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dymondbak37
Aug 4, 2003, 11:12 AM
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Now I know what quickdraws are for, and I know what carabiners are ideally for, but, just to clarify, would I need to use quickdraws with cams and hexes? I was thinking about this earlier, and just wanted to make it clear. Thanks, flame if necessary. :evil:
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hellclimber
Aug 4, 2003, 11:22 AM
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Planning on trad climbing? Use quick draws as an extension on active or passive pro to reduce rope drag. Sometimes you require more than just a draw and use a longer sling instead. At other times no quick draw might be needed. It depends on the situation. Be careful. If you do this incorrectly the pro might be moved by rope drag out of the ideal position rendering it useless! You seem a bit unsure about this process. I would recommend climbing with someone who is proficient with this/take a course/read a good book on the subject. Just going out there and trying what works or doesn't seems a bit dangerous...
Take care and climb on.
hellclimber
Disclaimer: If you are a troll the following advice applies: Go free soloing, preferably above your level of comfort. No pro is necessary as it is only dead weight anyway. :twisted:
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dymondbak37
Aug 4, 2003, 11:35 AM
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Thanks hellclimber, I haven't started trad climbing yet, but I plan on it very soon. Love the disclaimer.
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dymondbak37
Aug 4, 2003, 11:37 AM
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100!!!
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one900johnnyk
Aug 4, 2003, 11:44 AM
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there's really no point in carrying more than 3-4 draws on your trad rack since you'll want to make "trad draws" out of two biners (which may be cannibalized from quickdraws) and a 24" sling. learning how to do this is important. also, assuming you're referring to wired hexesthe information above is slightly inaccurate. unless you're building an anchor (and sometimes even then) you'll ALWAYS want to have the rope running through a biner that is NOT connected to the hex by metal..... no flames necessary you're just curious. get "climbing anchors" by john long...
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hellclimber
Aug 4, 2003, 12:06 PM
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In reply to: there's really no point in carrying more than 3-4 draws on your trad rack since you'll want to make "trad draws" out of two biners (which may be cannibalized from quickdraws) and a 24" sling.
Good advice. Me and my partner usually bring around 6 draws but amount of gear you bring will differ based on factors like the length of each pitch and how much distance you have between pro. I do however prefer "trad draws" and as soon as we have enough slings we will probably drop the "sport draws" altogether as the "trad draws" are about the same length before you extend them.
In reply to: learning how to do this is important. also, assuming you're referring to wired hexesthe information above is slightly inaccurate. unless you're building an anchor (and sometimes even then) you'll ALWAYS want to have the rope running through a biner that is NOT connected to the hex by metal..... no flames necessary you're just curious. get "climbing anchors" by john long...
Yeah, my earlier posting was a bit inaccurat or rather dead wrong on this point. Listen to one900johnnyk here. I learnt once that you alway extend from the passive pro with a short or long sling. This is to prevent the pro from walking out of place as I metioned. The same goes for active pro, but they often come with a short sling pre attached. I am a big fan of cams and their pre attached short sling is the reason that you do not always need to further extend them (this must be the reason for my inaccuracy in the earlier post).
Another supposedly good book is Freedom of the hills.
Best of luck
Thank you one900johnnyk for describing my faulty ramblings as "inaccuracies" instead of ripping my advice appart as you could have done :wink:
hellclimber
(earlier disclaimer still applies)
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podunkclimber
Aug 4, 2003, 1:35 PM
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There was a new posting in one of the climbing mags by the UIAA or AMGA I believe, it was about the death of Goran Kropp (sorry if I messed up the spelling) while he was leading a crack climb, fell and had a beaner break. They warned against using actual quick draws for trad climbing, especially on crack climbs. I don't remember all the details, but if I can find the article I'll let you know.
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desertclimber
Aug 4, 2003, 1:53 PM
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Often times while doing a mixed (bolt/gear) route, quickdraws are fine ONLY IF the route is mostly straight. (Although some type of extendable is preferred) On occasion, you can use nothing at all and clip the rope to the biner right off the small 'sling' attached to cams, or the cord from hexes. But mostly, extend out slings from the pro, to 1. reduce rope drag, and 2. keep the gear from walking or moving too much. Think ahead and use an appropriate length draw/sling.
And... NEVER clip biner to biner to extend something...
Just my experience, and opinion... But... you'll learn what works if you're on gear enough!
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keinangst
Aug 4, 2003, 2:05 PM
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Make trad runners--2 biners and a sling of spectra/dyneema/nylon connecting them.
Clip the two biners into either end, then pass one biner THROUGH the other one. Clip the "passing" biner into the two legs coming from the stationary one.
You will now have a 1/3 length sling with 2 biners. Assuming you started with a 24", you now have an 8" mock quickdraw. If you unclip one biner from the 8" and hook it into JUST ONE of the three hanging loops, the sling will then extend to its full, original length.
