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spike
Nov 6, 2003, 4:59 PM
Post #76 of 94
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Hi Ricardo,
Great solo !!! My 1st wall in YV was soloing the West Face of Leaning Tower. Ben & I did Zodiac the second week in Sept. 2003.
We placed 2 pins on the route, both on P7.
It was above the Black Tower just below the micro nuts section.
That C2+ section up the Black Tower is scarrrrry, because if you do fall you will hit that 5.8 / C1 slabby ramp!!! Ben kept yelling, use the cam hooks . . . It was late when I started up the Black Tower, I turned my headlamp on when I reached the top of the Black Tower. The 2 bolt false belay, at the top of the Black Tower, no longer exist. The fixed junk just above the Black Tower are heads and a couple old pins. As I remember I placed a #1 Knife Blade in between 3 old fixed RURPs. I brought 3mm cord to use, incase I found old RURPs, were the webbing was missing. But the 3 old RURPs were pounded in so deep that I couldn't thread the cord through the eyes. The seam was so small were I placed the #1 KB that a #0 HB brassy wouldn't fit and the smallest Leeper cam hook wouldn't even come close to fitting. I didn't carry pins up with me when I started the pitch, the goal was CLEAN. It had been a long day, we fixed only P1 the day before and then blasted off the next morning. I yelled down to Ben that I needed the pins. I placed the #1 KB and high stepped in my Russian Aiders. The next placement was a #2 Lost Arrow. The piton scar was at the bottom of a seam just above a small 3" smooth sloping ledge. Because of the ledge, you couldn't place a nut and it was to small for a black alien. I tried to use a Leeper cam hook but it wouldn't fit. On the SUPERTOPO it says C3RF or A2. If one of the fixed RURP's would of had a hanger and the piton scar would of had a fixed pin in it, the route would have gone clean. Every time a party goes up the route, things change.
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climb_plastic
Nov 6, 2003, 4:59 PM
Post #77 of 94
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Registered: Sep 24, 2003
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In reply to: This is fairly simple. Every single aid climber posting here has defended the use of pitons, and explained pretty clearly why they are necessary and why replacing them with bolts is a bad solution. The only people questioning this process are free climbers who have never nailed, and therefore don't understand the process. Lets flip this back into your court. I don't like the bolts at a sport climbing area. Time to go chopping! I want to clean up all that ethical destruction I don't agree with. Couldn't you more safely and easily just toprope 90% of those bolted sport routes anyway. After all, there would be fewer bolts and less destruction to the rock, which is a good thing. You free climbers and especially the boulderers also really need to quit using chalk - that stuff has way more visual impact than every piton ever placed.
Not every single aid climber defends the use of pitons. There are some that won't use them and some that won't even own them.
The point that people are making about bolts is that you bolt them one time unlike pitons where different people will use them at different times. Just cause I get stuck somewhere I'm not going to put a bolt there but when you guys get stuck you put a piton in. I'm not saying that bolting is a good thing to do I'm just asking why pitons are any better than bolts because I hear a lot of people complain about bolts destroying rock but then say pitons are OK. Oh and yes that is a good point that the use of chalk is an issue that needs to be either limited or not used in some areas because it's ugly.
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climb_plastic
Nov 6, 2003, 5:06 PM
Post #78 of 94
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Registered: Sep 24, 2003
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Hey Junnos,
Are you gay cause you're definitely flaming. You think that quote was well said but it was a flame with no point made. Flames are funny but you know when you resort to flaming it kinda tells people you don't have a point to make and when they get nasty it leaves the impression that you are an asshole. Try to stick to the subject.
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junnos
Nov 6, 2003, 5:16 PM
Post #79 of 94
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Registered: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 217
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So I'm an asshole then, been called a lot worse. Do you really think I care what YOU think about me. Ummmmm, no.
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climb_plastic
Nov 6, 2003, 5:20 PM
Post #80 of 94
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Registered: Sep 24, 2003
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Junnos,
Alright I shouldn't have said that. Sorry. Really. I just think that I made some good points that didn't deserve to be flamed.
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capn_morgan
Nov 6, 2003, 5:21 PM
Post #81 of 94
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Registered: Oct 7, 2003
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Ricardo!!!, you da man. that said, I'm a litle confused about a few things. alot of things really, but a few of them pertain to this wonderful discussion. ok here we go.
1. we are talking about a very large ROCK arent we? now i fully agree that damageing the rock unesscarily is not in good taste or style. But We are talking about a piece of granite that was carved out of the mtns by glaciers (right?..) and then split open by other forces of nature. every time it rains or the wind blows some sand against the face of the rock it gets "damaged".
