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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 3:46 PM
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dmt
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timstich
Jun 20, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Addiction is a lot more voluntary than you are giving it credit here. All of these studies that show this and that about biology are not even close to explaining addiction. You're a rational person, Dingus. You just never stopped climbing because it really didn't interfere catastrophically with your life. Not really. If it caused you to lose your job, your house, and your family, then it would really be interfering. Even most heroin users who kick do it cold turkey. All that crap about needing methadone to come down and the horrible physical effects of withdrawal is horseshiot.
When the water in the well quenches your thirst, you go back. If it makes you puke, you look elsewhere. If you get used to the puking, then it takes more willpower to look elsewhere.
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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: Addiction is a lot more voluntary than you are giving it credit here.
Are you related to Laura Slessinger by any chance? hehe.
In reply to: All of these studies that show this and that about biology are not even close to explaining addiction.
What is? Your post? I'm sorry, but choice doesn't even come close to explaining it either. And perhaps you can accomodate the existence of crack babies in your theory. I eagerly anticipate your rebuttal!
At what age did you learn to climb by the way, to get this back on topic?
And no offence intended Dr!
DMT
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cracklover
Jun 20, 2003, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: I wonder about the differences of those who have learned to climb well into adulthood... are they less attached?
Okay, I'll bite. I've heard that addiction runs in families. I knew a guy in college who, having a reformed alcoholic for a parent, wouldn't touch booze. The principle was the same one you mentioned - it's easier to stop before you start, than after you get addicted.
This raises another interesting issue. Is it possible to be particularly susceptible to certain forms of addiction? This guy certainly thought so. He figured he would be pretty much addicted with that first sip. What's that got to do with climbing?
I started climbing at 28. In retrospect, it was kind of like running accross a circuit-breaker in your basement you never noticed, flipping it on to see what it does, and then walking upstairs to find that there's another wing of your house which you never noticed until the lights turned on. The wiring was all there, the doors and windows open - and once I saw the lights I just walked through the door - instant addict.
Of course there were pre-cursors. As a child, there's no school I went to, or house I lived in which I didn't climb all over. So you probably could've pegged me from a mile away. "There's one - he's addicted, but he doesn't know it yet."
GO
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fredbob
Jun 20, 2003, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: I wonder about the differences of those who have learned to climb well into adulthood... are they less attached? Less obsessive? More balanced?
The answers are as individual as the people who climb. Like you, I started when a mere teen and continue to climb 30+ years later (though I find that my obsessiveness with climbing runs in cycles).
Of other climbers I know who started about when I did, the results vary: Some no longer climb (of these some climbed a few years and quit, others a long time then quit for various reasons); Some still climb, but not as obsessively; Some climb as much or more than ever; Some climb infrequently; Some faded away from climbing.
Some people get more easily encumbered (sucked into, trapped, or ??) into a conventional life. Others rebel and (either willingly or unwittingly) pay the price society metes out to those who don't fit the round hole.
Sometimes climbing is fun, other times a task-master, but the longer I climb and the more sacrifices (real and imagined) I make to keep climbing, the more unthinkable it would be to just give it up (which I have no intention of doing).
Maybe it serves a touch-stone or foundation that gives a sense of proportion and balance to the rest of the chaos. Maybe climbing is more real than the constructs in which we exist on a day to day basis.
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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 7:15 PM
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Interesting thoughts, all. Thanks.
I believe there is a profound difference between having an impluse and controlling it. Addiction springs from the impulse. So-called cures stem from learning to control those impulses. But if the urge remains, acted upon or not...
I still think about climbing every day. I don't always succumb to the temptation to chuck it all and get after it. OK, I manage enough self control to have a steady, good paying job and a wonderful family and a nice house with 3 cars in the driveway. Cool. And my climbing dedication too answers to nature's roadmap... the sine wave.
But deep down inside, hardwired into my nervous system, is a continuous burning, squirming, nagging, insistent urge... it's always there, sometimes louder than others, but there nevertheless. Like the voices in my head. And I have at times risked those other things I cherish in order to chase the dragon once more, more than anyone but me knows. I'm not assigning blame nor am I seeking to excuse any irresponsible behavior on my part. I choose to act upon my impulses. I choose free will. A long time ago I made a very conscious decision to spend some of the energy others pour into career and wealth and whatever, into my adventure sports, climbing and skiing in particular. I'm spending my retirement money now, in other words. I'm sure I'll regret it later, but hey, least I'll have gotten in a few pitches and a few turns before I settle into the trailer park down in Tucson. Not bad for a 9 to 5er.
I'm not saying post teenage climbers don't suffer the same risks or worse. I am suggesting that for some of us it may offer a little piece of the puzzle... "why do I climb and why have I always felt this way?" Why indeed? Do we have the courage to look at our own souls from every angle, examine every facet?
