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e_wire
Jul 21, 2003, 9:12 PM
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An experienced climber (a very good friend of mine), suffured injuries to his left wrist after falling 25 feet when climbing in the Montreal, Quebec region this week-end.
Apparently, a Green Alien "poped" after the climber felt. The Alien was placed at about knee level when the climber felt. The route was a 5.10b (named: Samourai) located in Val David, North of Montreal. Another climber, a very well know trad teacher in the area, reported seeing and earing the pro pop like a bottle of champaign. The pro was well placed, and didn't walk.
The Alien also looks pretty good, after examination. Only explanation from both the climber, belayer and spectator, is that the Alien slipped out of the rock due to some humidity in the crack.
It's not the first accident reported on Aliens, please be on the lookout for tricky placements!
The climber was operated Sunday and will most likelly suffer for several months. Hopefully he'll get back to 100%, but doctors are not that optmistic.
Tks.
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jerrygarcia
Jul 21, 2003, 9:19 PM
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From the tone of your post, it sounds like you are trying to lay blame on the alien cam and its makers. Ive used them many times and never had a problem with one coming out or "poping". Maybe the person using them should take care when placing it?
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killclimbz
Jul 21, 2003, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: From the tone of your post, it sounds like you are trying to lay blame on the alien cam and its makers. Ive used them many times and never had a problem with one coming out or "poping". Maybe the person using them should take care when placing it?
Agreed
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tenn_dawg
Jul 21, 2003, 9:25 PM
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What size alien?
If it was a small one, then you can have the same problems present while placing any small cam.
You have a much smaller margin of error as the cams get smaller, and as a result, bunk placements are much eaiser to miss as the cam size gets smaller. I have a feeling that it is not the brand of cam to blame, but rather the quality of the placement, and the inherent problems with small SLCDs.
Travis
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freudian
Jul 21, 2003, 9:28 PM
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I wasn't there so I can't say much. What I do have to say is that Aliens are ment for small placements... places where normally it wouldn't be protectable, but since you have nice small headed and small CU sizes with Aliens... you can protect it.
It's up to the leader to properly place the pro. That also means determining whether the condition of the rock and weather conditions permit the safe palcement of it.
If it came out, it was cause it was placed bad.
Andrew
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ricardol
Jul 21, 2003, 9:33 PM
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i've taken falls on very small aliens
1 fall on a green alien at about knee level .. -- alien rotated but held.
1 fall on a blue alien .. static daisy fall while aiding from top steps, next piece popped while i was bounce testing .. alien bit and held. -- it was a bit difficult to remove this piece.
----------------------------
small cams have to be very carefully placed.. when i place small cams i make sure that the area around the lobes will support the cam if it rotates or walks .. usually this means a crack that is of similar size in the sorrounding area..
... also the smaller the cam, the tighter the fit has to be, since their operating range is so small, you want to be sure they dont expand fully and pop out.
.. if the cam is still in good operating condition, then the fact that it popped has to be pilot error.
-- ricardo
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melekzek
Jul 21, 2003, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: The pro was well placed, and didn't walk.
How can you tell that, considering the pro pop out ?
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climbjs
Jul 21, 2003, 9:44 PM
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I'm sorry to hear that your friend was injured, but cams from every manufacturer have popped from similar falls. Even what appears to be a perfectly-placed cam can pop when loaded. Also, remember that short falls on gear (bolts or cams) are more straining on the gear, due to the lack of rope between the climber and the gear, to absorb some of the load. I do hope your friend is okay!
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kungfuclimber
Jul 21, 2003, 9:58 PM
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Having climbed in Val David quite a few times I know for a fact that some of the small cracks that would take that alien are not very good rock. It is quite possible the sound heard was actually rock breaking around the cam lobes.
You should go back and inspect the rock where the cam was placed.
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epic_ed
Jul 21, 2003, 10:27 PM
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A cam failed during a lead fall? NO! You've got to F'ing kidding me. Got news for ya, pal. A cam of any sort failing is not news. It happens all the time, and it's almost always 100% user error. If the cam is not broken -- such as a failed wire, a broken cam lobe, a snapped stem -- then it's entirely the fault of the person placing the cam. The error was either in judging the placement or the quality of the rock. Period. To suggest that Aliens are some how more prone to "blowing" than other similar SLCDs is ridiculous. I have taken quite a whipper on a blue Alien, but I don't necessairly credit the Alien for saving my ass. It was the right tool in the right situation. And I placed it well. Sorry to hear about the fall, but he selected the wrong tool or placed it incorrectly. It happens. Even to the most experienced climbers from time to time.
