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crotch
Oct 20, 2003, 11:17 PM
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So I'm a procrastinator and free camping at Joshua Tree is something I care about. I'm going to write a letter to my senators and representative urging them to put a stop to any attempt to charge for campsites at Joshua Tree. After I'm done, I'll post it here. I urge anyone who cares to do the same.
Okay, now I'm committed.
10/21/03 - Update
Here's the letter I'm sending off tomorrow to my senators and rep. If you don't wish to craft your own letter, you are welcome to modify this one and use it to send to your elected officials.
In reply to: I am a frequent visitor to Joshua Tree National Park. I have camped and climbed in the park every winter for the past five years. I happily buy my annual Golden Eagle Pass at Joshua Tree National Park rather than buying it for less at my local REI, as I like knowing that my money stays at my favorite National Park. One of the best things that Joshua Tree has going for it is free camping and the accompanying relaxed atmosphere. Far from the crush of people and rampant commercialism of many other national parks, Joshua Tree is currently a preserved area of natural beauty and recreation opportunities open to all. The lack of amenities, like running water and concessions within the park, adds greatly to the feeling of camaraderie among visitors, and this goes hand-in-hand with the availability of free camping. Meeting new people around the campfire, sharing your campsite with both old and new friends, last minute spontaneous decisions to spend the weekend at the Park; all these would be threatened in the face of paying for camping at the Tree. I feel strongly that the beauty and wealth of our National Parks should be available to all who wish to experience their bounty. Our national treasures should not become playgrounds for the rich, and while I understand that any proposed fees may seem nominal, fees, once enacted universally increase. Increased fees usually lead to a call for increased services and infrastructure, two things that I don't think Joshua Tree National Park needs. As a jewel of the National Park system located within three hours of 2 of the nation's biggest urban areas (San Diego and Los Angeles) Joshua Tree National Park offers people from all walks of life the opportunity to enjoy the splendor of nature without regard to income. In the park, rich and poor alike can appreciate the beauty of the desert and perhaps become more sensitive to the ways in which humans shape their surroundings for better or worse. Each national park offers something different to its visitors: Yosemite offers grand vistas of amazing proportions, the Grand Canyon offers a massive and striking geological feature, and Joshua Tree offers rustic, simple, and stark beauty. If Joshua Tree is one of the last National Parks in the country to offer free camping, this is all the more reason to keep it that way. If people want a national park experience involving extensive facilities and a carnival-like atmosphere, let them go to any one of the many other National Parks that offer this already. Let us preserve the peace, beauty, and democratic ideals of one of our most precious natural resources. Please do what you can to keep camping free and accessible in Joshua Tree National Park. Thank you, Crotch Robbins |
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rvega
Oct 20, 2003, 11:22 PM
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Why do you think you should have the right to camp in the National Parks for free? If everyone just stopped paying for a campsite how do you think the NPS could maintain the parks as well as they do?
Suck up the few bucks it costs or camp in a National forest where there is no fee. Overall you get a lot for very little.
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bluto
Oct 20, 2003, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: Why do you think you should have the right to camp in the National Parks for free? If everyone just stopped paying for a campsite how do you think the NPS could maintain the parks as well as they do?
They're called federal income taxes. Why should we pay twice?
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fyreflii
Oct 20, 2003, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: If everyone just stopped paying for a campsite how do you think the NPS could maintain the parks as well as they do? . . . Overall you get a lot for very little.
I agree. It is a small price to pay for access to some of the most beautiful areas in the world. I suggest looking at it as a donation, otherwise find someone who lives nearby with a couch you can crash on. I'm more than happy to contribute if I know the money will be used to improve the park.
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rvega
Oct 20, 2003, 11:37 PM
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They're called federal income taxes. Why should we pay twice?
Well those income taxes only pay for a small part of the NPS services, and I'm assuming that those don't completely cover campsite maintenance. If you want clean sites with running water and clean bathrooms a few bucks per tent is hardly a lot to ask. And I suspect that if NPS just let people live in the parks without paying for sites, admission, or implement limits on length of stay they would be overrun with squatters. Its not that much money get over it.
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dpurf
Oct 20, 2003, 11:43 PM
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They're called federal income taxes. Why should we pay twice?
Well those income taxes only pay for a small part of the NPS services, and I'm assuming that those don't completely cover campsite maintenance. If you want clean sites with running water and clean bathrooms a few bucks per tent is hardly a lot to ask. And I suspect that if NPS just let people live in the parks without paying for sites, admission, or implement limits on length of stay they would be overrun with squatters. Its not that much money get over it.
Lets see here, I pay Fed Tax, then I pay to get into park and then i will have to pay to use a camp site. I don't like it. Sorry I don't agree with you.
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crotch
Oct 20, 2003, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: I'm assuming that those don't completely cover campsite maintenance. If you want clean sites with running water and clean bathrooms a few bucks per tent is hardly a lot to ask.