DMT
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timstich
Jun 20, 2003, 7:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Addiction is a lot more voluntary than you are giving it credit here. Are you related to Laura Slessinger by any chance? hehe.
Never read any of her stuff. But I do have a new book for you to check out. Jacob Solum's "Saying Yes" I've read his essays over the years and enjoy his writing. He has some interesting counter arguments to the now popular view of addiction as biology and disease.
Anyway, like you implied, addiction is neither all about biology nor one's environment. It will always be inextricably linked. But free will almost without exception eventually trumps biology in the end.
So I would say the whole addicted to climbing thing is just an illusion. You could quit if you so chose to, but there really is no argument to support quitting. It's part of who you are now and most would agree that it's a good thing. Also, we don't say that one is "addicted to his family" if he likes to spend time with them more than what could be considered "normal" do we?
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timstich
Jun 20, 2003, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: I'm spending my retirement money now, in other words. I'm sure I'll regret it later, but hey, least I'll have gotten in a few pitches and a few turns before I settle into the trailer park down in Tucson. Not bad for a 9 to 5er.
You're a smart man, Dingus. If one always plans to save it all up in order to live in the future, it's a pity when that future never comes. Let me know what kind of trailer you end up getting. We'll both be needed that RV beta one day! That's a great retirement option. No lawns to mow and if the neighbors get restless, asta la vista baby.
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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: So I would say the whole addicted to climbing thing is just an illusion.
Allusion maybe, but certainly not illusion. Climbing for all but the worst climbaholic is probably no more than very obsessive at the most, I'll grant you that. But I bet more than a few of us have gotten a real physical hankering for adrenaline and it's cousins, the antipation of going climbing and the after effects of having done it. It's physical and that takes it into the realm of bona fide addiction in my opinion. I could drop a few names but it would be disrespectful. You know the people I'm tlaking about.
You stoners out there know EXACLY what I'm talking about too, dontchya???
CHRONIC!!!
DMT
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climber1
Jun 20, 2003, 11:09 PM
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I started back in the 1979 when I was twenty-five. Got out of it in 1989 after a major scare while leading. Took up marathoning and cycle racing. After five years of that I realised that I was lacking something in my life..... climbing. Started back into it in 1994 and still at it. Do I have the same passion for it as when I started? hard to say it ebbs and flows. I no longer feel that I need to climb every weekend(IMHO that only leads to burnout) I try to experience all aspects of climbing; from bouldering to mountaineering. I hope to be climbing when I am seventy as there really isn't anything else like standing on a Sierra summit or experiencing a late fall afternoon in Johua Tree.
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pinkamy
Jun 21, 2003, 1:44 AM
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I'm a teen and I climb but I wouldn't consider myself addicted. There are definately more important things. You have to put things into perspective: you climb rocks! It's not anything monumental in terms or world peace or anything. It's just a fun, good for you hobby.
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climber49er
Jun 21, 2003, 2:35 AM
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I think that some folks just have an addictive sort of personality, I guess more accurately, obsessive. I have for as long as I can remember been totally consumed by SOME passion, hooby, activity, whatever.
age 6 - Legos
age 12 - Drugs
Age 16 - Snowboarding
Age 24 - Music
Age 32 - Climbing
This is just a snapshot of my MANY obsessions I have had. It just seems that once I find something I enjoy, it sort of takes over my life for a while until I get a bit bored with it and something else comes along.
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pinkamy
Jun 21, 2003, 3:21 AM
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Yeah, people tend to be that way.
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bigwalling
Jun 21, 2003, 4:14 AM
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I totally agree with teenage addiction. I'm truely addicted to aid. Anything that has nailing or hooking on it. Sometimes I don't even find it fun(though ussally this isn't the case). But I'm an addict. No matter how much I want to do other types of climbing I can't take a long break from aid. I just love seeing the hooks flex. The pounding of pins gives me a special feeling. It is honestly an addiction! I'm not giveing it up anytime soon.
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vtposer
Jun 21, 2003, 4:46 PM
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My girlfriend says Im addicted to four things: beer, weed, climbing, and blowjobs.
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timstich
Jul 18, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Finally, someone says something REASONable. From www.reason.com
RE: Addiction
Do we really need to look at rat brains or rat behavior to know that people often have trouble resisting tasty foods? That they crave them and feel worse without them? That they try to cut back in an effort to lose weight but often "relapse" because of the pleasure and comfort the food provides? Few facets of life in 21st century America are more familiar than the conflict between the enjoyment of food and the desire to be thin. Burgers and fries are addictive in the sense that any source of pleasure (or relief) can be the focus of a hard-to-break habit. The question is, so what?
