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climb512
Jul 26, 2001, 10:14 PM
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First off, rock climbing is always dangerous.Nothing is 100% safe even when done correctly and backed up. That jug that has been on an overhanging route for 50 years all of a sudden breaks as you are placing gear.Bang, a 20 footer into the wall. It is never safe! only controlled danger.Secondly, what is a "cerifictios"?
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kriso9tails
Jul 27, 2001, 12:06 AM
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I don't think that climbing is dangerous at all, the vast majority of the time. When you compare it to rugby or football, it's probably alot safer. I mean you can die doing anything, but if you climb safe you'll stay safe, if you climb unprotected, that's fine, but that's when there's risk. Climbing is only dangerous if you want it to be (and some people want that. I personally have a better chance killing myself walking than when climbing. That's just my take on it. As for saving people; it happens all the time, usually by correcting fatal mistakes before they happen. I don't have any dramatic stories (of my own) but I've saved lives in this sport before.
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kriso9tails
Jul 31, 2001, 6:36 AM
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Most accidents are caused by innocent mistakes (well, there's no such thing in this sport) and negligence. I agree that it's dangerous, but it relly doesn't have to be. No one should have ever died mountaineering, especially now with all of the support and gear, but peoples' pride gets in the way. No rock climbing (I won't comment on ice because I don't know enough to do so) should be dangerous unless you chose to make it so. Trad is not at all dangerous. If you don't want to zipper out, place your gear right. When I find myself in compramising situations it's because of something I did which could have been avoided. If you know what you're doing, and you put time and thought into your climbing, then you are not gonna die, unless by some freak accident. I think I pretty much just said the same thing twice so I'll shut up now.
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clymberboy
Jul 31, 2001, 7:47 AM
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rock climbing is inherently dangerous. there is no geting around that. but with the correct training, equipment, technique, & ability, it can be enjoyed without reservations.
statistically, i'm sure that injuries are more common in contact sports such as rugby or football. however, rock climbing is unique in that its consequences or much more dire than most activities. incidences of injury/accident in rock climbing may be much lower than other sports, but every possible incident is very capable of being catastrophic & fatal.
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kriso9tails
Jul 31, 2001, 8:23 AM
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ALL of those things are avoidable. None those things are freak accidents, in fact, they aren't accidents at all. These are accepted risks that are preventable. Avalanches are well understood, in fact, many people spend their lives studying the conditions that will cause them. They can forsee avalanches often just from data. If you don't look into these things before you start climbing then you're climbing blind, and that's not an accident, it's negligence. Often enough, when people die from things in their environment such as weather, it's because they chose to ignore the obvious signs of trouble and get in over their head. Again, not danger, but ignorance. Rocks falling?! It's called a helmet. If you're climbing in an area when massive boulders are raining down on you, then it's probably because you didn't take the time to check the area and find out the hazzards. I don't know anyone who has died climbing beacuse they are all well informed on what they climb, and know the risks so that they are never a problem. You may have more experience, but if you and your friends are in danger so often, then you should seriously start taking a better look at when, where, what, and how you climb, because so far you sound like the people who I have to save from themselves. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong there. I don't see why there would be so much gear and science when you're just going to get cut down by razor ice, which is also avoidable, but people won't admit that because they want to continue on certain routes despite the danger. That's fine, but it can't be pawned off as inherent danger. Danger generally exists where you let it. Have a little foresight. Some of the world's best climbers die because of poor judgement and not some unavaoidable danger. I bet that if you analyzed every climbing death, 99% would have been avoidable. I read the post about your friend, tragic yes, but unavaoidable? The climb wasn't dangerous, just the way you were doing it.
I doubt that anything we say to eachother will change the other's opinion so I will refrain from posting here again. By and by 6 years is not a long time climbing, certainly not long enough to warrant the loss of four friends (I mean no offence by that, I know that would be a sensitive topic so I wouldn't want you to misinterperate). I know people who have been mountaineering for much, much longer who've not had whitnessed near so many climbing deaths.
I don't know your credentials and you clearly don't know mine, so it is unfair of me to comment on your practices, but I'll leave what's up there. I probably have the wrong impression about you due to the limitations of the medium, so this is it, my final word on the topic.
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-31 01:44 ]
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clymberboy
Jul 31, 2001, 12:51 PM
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i have to reiterate . . . rock climbing IS inherently dangerous. this is not a 'pawning off'. no matter how much one prepares for a climb, things can still go wrong. climbing, particularly alpine, is a dynamic, and to a large extent unpredictable, environemt. committing to a climb must include the recognition of the dangers involved. wearing a helmet is not going to miraculously save you life if a 50lb hunk of rock falls on your head. albeit, one can chose not to climb in an area prone to rock fall, but noone has complete control over nature to prevent it from happening in a not so prone area.
it boils down to the discretion of the climber. climb smart! kow your limits! know your gear! know when to retreat! be knowledgeable of how to escape unexpected situations! most importantly, climb SMART! yes, most accidents can be prevented.