Hey, if you have some Aliens and don't trust them any longer, please send me a PM. I'll be happy to take them off your hands.
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philbox
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Jul 21, 2003, 10:34 PM
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I definitely second kungfuclimbers statement. Do go back and inspect where the pro was placed. The very piece that poped (sic) should be taken up there and fiddled with to align the scratches on the cam lobes and the rock. This should reveal much and please come back here and tell us what you found.
My first reaction is that the green Alien was not the correct size for the placement. Choosing the next size up could have ensured that the placement would hold. Alines are not optimally placed at close to full extension. It is better to place them closer to being overcammed.
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bobd1953
Jul 21, 2003, 10:40 PM
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I have been using aliens for almost 15 years and have never had a problem with them. Could have been a bad placement!
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epic_ed
Jul 21, 2003, 10:41 PM
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And Phil happens to know a thing or two about green Aliens that have failed during a lead fall. I never once heard him blame the damn cam.
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dirtineye
Jul 22, 2003, 1:04 AM
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I second what Phil and KFF said.
Just one small question, how long was the sling on the piece?
OK one more, were there any other placements that could have taken more gear?
OK one more even, how do you know hte cam was well placed and didn't walk?
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lola
Jul 22, 2003, 3:52 AM
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The climber had just taken a rest on his last pro (GREEN Alien). That's why we assumed it was correctly placed.
The sequence of events; he's climbing, had placed 2 already, placed the green Alien, went a few feet higher couldn't find/do the moves, downclimbed and rested off the green alien, went for another try, got pumped and as he was downclimbing again fell with the pro at knee level. It poped and he took a ground fall (25 feet).
His only injury is a broken wrist, (2 broken bones and 1 that did a 180º badly pinching a nerve.) that will need several months to heal...
P.S. Sadly, and this is absolutely true, he had quit his job the day before to climb full time on a 1 year road trip :(
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thedesertnomad
Jul 22, 2003, 4:00 AM
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It just so happens that my only "cam failure" was also an Alien. Though mine was that little purple SOB... it was the only possible pro and I knew damn well it was coming out if I whipped on it. Low and behold it did!!! The green one is big enough to handle almost any load. Obviously I am not sure of what happened to your friend when he... felt was it?!? I will say this though, I only carry two types of cams on my rack, Camalots and Aliens, I love them both very very very much and trust all but that silly little micro purple alien (yes I am quite bitter about the experience, LOL) I have used them in rain, snow, ice, heat, humidity, and very rarely on "optimum" conditions. I have yet to have a problem with any of them. I have however taught some people placement, showed them a "good" placement (that I knew damn well would pop) and prove to them how very very careful one must be with this crap. Let's not forget that when it comes to lead trad climbing, we are involved in a rather dangerous activity... and lord do I love it!!!
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philbox
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Jul 22, 2003, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: The climber had just taken a rest on his last pro (GREEN Alien). That's why we assumed it was correctly placed. The sequence of events; he's climbing, had placed 2 already, placed the green Alien, went a few feet higher couldn't find/do the moves, downclimbed and rested off the green alien, went for another try, got pumped and as he was downclimbing again fell with the pro at knee level. It poped and he took a ground fall (25 feet). His only injury is a broken wrist, (2 broken bones and 1 that did a 180º badly pinching a nerve.) that will need several months to heal... P.S. Sadly, and this is absolutely true, he had quit his job the day before to climb full time on a 1 year road trip :(
Thanks lola for that further info.
This extra info is quite illuminating as it demonstrates to me that there was a degree of load release cycling. This will typically walk an Alien or for that matter any cam in to a less than optimal placement or to put it another way it will no longer be in the place it was supposed to be. This is one of the mechanisms for failure, two lobes can be hyper extended during this load release cycle if the cam is close to its fully open position. I would highly recommend setting an abseil line up over the top of this climb and try to determine the exact sequence of events. It is not that hard to do.