Posted to "Hit and Run" by Jacob Sullum
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norskagent
Jul 18, 2003, 6:32 PM
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I named a 5.11 tr at Roxboro, N.C. "teenage wasteland"...due to all the graffiti on the rocks, broken beer bottles and trash about, glass shards in the big holds, etc., all left by the local redneck kids, they never realized they had a climbing option outlet to exploit...they were addicted to waste.
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noshoesnoshirt
Jul 18, 2003, 6:45 PM
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timstitch wrote:
"If it caused you to lose your job, your house, and your family, then it would really be interfering."
To paraphrase Todd Skinner, "If you really want to be a climber, quit your job, sell your house, ditch your girlfriend, and climb."
Maybe it is an addiction, maybe it isn't, but i'd rather climb than get a blowjob.
oh yeah, there's a "Teenage Wasteland" at Mt. Magazine also.
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dingus
Jul 18, 2003, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: I named a 5.11 tr at Roxboro, N.C. "teenage wasteland"...due to all the graffiti on the rocks, broken beer bottles and trash about, glass shards in the big holds, etc., all left by the local redneck kids, they never realized they had a climbing option outlet to exploit...they were addicted to waste.
Right on. I grew up with those guys. Well, we lived in rural Tennessee, but its the same thing. *Some of us* did climb and we did not appreciate getting bombed with beer bottles and the like.
We climbed frequently at a crappy limestone cliff on Turnbull Creek we called Big Frog. Jr. Bishop and I used to skip school and go climbing. We had a route right up the prow of the thing that was like 5.easy if you knew how to do it. So we soloed it all the time.
ANYWAY, we layed out of school one day and went down to Big Frog. We're down there playing "I dare you" when we hear this odd whistling sound, then bang! A beer bottle explodes right in between us!
If you knew how, you could drive almost to the top of the cliff on an old logging road. Obviously someone was up there, getting drunk and being a redneck. Jr. and I didn't remark on the fact that it was 10 am... a bit early even on the redneck scale of getting hammered. We were too busy hollering, trying to get them to stop.
To no avail. A barrage of bottles began raining down, some near, some far. They couldn't hear us over the wind. We traversed over one way only to scurry back the other when it seemed as though we were being tracked. Finally we sought shelter in a shallow chimney high on our dot easy climb.
Eventually the bombing stopped and once you're in that chimney it's easier to go up rather than down. After a few minutes of calm we climbed up, me first, exited the chimney at an overhang with the trick move, then vertical jug hauling for about 20 feet to the top. The cliff sort of ran into a steep dirt slope in the trees and within 10 feet of that was the flat top of Big Frog.
I got established on the dirt slope, grabbed a stout root and looked back down, waiting for Jr. to clear the roof. Presently he levered out onto the face and gave me a peace sign. I turned and did that little sprint up the final five feet, you know the deal. Do it on boulders a lot as they round out...
Well, there was this dude standing there as I came up. He was a biker; leather pants, T'shirt, sleeveless jacket, shades, a biker. He was looking in my direction as I came into his view. Hehe, I laugh to this day!
Picture it from his perspective. You're an early 20's loser in a biker gang called the Outlaws. You and your budds are out goofing off, same as Jr. and me. Cept you've been drinking for a couple of hours and already have a pretty good buzz on. There are 6 of you and the 1st 12 pack has already been jettisoned. You're nicely buzzed and actually enjoying the view out over a beautiful Tennessee valley in the heart of spring.
A movement catches your eye... something dark, big and fast... real fast! From the cliff face, materializing out of no where it seems, comes this big kid, red faced, breathing hard with his eyes lasering into yours and he's coming right at you! Hah! You're the big mean biker dude right? Ain't afraid a no teenager hick from Dickson County are ya??!
Aaaaaahahahahahahaha! The big puss let out a shriek like a little girl, turned tail and ran back toward his buddies! I shit you not! I stopped in shocked, as easily put off by this unmanly display as the next. The dude ran like 10 feet over to where the rest of his pals were standing. He actually looked over his shoulder in horror, to see if I pursued!
They all turned and looked at me.
There wasn't a friendly face among them. Oh boy.... this wasn't going to turn out well at all. I could sense pending disaster. I was almost about to consider the imponderable.... downclimbing Big Frog while dodging full beer bottles when my forgotten but not lost partner scrambled up from below.
Back to the bikers perspective for a moment. You're half drunk and already had the shit scared out of you by this big cornhusker of a kid with long hair and chalk all over the place. You're looking right at him when his buddy comes up out of the abyss, grabs a finishing hold and pulls himself up to the top. Pandemonium!
"Daaaaaaaammmmmmmm!"
"Didjyou see that???!!!"
"Whafuk!"
And on and on. They were slack jaw amazed. They had never seen or imagined a rock climber in these parts. I'm pretty sure we were the first actually. No ropes, no nothing save our teenaged sense of immortality, between us and the ground most of the time. We had ropes and pro, just didn't use em much on this cliff for some reason. Like I said, it wasn't that hard.
