Ha ha...
Brian in SLC
A few from CB's website (that's an impressive tick list):
Selected Climbing Resume of Carlos Buhler
New Mountain Routes:
Extremo Ausangate, West Face Peru 1977
Baruntse, East Ridge Nepal 1980
Everest, Kangshung (East) Face Tibet 1983
Huascaran Sur, Anqosh Northeast Face Peru 1985
Ama Dablam, Northeast Face Nepal 1985
Pumasillo, (pt 5990m) East Face Peru 1987
Mt. Miller, West Ridge Alaska 1996
University Peak, East Face Alaska 1997
Changabang, North Face India 1998
Kokshal Tau Peak, Northeast Face Kyrgizstan 1998
Siula Grande, West Face Peru 1999
Milarepa, East Face Tibet 1999
Traditional Mountain Routes:
Mt. Kenya, Ice Window Kenya 1975
Huayna Potosi, West Ridge (first solo) Peru 1979
Ausangate, Northeast Ridge Peru 1979
Huascaran Norte, 'Paragot' North Face Peru 1979
El Altar, West/East ridge(first traverse) Ecuador 1981
Makalu, West Piller (to 8400m) Nepal 1984
Aconcagua, South Face Argentina 1984
Cerro Torre, Southeast Ridge Argentina 1987
Kangchenjunga, North Ridge (1st Amer) Nepal 1988
Cho Oyu, Polish W Ridge (2 man, alpine) Tibet 1989
Dhaulagiri, Northeast Ridge Nepal 1990
Dorje Lhakpa, West Ridge (first solo) Nepal 1992
K2, North Ridge Xinjiang 1996
Nanga Parbat, Diamir Face (first Amer) Pakistan 1997
Alpine, rock, ice and mixed climbs:
Andromeda,W. Shoulder Dir, 1st winter Canada 1977
Mt. Temple, North Face, 1st winter Canada 1977
Mt. Deltaform, Supercouloir, 1st winter Canada 1977
Mt. Kitchner, Grand Central, 2nd winter Canada 1983
Quarter Domes, North Face Yosemite 1978
Point Domino, N. Face, new rt., winter France 1979
Oh Le Tabernac, (ice fall)first ascent Canada 1981
Iron Curtain, (ice fall) first ascent Canada 1981
Magic Mushroom, El Capitan Yosemite 1987
The Golden Fleece(ice fall), first ascent Alaska 1996
Ten Days After, Wash. Col, 1st winter Yosemite 1998
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micahmcguire
Jan 15, 2004, 11:17 PM
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"the real ground," whatever dude. You want real ground, try Alaska. Real ground, try Argentina, Queen Maude's Land, or so many places in Canada. Just because more movies have been made about the Himalayas doesn't mean that it boasts the world's only "real" climbs.
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wallwombat
Jan 26, 2004, 3:50 AM
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In reply to: "the real ground," whatever dude. You want real ground, try Alaska. Real ground, try Argentina, Queen Maude's Land, or so many places in Canada. Just because more movies have been made about the Himalayas doesn't mean that it boasts the world's only "real" climbs.
I think the original question had something to do with the Himalaya having the majority of the world's mountains over 8000 m. It was an historical question and I do not believe it was aimed at dissing Alaska or anywhere else. Don't be so touchy. No matter how 'real' these other places may be, they are all generally at an altitude that the human body can handle and still function. Not too many ''Death Zones'' in Argentina or Queen Maude Land, just bad weather and intense cold.
Not that any of this matters. Any climb is a ''real '' climb. People should be less critical of places they have never been. I'm sure you would love the Himalaya. You should check it out one day.
Anyway, the Polish have done the most in the Himalaya. Everyone Knows that :wink:
The Wombat
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jurch
Feb 9, 2004, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: Anyway, the Polish have done the most in the Himalaya. Everyone Knows that
yes, in the 80s... but in the 90s the slovenians ruled :)) i believe kurtyka, kukuzcka, kieslowski and co. were great; magic line, g4, rupal face were way ahead of time... but hey, times change :), could list slovene ascents into infinity, hehe... joke, they were/are all awesome.
someone mentioned the problem with vacation... you can't do big walls if you aren't pro. many of these guys don't have regular jobs so this isn't the issue...
and i agree with your answer to micahmcguire...
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micahmcguire
Mar 2, 2004, 3:08 AM
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and I think the both of you can suck my balls
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wallwombat
Mar 6, 2004, 10:12 PM
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and I think you are a parochial poodle-walker who seems to be just a little bit oversensitive.
Believe it or not, the question was not about Alaska, or Queen Maude Land, or Argentina, or even parts of Canada. The question was about the Himalaya. It's not my fault. I didn't post the thread. It's just the way it is.
Also, if you choose to get your panties in a twist because jurch and I made a couple of brief comments on Polish and Slovenian achievments in the Himalaya then so be it.
My advice is, unhinch ya carkle and relax a bit. :wink:
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powen
Mar 7, 2004, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: There are, of course, more but certainly not as many as the Europeans. Big problem for the U.S. is that not so many people live near good mountains to get exposure to alpine climbing, whereas the Alps are so easily accessible to so mant people n Europe. Also, I think that Americans get nowhere near as much support from manufacturers, alpine clubs, and the public as do Europeans expeditions - there just aren't very many alpine climbers here as compared to the numbers in Europe. Even just bumblies like me who'd like to do moderate climbs in Asia have a very difficult time doing so due to the amount of time required - most people in the U.S. have only 2 (at most 3) weeks of vacation time per year. You just can't get to any interesting places in the Himalaya in that amount of time. But Europeans, who get 4-6 weeks of vacation time per year can easily do a trip to Asia. The only way that I managed to get over there was to be an independent contractor, and just not take any contracts for a few months....