2. isnt it common for people putting up sport routes to bleach the route in preperation to KILL all the lichen and other vegiation on the route? or at least scrub it off. To me, killing living vegitation is alot more destructive than scratching a rock.
3. what is the reall motivation behind your arguments to "save the rock", are you worried that the cracks are going to get big enough that every free climber in NA will be there climbing El Cap and their increased foot traffice will cause erosion at the base of the cliff and fill the rivers with sediment that will kill off the native fish? c'mon, isnt it because YOU dont like the way it looks?
4. I assume that you drive a car and that if you think about it, alot of roads are built up with rock fill, ya know where that fill comes from? its from where they drill big holes in the ground and blast the rock apart with dynanmite. Maybe your thoughst and mental mastubation would be put to better use trying to convince miners that what they are dong is unethical.
5. any one who spends alot of time out climbing instead of sitting in an air conditioned house or driving around in an SUV has a much smaller enviromental impact than the average american.
Just my thoughst, feel free to tear me apart, I dont have anything better to do today than respond to someone complaing about people scaring rock when his name implies that he climbs inside, on a wall probably made of plywood that is made useuing all kinda of nasty chemicals using holds that are made out of plastic that could be derived from petroleum that was sold by some third world country to fund its military campaign.
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trad_mike
Nov 6, 2003, 5:22 PM
Post #82 of 94
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Registered: Jun 25, 2003
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In reply to: In reply to: 4. Are you an aid climber who is ever going to climb El Cap? If not, why the hell do you care? I don't get that question. So what if he doesn't climb there and still shows some concern and care about El Cap? Shouldn't it be you who is the one who cares about El Cap?....I mean you're the one climbing there.
Hard aid is like difusing bombs with similar consequences for error. Most piton placements are tiny seams where nothing else will go or old pin scars where offset nuts or aliens won't work. These cracks are too thin to finger jam, so holds are not being ruined either. Personally, I don't have an issue with judicious nailing on a route that already has fixed gear and has not been designated as a clean climb yet. Zodiac is a trade route that's been nailed to death already and only goes clean because of fixed gear.
As gear gets better, the routes on El Cap are going with fewer piton placements. The damage has already been done on the popular routes. Many only go clean now because pitons have opened some cracks up just enough to allow very marginal gear placements. The ethical discussion here is once a line goes clean, should all subsequent parties assume the same level of risk? At what point should a climb be graded as a C rather than an A?
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junnos
Nov 6, 2003, 5:26 PM
Post #83 of 94
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Registered: Sep 18, 2003
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Climb_Plastic,
Props back at cha'. :wink:
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wigglestick
Nov 6, 2003, 5:29 PM
Post #84 of 94
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Registered: Jul 27, 2001
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In reply to: The point that people are making about bolts is that you bolt them one time unlike pitons where different people will use them at different times. Just cause I get stuck somewhere I'm not going to put a bolt there but when you guys get stuck you put a piton in. I'm not saying that bolting is a good thing to do I'm just asking why pitons are any better than bolts because I hear a lot of people complain about bolts destroying rock but then say pitons are OK. Oh and yes that is a good point that the use of chalk is an issue that needs to be either limited or not used in some areas because it's ugly.
In all my years I have never heard anybody say that a bolt ruins the rock. Bolts may ruin the climbing, the experience, the sense of adventure, and the character of the route. But they don't harm the rock. Over time pins do damage the rock. So do nuts and cams. I have been on routes in the desert where you see a pin scar and you can just tell that hundreds of people have placed a tricam in that pod because you can see all the little dimples on one side of the placement. Gear will evolve and in my opinion pins will become less and less common. The trend is definately going toward hammerless climbing. But pins are still necessary on some routes, especially less travelled ones. Pins, like ugly white chalk and ugly black rubber which is smeared all over the holds (ever been to Rifle?) are a necessary evil.
Rather than condemning something you know nothing about why don't you cowboy up and clean aid some classic nail ups and raise the bar for everybody who follows behind you? Die hard sport climbers and aid climbers are equally guilty of aim chair quarterbacking about the aspect of the sport they have little experience in. I am not a strong enough free climber to comment on the conditions at Rifle and not a bold enough aid climber to comment on what goes on 2000'+ up on El Cap. So I pretty much keep my mouth shut and climb the best I can and try not to ruin the experience for anybody else who has to come after me.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 6, 2003, 5:37 PM
Post #85 of 94
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Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
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Biggest damn school of red herrings I've ever seen.......
Ricardo did nothing wrong. His style and ethics were pure.
And he's bad ass to solo El Cap as his first wall ever!