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climb512
Jul 31, 2001, 2:26 PM
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try climbing sometime,then tell us it is as safe as say....badmitten.
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climb512
Jul 31, 2001, 2:43 PM
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certificates has nothing to do with climbing safely or not. it is about using your head and being smart. I ve seen plenty of book smart people get stupid because of lack of experience and common sence. You can take all the certificates and ill trade them for someone who climbs for REAL,with REAL experience any day.Paper is nothing more than something you can use to wipe your ass with if you cant back it up with real life experience.
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climb512
Jul 31, 2001, 3:06 PM
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i never said i was a world class climber as you are at the age of 13.....(full of Sh@#).But I do know what i am talking about before i run off at the mouth. I am not a 13 y/o kid whos dad probably climbs and has taken his girl out for a walk or two. I understand that most of your knowledge comes from books. but books are important.Like I said before if you were all that great climber and climbed all these great moutains and a 512plus rockclimber and all these certifacations i am sure a super girl like you would have been featured in climbing by now.You make Dan Osman look like a weekend gym climber.
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climb512
Jul 31, 2001, 3:14 PM
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Well by that response at least I know you are not telling stories about your age.
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kriso9tails
Jul 31, 2001, 6:12 PM
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I said that I wasn't going to add anything to this and I'm not; I'm only clarifying a point. Climbing a mountain, hell yeah, that's dangerous, but mountaneering should not be. The second term should imply a certain degree of mastery over the risk. My only real dispute is that you make it sound as if you co out climbing you have a 70% chance of dying. Well, hundreds of thousands of people climb, and only very few of them die directly from it.
Next time attack my arguments and not me and maybe I'll take you seriously.
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coach
Jul 31, 2001, 7:55 PM
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I have to say the I agree that climbing (any type!) is dangerous. I have never had the unfortunate luck to be injured and have only left enough skin on the rock to reupholster some furniture but my partner and I alway do everything possible to reduce the danger. I read a post earlier about a climber that threaded a GriGri backwards in a gym and took a fall which injured him. What mistakes were made? 1) The GriGri was threaded wrong, 2) he didn't check it before climbing, 3) his belayer obviously did not have the brake hand in the correct position where he could have at least slowed the fall. Three mistakes and he got injured. Many climbing accidents are a result of a series of minor mistakes which ultimately lead up to an injury. If you accept that climbing can kill you if you are complacent, and then do everything you can to reduce any mistakes you may never be involved in an accident where someone is injured, but don't say that climbing is not dangerous. Just look down when you are several hundred feet up and your brain should tell you!
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kriso9tails
Jul 31, 2001, 8:37 PM
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Hight can't kill you, falling can. Why is it exactly that you are in danger of falling? Is it because there was no other possible way to go about what you are doing? No. In general, gear doesn't fail, people do. Weather doesn't kill people, people's ignorance of it does. Worried about avalanches? Try a site like this.. I'm not disagreeing with you as much as you think. Anything that has been climbed and lived can be repeated and lived. In every account of a severe climbing injury (as in death or paralysis only) with the exception of one, it is always said if they had only done this instead. I don't blieve that most climbing accidents had to happen. I've almost died climbing, but not because of an inherent danger in the sport, but beacuse I wasn't doing it safely. That's fine, but if I die climbing it will be at my fault, and not at the fault of the sport. All I'm saying is that when people die, it generally could have been avoided. Many people die from injury in football, and many more are seriously injured. These are deaths alone from one country, and only in organizations., rugby injuries, These are the severe climbing injuries that I side with you on whee it's arisk, but not life threatening. All sports have injuries and deaths. It's not the "what" that I debate, but rather the "why." I feel as though we are not saying completely different things, but perhaps I am limited in my approach and not clear enough. Oh yeah, my dad doesn't have a tool shed.
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-31 13:44 ]
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naturalhigh
Aug 1, 2001, 6:27 AM
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I'm about to get myself into a big mess by posting here, but here's my two cents.
I'm done a fair amount of alpine climbing. Not as much as many of you (such as theorgasmicclimb), but my fair share. I've been lucky enough to have stayed safe and uninjured, as have my climbing partners. While there are some inherent risks, I'd have to side with kriso9tails in that if you really have your head in the game and pay attention to AND HEED all the warning signs, climbing (alpine, rock, etc) can be "relatively" safe. The only hard evidence I can offer to support this claim comes from the American Alpine Club's annual report "Accidents in North American Mountaineering", an annual catalog of climbing accidents resulting in serious injury or death. Looking through the past two years (2000 and 1999), I noted that roughly 95% (+/- 5%) of all the accidents were easily preventable, with the remaining 5% being due to factors out of control (freak gear failure, rock fall cutting rope, etc...). Based upon this data, I would have to say that the vast majority of deaths and accidents in alpine mountaineering and rock and ice climbing over the past two years were preventable.