Further to this load release hyperextending the lobes on one side, it is possible to see how this works by walking the cam in slightly in a crack and seeing how only one side of the lobes will do the walking and the other side stays stationary. The two lobes doing the walking will become hyperextended thus setting the scene for failure.
I will reiterate that ensuring the correct size of Alien is used for any placement is key to the safe use of these marvellous devices.
I am sorry to hear that he now has to blow a year long road trip. I`m sitting here cooling my heels too after a climbing accident and I still have 5 weeks to wait after having already waited 7 weeks.
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ricardol
Jul 22, 2003, 5:47 AM
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yikes --
i'm sorry about your friend .. and hope he recovers ..
.. i still seriously doubt that hte alien was at fault .. sometimes resting on gear will rotate the piece.. and turn a placement that would hold body weight into a piece that will blow on a leader fall ..
.. let us know if you guys can get back up there and examine the placement location and see if the rock blew during the leader fall..
- ricardo
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ptone
Jul 22, 2003, 5:53 AM
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Thx phil, I appreciate your accident/gear assesments.
Accidents leading to injury are tragic, and I feel for the guy, injury and pain and too much time away from the rock.
Just a thought to add...the granite at Val David is pretty coarse and full of minor crystals and inconsistencies in spots as well. Could be that the cam was placed next to an inconsistency in the wall of the crack, fine for supporting bodyweight, but under the force of the fall, the edge or crystal shattered out and the placement blew.
I think it'd be a great idea to climb back up and have a look at the spot where it blew from.
I agree with the idea that in almost every case of failure, the gear is fine, but the placement or setup is weak. Unfortunately sometimes this is the way we find out.
Here's hope for a speedy recovery.
peace,
-p
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dirtineye
Jul 22, 2003, 6:50 AM
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I still want to know how long the sling was on this piece that blew.
Phil, I don't think just loading and unloading has as much effect as climbing up and down with a dog bone or other short draw on a cam.
Maybe aliens are different, but I've climbed up and down over cams that were on long slings, hung on them, and not had a problem.
I have however seen a cam on sport draws walk all over just from climbing past em one time.
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e_wire
Jul 22, 2003, 12:48 PM
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I agree with your analysis. Unfonrtunatly, I will not be going back to Val David for at least 2 weeks, so I will not be able to provide the final analysis on the rock and the placement of the pro. If someone else from the group goes back there soon, I'll make sure they take the time to go over the area of the placement.
Tks for the info.
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neadamthal
Jul 22, 2003, 12:59 PM
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In reply to: Apparently, a Green Alien "poped" after the climber felt.
i've long wondered about a connection between aliens and the vatican :wink:
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e_wire
Jul 22, 2003, 1:00 PM
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Ok, lets get something straight. Yes the tone of my message tends to but the blame on the Alien. Yes I've used Alien a lot and know they can be tricky on some placement... And yes, I know that 99% of accidents are due to human error and not to the gear failing. Finally, yes, I felt on Aliens before and they held my fall every time.
This being said. The main purpose of my message was to raise awareness that some type of gear will be more tricky to place then other. That some type of gear, because of its design, might be more likely to pull out or pop from the rock. Why? Again, simply because it's more tricky to place then other type of gear.In my opinion, Aliens are good devices. They don't break or anything like that, but they are a lot more tricky to place then other type of caming device.
You might not agree with me, and that is fine. Everyone is entitled to have there own opinion. If, by these messages, we have raised doubt in only one person's mind, and for that reasons he/she is more careful when placing an Alien, this might save one climbers life. Then, this thread of the discussion group will have done it's job.
Now, go climb, and be careful on your gear placement.
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rrrADAM
Jul 22, 2003, 1:09 PM
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Pilot error, not the plane.
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troutboy
Jul 22, 2003, 1:16 PM
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A thought...
Resting (or falling) on a piece, then having it pull on a subsequent rest or fall is a common scenario.
It is essential to check a piece after a rest or fall to be sure it is still positioned properly.
This is not to say that this was not done in this particular instance, just a reminder to those newer trad leaders that may not realize a piece that "held" is not neccassarily "bomber".
TS
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