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isklimbing
Jul 23, 2003, 2:30 PM
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I've been searching around for a helmet and I see so many different kinds. (Now comes the newbie ?)
Can a molded jump bike helmet be used for rock climbing?
I imagine anything is better than nothing, where rock fall occurs. However, for an actual fall, could the polycarbonate plastic of a bike jumper helmet withstand a strike to the noggin' in your experiences? Of course, the ultimate idea being, don't fall. But I just wanted to clarify. Thanx!
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cthcrockclimber
Jul 23, 2003, 2:52 PM
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Obviously any helmet will protect your head better than nothing, but I believe if you were to fall and hit your head hard on some rocks it might crack and break your bike helmet because of the material that is used that isnt as strong.
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pehperboy
Jul 23, 2003, 2:58 PM
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Get a Petzl. They're light, they're rated to give maximum protection a helmet can, they vent well and don't limit peripheral vision as much as older models.
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redpoint73
Jul 23, 2003, 3:03 PM
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A helmet is indeed designed to protect your head in a fall. But you are probably more likely to to encounter situations where there is rock falling from above, or even gear dropped by a party above you. You might even find yourself in a situation where you are climbing at a cliff, and some stupid kids at the top are throwing rocks down. So even if you never fall, its good to have a helmet.
About the bike helmet, I've had this discussion with others before, and know of no firm answers or data. One might reason that falling while climbing and hitting your head is not much different than falling off your bike at high speed and hitting your head on a rock/curb/ground. Personally, I would rather have a helmet that is designed and approved for the activity that I am participating in. If you intend on spending much time climbing, you may as well invest in a climbing helmet. You will have the piece of mind of having a helmet that meets UIAA safety standards. There are some pretty afforadable models, and they occassionally go on sale (especially when the makers change the styling or discontinue a model). But of course, your assertion that its better than nothing is certainly true.
There are many different brands and makes of helmets, but really only a few different kinds. One kind is very similar to a bike helmet. Its just a shell of foam that sits directly on your head. The foam usually is topped with some other material (plastic) to help durability. When stricken with enough force, the foam will break to absorb the impact.
Another style is a plastic shell with a nylon webbing suspension. The shell takes the impact, and the suspension distributes the pressure over a larger area of your head. The shell might crack if the impact is large enough, but probably will not in many cases. This style is more durable in the long run than the foam helmet. The foam is usually exposed on the underside of the helmet, and gets scraped up or even pieces broken off if you don't take good care. However, the foam type is usually considerably lighter and more low profile/form-fitting than the shell/suspension kind.
The Petzl Elios combines the 2 types. There is a plastic shell with foam inside. I'm not sure what they were trying to accomplish with this design. Maybe add some durability to the foam type.
These are really the only 3 types of helmets. If durability is an issue (if you are rough with your gear) than get a shell/suspension type. The Petzl Ecrin is the workhorse and standard for many climbers. Its hella durable, but also very comfortable and adjustable. The foam ones are very light and comfortable. Its mostly a matter of personal preference.
Other features to look for are : vents (very desirable if you live in an area that gets warm), and clips for a headlamp (if you ever find yourself climbing in low-light conditions). Try on a bunch of different helmets, and pick the one that feels the best and fits in your budget.
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curt
Jul 24, 2003, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: I've been searching around for a helmet and I see so many different kinds. (Now comes the newbie ?) Can a molded jump bike helmet be used for rock climbing? I imagine anything is better than nothing, where rock fall occurs. However, for an actual fall, could the polycarbonate plastic of a bike jumper helmet withstand a strike to the noggin' in your experiences? Of course, the ultimate idea being, don't fall. But I just wanted to clarify. Thanx!
Just to clarify, no climbing helmet that I am aware of is meant to protect your head in the event of a fall. This is a common misperception. Both the Black Diamond and Petzl web sites state this. They are designed and tested to offer protection from small falling objects. These helmets are typically tested to meet the CE standard called EN 12492 which requires testing by dropping a rounded 5kg object on the top of the helmet from 5 meters and also a pointed 1.5kg object from a height of 2 meters. Additionally, a flat 5kg object is dropped off-center (in three different places) on the helmet from a height of 1/2 meter. The American standard ANSI Z89.1 is even less rigorous, as it requires no off-center testing.