If you have other information that you would like to share in order to shed more light on this topic, please do so. Personal attacks (say on my lack of experience, age, whatever...) will be disregarded. I have presented what I consider reliable information/data that I believe supports my position.
[ This Message was edited by: naturalhigh on 2001-07-31 23:32 ]
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compclimber
Aug 1, 2001, 8:01 AM
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I dont mean to have a pising match here but I was wondering what grade you guys climb? It seems that higher end climbers have a more relaxed nature to dying. This sport is dangerous all of us take a calculated risk every time we tie in, but if you look at the history books its those people who are (were) wiling to go a little farther that make ground braking ascents. To Koolkitty I would like to know what acredidations and certifications you have.
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naturalhigh
Aug 1, 2001, 8:47 AM
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Since I've only been rock climbing seriously for a month or so, I'm not that great. I've asked some people and they've said maybe about 5.10. Who knows exactly? But at the same time I've walked knife ridges on overhanging cornices teetering over a glacier hundreds of feet below, cut my way up 60degree snow/ice slopes and walked on snowbridges spanning deepblue crevasses with no apparent bottom. What I'm saying is that I'm more familiar with alpine/mountaineering than pure rock climbing.
As for my position on death... it happens to all of us, one day or another. I personally hope that it happens to me out in the mountains and not in my car in the city getting slammed by a semi-truck (or something). I respect life for what it gives and in doing so, also death for what it takes away. When I climb I do everything I can to prevent a fatal/serious accident. Of course, mistakes are made (i've made my share), and it's those which usually lead to accidents.
I agree with you (compclimber) that many of the advancements and breakthroughs in climbing have been made by people willing to push the envelope (Lynn Hill's free-solo of the Nose, for example).
At the same time, I will never be one of those climbers. My talent will most likely never come close to those of great acclaim.
Trying to tie this ramble together, I would like to say this: Yes, climbing has a great potential for danger. As a climber, I have accepted this potential and I am prepared to deal with the consequences (read "On Death and Dying" vg book). At the very same time, I will do everything in my power to make sure that the potential for danger is never realized. And I believe that in doing so (using safe practices and smart decision making), I can make my wilderness experiences relatively safe and free from injury and death.
FIN
[ This Message was edited by: naturalhigh on 2001-08-01 01:51 ]
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kriso9tails
Aug 1, 2001, 1:19 PM
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I was onsighting 11+ (almost 12-) a while ago. I'm still able, just out of shape.
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krillen
Aug 1, 2001, 6:45 PM
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Ummmmmm....orgazmo? I think enough people onthis board KNow kris enough to say he hasn't embelished at all on this board. I know I'd call him on it just for sport. He's a hardass climber and backs up his opinions with logically thought out arguments, facts and stats. So take your theories about shed climbing and relax. So you diagree about the danger level in climbing, when youget deep into it, you two are on the same page but are merely arguing semantics. CHILL OUT compadre.
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fiend
Aug 1, 2001, 7:35 PM
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Kris is definitely opinionated and stubborn.
He and I spent a few minutes arguing as to whether climbing was 'inherently dangerous' or not, and I dissagree with his arguments as well. As his brother I can restate that none of his arguments were embellished and all of his information came from documented sources.
He is definately not a poser though, he doesn't have any friends to show off to
Koolkitty on the other hand.............. she'll have to defend herself.
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fiend
Aug 1, 2001, 7:42 PM
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So everyone is happy now
Constructive arguments are more than Ok, let's just not get personal in the future so that we can all remain friends.
theorgasmicclimb, I read the msg you sent to kris, and want to thank you for handling it in the manner you did.
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fiend
Aug 1, 2001, 8:31 PM
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Yes, Kris is my brother.
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krillen
Aug 1, 2001, 8:42 PM
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I don't have a problem with you Orgaz, I just don't like to see people getting lambasted for no appeaent reason. Especially when I know him. All I said was relax, and I was tryign to play Devil's advocate. Everybody is good as gold. No worries?
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phishphan
Aug 2, 2001, 5:26 AM
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5.13- a thirteen year old girl....
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verticalearth
Aug 11, 2001, 4:45 PM
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y do we climb man only for that moment or fear of death to be seen in front of ur eyes
and y do u need a certificate to save a life
I had a near death situation some months back and wat I saw was that if u care enough and are sane try to be calm and do the best thing u think is right
the rules of first aid and rescue is
1 PRESERVE LIFE
2 PREVENT COMPLICATION
3 HELP IN RECOVERY
and the main rules are
1 evaluate the situation
2 check ur equipment
3 and donot go if u think it is dangerous (I know this difficult)
4 last but not the least keep a record of all that u do to save the victim even his vital signs record
all the best
p.s. be ready ot take responsibility of all ur actions and believe in them
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climb512
Aug 11, 2001, 4:54 PM
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i always keep a pad and pen handy just so i can record everything in a life saving situation, there is so much extra room when rock climbing..........hello, this is called taking the classroom a bit to far. probably taught by someone who has never spent a minute on the rock.
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