That and the fact that most American companies only dole out two weeks of vacation a year on average, as opposed to Europe's four week average... makes it a bit easier to bum around the Alps:)
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jurch
Mar 8, 2004, 1:59 AM
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apart from climbing... it's pretty interesting question what kind of life do you americans have since you're most of the time collecting every single dollar available. i mean, it definetely is important to make as much money as you can but sacrificing your life so when being 65 all you'll be able to say is ''cool, now i have plenty of money. crap, i'm old and i can't get it up no more...''
i don't know... there's just plenty other stuff than money :)
wallwombat, where are you from? you polish? location australia? :)
regards...
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Mar 8, 2004, 3:03 AM
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[quote:57582d4d7e="jurch"]apart from climbing... it's pretty interesting question what kind of life do you americans have since you're most of the time collecting every single dollar available. i mean, it definetely is important to make as much money as you can but sacrificing your life so when being 65 all you'll be able to say is ''cool, now i have plenty of money. crap, i'm old and i can't get it up no more...''
i don't know... there's just plenty other stuff than money :)
wallwombat, where are you from? you polish? location australia? :)
regards...[/quote:57582d4d7e]
this is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever read on this website. That says a lot because this website is pretty dumb. I mean, look at all the posts so far...mistakes, misnomers, and poor form all around.
hmmm...where do i begin?
first of all, you coated this post with words like "himalaya" and "accomplishments" in order to dis americans. that is your primary motive here and it comes through your terrible writing like the bad smell of Eastern European food, which is obviously where you are from.
The difficulties of climbing with "altitude" and a "death zone" (as arbitrary and false as that word actually is) is just as stupid a comment as saying that a hard sport route is harder than a hard trad climb. Yes, the Himalayas are rad, but the 8,000m peaks of the Himalayas are not rad. Those well known high peaks, the ones that build climbers' resumes, have become stomping grounds for stupid european asholes who make a "career" by climbing some stupid route on a stupid tall peak.
If Americans haven't done much in the Himalayas, it's not because of any inferiority as alpinists (as you suggest), and it's not because we're consumed with making money (as you explicitly say). American alpinists are rad because they go and do stuff that has nothing to do with making a name as a climber. There are no real sponsorships of alpinists, as there are in Europe. Therefore the climbing, and the climbing objectives that American alpinists choose has nothing to do with silly and arbitrary goals on big-name 8,000 meter peaks.
American alpinists are concerned with the really beautiful lines, even if they're on smaller and less well known peaks. American alpinists are more true to alpinism than the impoverished Eastern Europeans who climb whatever stupid peak they can think of to make a name for themselves and get some money. How dare you say that Americans have a lesser quality of life. Your life is no doubt just as consumer driven and you, no doubt, will wake up at 65 and make some idiotic but poor justifications about how you really lived life. Go ahead bud, do whatever it takes to make yourself feel better.
Now, to answer your question.
Yes, American alpinists have done a great deal in the himalayas. Maybe not in terms of peak bagging, or repeating routes in a new fastest time.
Have you heard of John Bouchard? He's about three or four times the climber of your stupid, lying-about-routes Tomaz Humar.
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alwaysforward
Mar 8, 2004, 6:44 AM
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In reply to: My panties are in a bunch.
Relax.
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jurch
Mar 9, 2004, 8:26 PM
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hmm... i wouldn't even go into my view of america and its society, filled with over-proud-so-patriotic rednecks... sadly, you prove the point of many non-americans...
i'm still sure that there (on this forum and in the usa) are plenty of normal and intelligent guys...
my writing. well, english is not my first language, but i'm sure i'm very understandable. besides, i believe no one writes in a very formal form...
how many foreign languages do you speak? emm...
the whole question about americans in himalaya was posted just because i wasn't too familiar with the topic and i simply wanted to know more. and i'm not trying to dis americans (even though you're a perfect reason to do so).
next... am. alpinists inferior? don't think i've ever said that. so you make yourself pretty pointless. but not as much as in following crap you've written...
yes, 8000ers really have something magical about them. however, that doesn't mean that europeans are getting up their stupid faces and ridges just for money and fame. if you'd read some books, you would know better. of course the sponsorship makes things much easier, but the sponsors primarily just provide the equipment.
however, i think the russians are pretty crazy about setting new routes on big walls (well, they missed the first decades of himalayan mountaineering), so they are pretty much only ones going for fame.
the one about repeating routes in a new fastest time really made me laugh :))) where did you get that shit is beyond me... you've just proved your poor knowledge.
and at the end... never heard that humar lied about his accomplishments. there was once a thing about tomo cesen, but humar... don't think so. oh, and if i mentioned him few times, that doesn't necessarilly mean i'm his no.1 fan, right? there are plenty great climbers and i also believe climbing isn't and shouldn't be about competition...
john bouchard... not familiar. please enlighten me.
what's wrong with you anyway? jealous in some weird way?
regards...
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