I love that trick. Be sure to practice it A LOT before using it on the rock.
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petsfed
Aug 4, 2003, 3:58 PM
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The real key with quickdraws (as observed in the recent Rock & Ice piece on Goran Kropp's death) is the prevention of a carabiner getting jammed in a crack. If you use a longer, floppier quickdraw, usually it will get the job done. However, there are situations where such a sling is unneccesary. Splitter cracks that are essentialy straight lines do not need slings any longer than what is necessary to keep the rope and the quickdraw's rope end carabiner out of the crack. Tailor your system to where you climb so what you have works best for you.
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puma
Aug 4, 2003, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: I learnt once that you alway extend from the passive pro with a short or long sling. This is to prevent the pro from walking out of place as I metioned.
Some passive pro are slung w/ cord and in some cases, are fine to clip directly to the piece. However, wires are supplemented with extensions to keep them in place and to add dynamics to the system.
Lg
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thegreytradster
Aug 4, 2003, 4:24 PM
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You can never be to rich, to thin, or have to many draws.
Seriously, dog bone type draws aren't suitable for most trad areas.
I take one only with lockers on both ends for that lone bolt on the run out face section.
I typically take about 8-ea. 12" 2ea. 36", (tripled back) and a couple of spectra or gemini cord over the shoulder slings for threads. All with BD wire gates. I'm over 6' so the 12"ers don't get in my way when racked on the harness and seem to usually be about the right length for the areas I climb in. They do annoy shorter partners though.
The 12"ers when doubled work fine for most sport also.
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slabmaster
Aug 4, 2003, 4:47 PM
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We're gettin' close here. Another issue, and maybe the most important one is that a quickdraw is relatively stiff. They are a sewn piece of sling and therefore less flexible. They are typically used to clip bolts and then clip the rope on 'sport climbs'. It's easier to clip the rope since the draw is stiff and wont run away from you while grabbing it (which may be pretty important if you are pushing your climbing ability; clip MF, clip).
Trad on the other hand typically needs a more flexible sling since we don't want the pro to move at all (bolts typically don't move ;-). If you're wandering about the rock and your pro is on a quickdraw there is more of a chance it will loosen.
Can't really say sport climbs are more straight than trad climbs but in my experience they are. I just make it simple: sport climb -> use QDs;
trad -> use slings. KISS
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podunkclimber
Aug 4, 2003, 5:03 PM
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Right on brother, that's exactly what they said, I just didn't want to preach it. They (UIAA or AMGA) think the beaner broke over the edge of the crack during the fall. The quick draw was too short, and too stiff. Still haven't found the article though, it must be here somewhere... (sifting throught a moutian of magazines)
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phugganut
Aug 5, 2003, 4:07 AM
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In addition to the above, supplement your 24" trad draws with a couple of 48" ones for pro placed a bit off route, sketchy placements where you're concerned about your pro walking, and occasionally to reduce rope-drag. Also, although most any spectra/dyneema runner will work great, I prefer the newer metolius ones that are ultra thin & light. Youi might want to check them out & see what you think.
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sprtclimber
Aug 6, 2003, 3:20 AM
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how long should the draws generally be for passive pro on straight routes?
And for traversing routes? How thick should the webbing be?
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jt512
Aug 6, 2003, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: how long should the draws generally be for passive pro on straight routes? And for traversing routes? How thick should the webbing be?
Read a book.
-Jay
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thegreytradster
Aug 6, 2003, 9:57 PM
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IT DEPENDS!
Better than a book, go trad climbing with someone that knows what they're doing and pay attention!
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ricardol
Aug 6, 2003, 10:47 PM
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i find the shoulder length slings are more than long enough for most routes ..
all my trad draws are this lenght .. (i usually will carry 10 of these) ..
.. on few occasions i've had to join 2 of these to get the correct length ..
.. and in one occasion i joinde 2 double length slings to clip a fixed pin prior ot a run-out traverse ..
-- ricardo
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victorjohn
Aug 6, 2003, 11:20 PM
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Wow. That was amazingly civil banter, and very informative too. You guys rock.
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thegreytradster
Aug 7, 2003, 8:22 PM
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May have been a little to curt but there was a point.
There is no such thing as a "correct" runner length except as it applies to each unique situation. To ask this question this way shows a misunderstanding of some very basic principles, even though that may not be what the intended question was.
To answer 6" 24" whatever, would be at a minimum incorrect and perhaps dangerously misleading.
The closest answer I can come up with is, Long enough to prevent Zippering and rope drag and short enough to not risk tangling and flipping in a potential fall. That answer doesn't contain much more usable information than "IT DEPENDS" without practical application and demonstration.
Optimally (or even competently) placing trad pro can't be learned from a book, and certainly not a web posting. Classes may help, but the equivalent to apprenticeship is the way to go.
Most of us who are self taught have plenty of stories about the days we almost died. When you hear those stories around the campfire, remember that that's what they really are.
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