I pay my taxes every year with the idea that our National Treasures should be open to everyone regardless of income. I'm happy to pay taxes towards that end and I'm going to let my elected representatives know that I'm willing to subsidize my brothers and sisters who are less fortunate than me but would also like to have the opportunity to experience the magic of the desert camped under the beautiful rocks and Joshua Trees that are found in the park.
It's not supposed to be a playground for the rich.
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toonarmy
Oct 21, 2003, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm assuming that those don't completely cover campsite maintenance. If you want clean sites with running water and clean bathrooms a few bucks per tent is hardly a lot to ask. I pay my taxes every year with the idea that our National Treasures should be open to everyone regardless of income. I'm happy to pay taxes towards that end and I'm going to let my elected representatives know that I'm willing to subsidize my brothers and sisters who are less fortunate than me but would also like to have the opportunity to experience the magic of the desert camped under the beautiful rocks and Joshua Trees that are found in the park. It's not supposed to be a playground for the rich.
Agreed. And any campsite fee would be exclusionary.
Having lived paycheck to paycheck, and being the consumately poor planner that I am, I can't count the number of times that I wouldn't have been able to go if I had to pay to camp. Joshua Tree is attractive because, once you purchase a season pass, you can go for the cost of food and gas. Scrounge from the pantry and bum a ride from a friend, and you can still go even though it's the end of the pay period and you've run out of money.
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esoteric1
Oct 21, 2003, 12:11 AM
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running water?
obviously you dont get out there much vega,
and i would gladly clean up my site and yours too for a free site
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rvega
Oct 21, 2003, 12:13 AM
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I can understand why people don't want to pay twice but unless our government decided to dramatically up the amount of funds that go to the parks (which with our current administration is extremely doubtful unless that included cutting part of them down) NPS could not afford to keep the parks open at such a low admission fee (don't forget about those too).
So lets say you get four friends and go camping at Yosemite. It costs $12 per campsite. Admission is highest here and I believe (I could be wrong because I always get a Golden Eagle Pass) it is $8 per car. That's a whole $5 per person. I don't think that excludes any income tax bracket. The NPS is not out to exclude people, it just wants to maintain the parks as best it can.
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esoteric1
Oct 21, 2003, 12:15 AM
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WHATS THE ADRESS YOU ARE WRITING TO? ILL SEND TWO
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rvega
Oct 21, 2003, 12:19 AM
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In reply to: running water? obviously you dont get out there much vega,
My apologies on the running water statement. I retract the statement. I meant that more for national parks in general.
And I completely agree that for a place like JT a season pass for camping is fabulous, but with increasing use may not be financially sustainable.
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apolobamba
Oct 21, 2003, 12:19 AM
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It is all about empire building.
"This park needs showers. wider roads, more roads, a museum, hotels and whole bunch more crap to get more tourists so we can be on par with Zion, Yosemite......"
Every dirt road within 3 hours of LA will be paved for your convenience.
For christ's sake leave the place alone and don't charge. Less is more.
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crotch
Oct 21, 2003, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: WHATS THE ADRESS YOU ARE WRITING TO? ILL SEND TWO
My senators:
Barbara Boxer
112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510
Dianne Feinstein
331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510
My Representative:
The Honorable Susan A. Davis
1224 Longworth
Washington, D.C. 20515
Find the address for your rep at http://www.house.gov/writerep/
Also send a copy to the Park Superintendent:
Curtis “Curt” L. Sauer
Park Superintendent, Joshua Tree NP
74485 National Park Drive
Twentynine Palms, CA 92277-3597
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mtnjohn
Oct 21, 2003, 12:34 AM
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I think our taxes come up about 87 billion short.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 21, 2003, 12:57 AM
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Joshua Tree only recently became a national park, before that it was a national monument. Since it became a nat. park they rerouted the roads to suit RV's and added some vault toilets.
Now after 40 some years of offering free camping they are going to institute a fee system for camping? Why?
I am against this idea, mainly because it will fund additional destructive practices that have taken place at all of the other national parks. I am sorry but the history of the NPS leads to think that they think the best use of our natural wonders is to pave over them and build miniture disneylands.
btw yosemite is 20 bucks per car
josh is ten?
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micronut
Oct 21, 2003, 2:09 AM
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rvega, you have no idea what you're saying.
Alpineclmber1 has got it right, this is about privatization of "our" public land, not about matience funding. They havbe spent millions up-gradeing the roads so that a private company can "administrate" the camping, like the evil Ticketmaster, the same people who handle the wilderness permits for the Sierra Nevada. Face it, we can't have freedom with the free.
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soma
Oct 21, 2003, 2:25 AM
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In reply to: I think our taxes come up about 87 billion short.
That is atrocious and Canada proportionately is worse, I think? Oh well, we all know that the gun, alcohol and tobacco companies who own and run our governments (and blatantly kill us for profit) need there billions to hoard. Can't wait until I own one. SURE I WILL!!!
I add cheating pharmaceutical companies (seven day Prozac to defeat the patent is shameful), oil/gas companies (in 1990s there was an hydrogen powered bus (Commonwealth games in Victoria, BC)…. Where is the hydrogen powered car? And how much better, politically, would we be without that crap?), and Microsoft (because you know they are right now using cookies you to sell more of the above mentioned crap).