That is ALL the CE certification requires. There is no test whatsoever for a person falling in the helmet and striking a fixed object. Even the BD site cautions that their helmets "may offer" only some "limited" protection when "striking a fixed object."
Curt
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bandycoot
Jul 24, 2003, 6:54 PM
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thanks for the good info Curt. If this is true, if you are worried about a fall isn't a bike helmet BETTER? The foam is there specifically to deform and absorb an impact. Should there be sport helmets and trad/multipitch helmets with varying amounts and thicknesses of foam? I guess the foam may get into the way if you have to be close to the rock. If helmets aren't made to protect in a fall, it is interesting that so many people insist they protect against a head first fall and feel safer using them. I guess something is better than nothing...
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rocks4jules
Jul 24, 2003, 7:06 PM
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:P In my humble opionion, and especially in the heat, I prefer the Petzel helmet(s). It is not as insulated, however, if you should be using it for mountaineering, but I feel Petzel is the best yet. Be safe and climb on!!!
Jules
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jughead
Jul 24, 2003, 7:09 PM
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A helmets a helmet!!! ( get the camp startech :D )
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csoles
Jul 24, 2003, 7:58 PM
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Sorry Curt, that's not entirely true -- Jughead is completely wrong. A few climbing helmets do protect against side impacts (Petzl Meteor, Grivel, perhaps a few others) and would even pass the bike helmet tests (no point since they suck for cycling and certifications are very expensive). Curt is correct that most climbing helmets are rather lame in that regard (cough, Startec, cough). OTOH there are no bike, kayak, hockey, or construction helmets that will pass the climbing tests, or even come close.
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tcollins
Jul 24, 2003, 8:04 PM
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The Kong Scarab,
http://www.kong.it/doc305.htm
is certified for rock climbing, biking, horse riding and kayaking. I actually have this one and love it. It's light as a feather.
TD
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curt
Jul 24, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: Sorry Curt, that's not entirely true -- Jughead is completely wrong. A few climbing helmets do protect against side impacts (Petzl Meteor, Grivel, perhaps a few others) and would even pass the bike helmet tests (no point since they suck for cycling and certifications are very expensive). Curt is correct that most climbing helmets are rather lame in that regard (cough, Startec, cough). OTOH there are no bike, kayak, hockey, or construction helmets that will pass the climbing tests, or even come close.
I can certainly see intuitively where any helmet MAY be better than nothing in the event you bump your head on something--in terms of preventing lacerations to the scalp, etc. However, this is NOT the same thing as offering any meaningful protection in a fall.
The information in my post above was taken directly from the Petzl and BD websites. If I am in error, and any of these helmets are actually tested and certified for head protection when falling, I would be interested to see the source of your information. Thanks.
Curt
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sspssp
Jul 24, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: Can a molded jump bike helmet be used for rock climbing?
Again, as you can see, opinions vary.
If you're not that desperate for cash, you might as well buy a helmet intended for climbing. Your brain's pretty important, right?
On the other hand, if you are a cash-starved, starving climber (or just starting out and want to buy other things), go with the bike helmet. A bike helmet will put you way ahead of the other 90% of [foolish] climbers who don't wear one at all.
My $0.02 worth.
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davidji
Jul 24, 2003, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: OTOH there are no bike, kayak, hockey, or construction helmets that will pass the climbing tests, or even come close.
Thanks Clyde!
How would bike helmets fall short on the climbing helmet tests? I avoid them for climbing primarily for (in order): comfort, style, pebble protection. OTOH, I imagine their poor fall-protection is still better than that offered by my Ecrin Roc.
Any thoughts on the protection offered by my old-school, looks-like-an-old-motorcycle-helmet Joe Brown climbing helmet?
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 24, 2003, 9:14 PM
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I was working a new rt back in the days before I started wearing a helmet all the time and after several wild leader falls I went into my buddys car and stole his girlfiends bike helmet for a little confidence booster. My feeling is that while it will certainly look dorky the bike helmet will offer fairly good protection in a pinch and may even be better than a real climbing helmet for falling related injuries. I thought the metor and that ugly foam BD helmet were both intended for falling protection?
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csoles
Jul 24, 2003, 9:59 PM
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Sorry, can't provide data since this came from conversations with the designers when I visited the factories and test labs in Europe. Bike helmets can't absorb nearly as much impact from falling objects and are worthless if the rock is pointed. Best thing I can say about JB is it strengthens the neck muscles.