There were four bikers and two biker chicks... and one of them was Lori from my advanced math class! She was chillin with the Outlaws! Lori and I had dated when we were younger, nothing serious and unlike with most women I've known, we parted on excellent terms and remained friends. She was just as surprised to see me climb up from Hell as I was to see her hanging with the Outlaws. The paths young lovers take, eh? And she was clearly as high as a kite too.
All's well that ends well. Immediately we were surrounded by bikers and chicks, hands slapping us on the backs, others thrusting cold PBR's into our chests, everyone talking at once, asking us questions, praising our foolhardy antics. I gotta say, it was a pretty cool turnout. We ended up partying with the bunch of them for the rest of the day, until it was time to go home from school. I even gave Lori a ride back to her place and that worked out well too.
Teenage wasteland... yup.
DMT
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dead_milkman
Jul 18, 2003, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: But I bet more than a few of us have gotten a real physical hankering for adrenaline and it's cousins, the antipation of going climbing and the after effects of having done it. It's physical and that takes it into the realm of bona fide addiction in my opinion.
Indeed... I hear ya, brother Dingus. Perhaps there's a doctoral dissertation in there somewhere. Ah screw it, that would clearly cut too deeply into my already precious climbing time.
In any case, I started climbing in my teens, but like the 'social' smoker who escapes addiction until that one week of chain smoking, I managed to keep the demons in check... that is, until I couldn't ride bikes any longer due to a little dose of knee problems about five years ago. And now I'm in trouble... but a good kind of trouble, you understand.
At least it's not opium...
Yours in addiction,
DM.
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cedk
Jul 18, 2003, 7:37 PM
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Noshoes: You've never met VTPosers girlfriend. Man talk about technique.
:P
Does anyone know if there's a route called Baba O'Reilly anywhere?
I used to think I was addicted to caffine but I gave it up cold turkey because I decided it was unhealthy and I slept better and consequently climbed harder without it.
I started climbing at 26 and consider it one of the most important things in my life. I've seen other people of all ages and abilities come and go but I'm here for the long haul.
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ambler
Jul 18, 2003, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: Well, there was this dude standing there as I came up. He was a biker; leather pants, T'shirt, sleeveless jacket, shades, a biker. He was looking in my direction as I came into his view. Hehe, I laugh to this day! Teenage wasteland... yup.DMT
Good tale, Dingus. Brightened my day.
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crimsontime
Jul 18, 2003, 7:47 PM
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I started climbing at 28, and I think I'm addicted now at 30. However, I've had several addictions and climbing is just the latest one. My goal is to get myself up El Cap this year or next at an average pace and just have fun with climbing after that. I'm having fun, now, but essentially I'm training. My climbing won't be goal oriented once I've hit the level I want. I hit WI5 leading on ice this winter, and that's all the difficulty I ever need. -and on rock it's just to feel comfortable leading most non-run out trad climbs up to 5.10b. I just want to get good enought to have fun and be competent.
It was the same for me with juggling -another addiction I had. I wanted to be able to juggle 5 torches smoothly. It took several years of practice, and then my juggling ceased to be driven by goals and I just enjoy throwing stuff with others. I also had travel goals and work goals that I have achieved that drove me. I just seek to be a whole person, as defined by whatever motivates me from inside. My next goals will probably be to learn to play music better. I play guitar and piano.
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delphyne
Jul 18, 2003, 8:28 PM
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I too started at 28, and am thoroughly addicted/obsessed at 32. Climbing is all I want to do with my free time, I climb 4-6 days per week (at the gym on weekdays, at the crag as often as possible on weekends), and my "hobby" has a large part to play in the fact that I'm single. I simply cannot imagine dating anyone who isn't a climber, and there just aren't any tall single climber guys my age around here (and I haven't managed to turn anyone into a climber in order to date me either :) ). Someone else said they'd rather climb than get a blowjob; I'd rather be single than give up climbing!
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scuclimber
Jul 18, 2003, 8:36 PM
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So everybody has heard the cliche title "adrenaline junkie" I'm sure. I think there's some validity to it... if you notice climber1's post above, when he quit climbing for a while he started distance running and cycling. As a former distance runner (who is much better at running than climbing at this point :wink: ) I can tell you that you can get just as much of a buzz/high from sports through endorphins (the natural painkillers in your brain that are very similar to opium derivatives) as you can through drugs. Interestingly enough, I think you'll find that people who participate in "adventure sports" i.e. climbing, steep-creek kayaking, surfing, etc etc, are more likely to participate in other sports of that nature as they look for another way to find their "buzz." That is just a generalization, it doesn't apply to all people, so don't go crazy on me or anything. :shock: I'm sure this is nothing new to anybody here, but I'm just saying that there is actual scientific evidence to back up the "climbing addiction" claim. My $.02.
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