Dave
PS I turned my TV off 4 months ago and feel much better.
edited to correct an error about the hydrogen bus
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mike_hunt
Oct 21, 2003, 2:35 AM
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I started getting worried when they upgraded the toilets a few years back....
I'm in agreement with aplnclmber1 that the big changes were bell weathered by the upgrade in status (by Clinton's pen strokes) and that the NPS sees the place as an economic resource in this sense:
a) They limit (and encourage) usage of more mundane and sendantary activities.
b) They provide cheap "entertainment" to the masses, and PR a relatively safe environment in which to have "fun".
c) They slowly erode more aggressive outdoor behaviors (climbing, et.al.) in the attempt to reduce risk liability (insurance & rescue $$$$)
Nest step is to d) Build larger gift shops, keep the tourons on the roads and sell them trinkets. Maybe even get a food concession going.
The end result: Much higher use and impact (deterioration) in a much smaller area. Greater control of the user population. Higher revenue with less capital expenditures.
Good Ole' Capitalism !!
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curt
Oct 21, 2003, 3:42 AM
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Hey. If you want to have those new brick crappers instead of the old plastic variety, your going to have to fork over some dough. I knew those "upgrades" were a harbinger of things to come.
Curt
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jtme
Oct 21, 2003, 4:01 AM
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....................Like I said in the last thread on this issue, this Friday I'm going to be sitting in on a meeting with Curt Sauer the Park Superintendent of JTNP. We have a whole list of questions about the "hows and whys" concerning the camping fee's in JTNP.
Please feel free to PM me with any questions about the camping fee's and I'll make sure they get asked!!!
I'll post the results here!!!
Richard
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tigerbythetail
Oct 21, 2003, 4:35 AM
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Some of these comments crack me up! Why is eveybody so up in arms about paying to camp? The truth is, as Adam pointed out, that we've had it so good for so long we don't realize it - name a National Parking Lot or Money-mint where you don't pay to camp. Complain? You should have started your whining ten to fifteen years ago when the entrance fee was imposed. Complain? Obviously you have leisure time to devote to "public bitching". Power down your computer, save money on your electrical bill and pay the fee to camp... or go climb somewhere else where it's free. Please note Robert pointed out that the majority of visitors to Joshua Tree are not climbers at all but regular tourists - something lost on the typically egocentric climbers. You want free camping? Gain some knowledge about the area you profess to "love", because there are many legal options for camping in J Tree and the surrounding area - if you don't know what I mean than you should try harder. Lastly, remember you don't have to visit, it's your choice.
Upset about paying taxes? Get in line - sure we all pay taxes, but what about all the foreigners who visit the park system? They don't pay into the National Pork coffers do they? Not beyond the entrance fee for now...Anyone with a clue knows that the state of California and the United States in general are up the proverbial financial creek. The government is operating in the red to finance a now "somewhat forgotten" war on terrorism etc. at the tune of billions a week...The privatization of facilities on government land is old news and has been going on for many years now. Write your letters by all means if you will, but you're just pissing in the wind IMO.
Flame away...
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mountaingoat8
Oct 21, 2003, 4:43 AM
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You shouldn't pay twice. The problem is that you shouldn't have to pay it in taxes. Why should I have to pay to maintain a park I can never play at? The better solution is to sell the park to some climber fanatic who will keep it open for climbing and charge a small parking and camping fee to each climber. Then you don't have to worry about other people screwing with the routes, trashing the place or whatever.
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tigerbythetail
Oct 21, 2003, 5:01 AM
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mountaingoat8 wrote
In reply to: You shouldn't pay twice. The problem is that you shouldn't have to pay it in taxes.
Why is it you pay income tax and then sales tax and then property tax and then...
Wake up it's the way it is and has been for some time. Climbing in Joshua Tree? Pay the $10 entrance fee (Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Yellowstone are $20) then drive in and pick a campsite alongside eveyone else. True there are ways around all of the various fees involved, but the way to those methods are up to you and don't belong here. Don't want to pay the fees to enter the Park and then more to camp/climb? Go somewhere else where it's still free. Didn't anyone notice the change to Hidden Valley Campground that made it in line with all the others - the fact that now it's one way in and out? Perfect for a fee setup where you can't get away without paying.
Amazing the Park Service hasn't charged for camping all these years in Hidden Valley (or Ryan, Jumbo, Belle etc.) Consider it luck that we've had all these years to enjoy it for free, because it's sure to change.
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spock
Oct 21, 2003, 5:13 AM
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I recently spend some nice days in the valley, one night we went to celebrate to the pizza place in curry village, we bought beer at the mini mart and to big pizzas, but they wouldn't let us drink beer unless we bought it from their bar.
So the bar guy brings a park ranger and tells us we will get a ticket if we don't stop drinking our beers.
That's what our fees are used on, more park staff to breathe on our necks.
More fees, JTree more like the valley, is that want we want
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