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curt
Jul 24, 2003, 10:33 PM
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davidji,
In reply to: How would bike helmets fall short on the climbing helmet tests? I avoid them for climbing primarily for (in order): comfort, style, pebble protection. OTOH, I imagine their poor fall-protection is still better than that offered by my Ecrin Roc.
Curt
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micahmcguire
Jul 24, 2003, 11:17 PM
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the nice thing about alot of climbing helmets that beats alot of other kinds of helmets is that the material isn't resting directly on your head. on my helmet, the cap portion of the helmet is suspended above my head by a "crown" of webbing that makes the whole thing much more shock absorbent. This way, if a rock falls and strikes me on the head, the helmet can do more moving, and the entire helmet takes the force as a unified structure as opposed to the energy transering from the rock through a small spot on the helmet and into my head, saving my scalp from having to take as much of the force of the blow.
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watersprite
Jul 24, 2003, 11:18 PM
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Micah:
When do you wear a helmet? I wore mine at the local crag and I was the only one wearing a helmet, and felt kind of silly. so now it stays in the trunk of my car.
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tcollins
Jul 24, 2003, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: I was the only one wearing a helmet, and felt kind of silly. so now it stays in the trunk of my car.
That's a horrible reason not to!!!!!!
Personally, I wear mine, trad leading, sport leading if there is ANY chance I'l fall and even the times I haven't I've cursed myself for not having it on, and even on top rope if there happens to be a lot of other people around the top of the crag.
Curt, where are you finding the CE info for the tests? I was looking for that at work, but ran out of time before I could get Google to locate it. I was wondering b/c the Kong helmet that I have is cetified for a lot of stuff and I was wondering what the different tests were.
Thanks,
TD
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curt
Jul 24, 2003, 11:58 PM
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TD,
The CE helmet standard tests that I cited (EN 12492) are actually on the Petzl website, in the helmet section.
Curt
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micahmcguire
Jul 25, 2003, 12:42 AM
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watersprite, any time there is rock above me, I wear my helmet. I just don't feel good without it, kinda like I can't drive a block without my seat belt. The one that gets you is always the one you never see coming. Best to wear a helmet as often as you can. Can't hurt.
I also wear my helmet when I bushwhack, its so sweet to be able to point your dome like a battering ram through the brush and go at it headlong-literally.
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watersprite
Jul 25, 2003, 12:47 AM
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thanks, I know I should wear it. I was under a lot of rockfall last time I went climbing -a 6 in. rock hitting your noggin would really hurt...
I heard someone say that a beebee (spelling?) dropped from xx ft. would go right through your skull.
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micahmcguire
Jul 25, 2003, 12:57 AM
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dude, better watch out for all that falling space dust!! in a world where snowflakes kill, and hail is a bloodbath
nope. reseach something called "terminal velocity." Due to an item's ability to displace air, it can only fall so fast. For example (not sure on the exact #s here, someone could feel free to help me out on this) a human skydiver reaches his/her terminal velocity at about the speed of 150 miles an hour. The force acting upward on the BB (correct spelling-haha) does not have to be much at all to keep it from accelerating due to gravity's mere 9.8 mpsps. If you dropped it off of a 40' cliff or the 14000 ft wickersham wall, it would be falling at nearly the same speed, and it would barely hurt when it hit you-either way.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 25, 2003, 1:16 AM
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Watersprite:
You would be even better off if you didn't climb underneath people that are going to drop things on you. A helmet can only do so much.
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thegreytradster
Jul 25, 2003, 2:45 AM
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You are correct that the natural terminal velocity of a falling human is about 150 mph. Rocks aren't people. The smaller and more importantly smoother an object is the higher its' terminal velocity. I'm guessing that a BB would end up around 300-450 FPS. It would break skin but not penetrate to deep. Like getting shot with a pellet gun. The point? A few years back we carried a guy down from Tahquitz in the stokes litter with a quarter size hole in his forehead, just above the heavy bone in the brow ridge. The rock that hit him was roughly spherical and a little larger than a quarter It was about as heavy as a 45ACP bullet. 450-500 grains. To do that kind of damage it had to be moving better than 450fps. (300mph).
If you've experienced rockfall on mountains, (not 80ft crags) you know that stuff comes down at speeds approaching small arms fire not 150mph.
The best helmet is the one that you'll wear!
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