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ricardol
Nov 6, 2003, 6:59 PM
Post #86 of 94
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
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thanks for splitting the posts ...
-- ricardo
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jcinco
Nov 6, 2003, 7:21 PM
Post #87 of 94
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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I climbed the Shield with a partner and we placed about 2 dozen pins.
Ricardo solo'd Zodiac placing a dozen.
Nicely done, ricardo!
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karlbaba
Nov 6, 2003, 8:25 PM
Post #88 of 94
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Posts: 1159
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I soloed Zodiac in 1982. I nailed the crap out of it, because the gear to do it clean hadn't been invented yet, and because the repeated nailing hadn't enlarged pin scars for clean climbing yet.
Obviously I was less experienced back then too.
I climbed Zodiac clean with a partner in 2002. There wasn't much fixed gear on it at all, but we had all the toys. The section above the Black Tower was truly dangerous and, even though I'm an experienced aid climber, I felt I was rolling the dice by insisting on a clean ascent.
I'd like to see climbers make good faith attempts to keep routes as clean as possible, especially experienced folks who have the skills to pull it off. But I think Ricardol made a fine ascent that, while not ideal, was a bold adventure that bodes well for his tenure as a wall sufferer. Few of our ascents are ever ideal. None of these pins are going into virgin cracks. They all go into what are already pin scars. It's great to keep the scars as small as possible, but we're not talking retrobolting here.
Congrats again to Ricardo on a bold and excellent ascent. It's unfortunate that aid climbing often damages the rock. Perhaps those sections of rock would not have been possible to originally climb without nailing. Perhaps someday we'll have new gear that would have made it possible to climb those routes clean from the beginning without any damage. The same could be said for life on earth. Someday we might have renewable energy and smokeless cars and furnaces. Should we have waited? Maybe. Is that reality, no.
Good job bro! I've have met Ricardol on a climb and found that he was totally cool and we worked together so both our parties could enjoy the popular route without interferring with each other. I doubt he's guilty of any sin of booty hogging. Rather it sounds like he went beyond the call of duty.
Peace
karl
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iamthewallress
Nov 6, 2003, 10:51 PM
Post #89 of 94
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Registered: Jan 2, 2003
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In reply to: In all my years I have never heard anybody say that a bolt ruins the rock. Bolts may ruin the climbing, the experience, the sense of adventure, and the character of the route. But they don't harm the rock.
Right....The bolt and the bolt hole become part of the rock just as nature intended it. The line of lichen death under the rusting bolt is also just as nature intended it. :roll:
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heath
Nov 6, 2003, 11:19 PM
Post #90 of 94
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Registered: Sep 27, 2003
Posts: 16
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In reply to: 1. The principal of the thing. Using a piton is still working with what the rock gives you rather than bolting it into submission. 2. Pin placements turn into clean placements over time. Every route on El Cap would be a giant bolt ladder if mandatory piton placements were bolted.
I assume that you're replying to my question. Which is, "why used fixed pitons over fixed bolts". I was specifically referring to fixed gear and not piton placements, mandatory or otherwise, that are intended to be cleaned. I still don't clearly understand the rationale of using a fixed piton over a bolt, other than the general impression that I get from aid climbers that "bolts are bad" and "pitons are ok". Also, I believe the word that you were looking for is, "principle".
In reply to: 3. Bolts take away the danger, commitment, and fun of aid climbing.
I'd contend that using fixed pitons does the same, but I'm not arguing from a position of experience, which is why I'm asking these questions.
In reply to: 4. Are you an aid climber who is ever going to climb El Cap? If not, why the hell do you care? Free climbers complaining about this is as uninformed and futile as someone like me complaining about the tons of rock people are crowbarring off sport crags to make them safe. Why is a piton placement worse than crowbarring off a 150 pound sortof loose block to create a bolted sport climb? Because El Cap is pretty and the sportos are wreaking havoc on choss?
This question is asinine and inflammatory. You're assuming that I have a particular opinion on the topic that is being discussed, which I don't. Note that this thread was split, and the topic at hand is the ethics of aid climbing. If you are upset that it's being discussed at all, you may decline to participate. I specifically refrained from offering criticism of anybody's actions.
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ep
Nov 6, 2003, 11:40 PM
Post #91 of 94
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Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 88
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I think that wigglestick meant that bolts affect the climbing a lot more than they do the rock itself.
There are at least three different things we're talking about here. Style, environmental ethics, and climbing ethics. Consider Ricardo's ascent. He spent a week on Zodiac, nailed a dozen times, and cheat sticked past the crux. He lost a few style points there, but more than made up for them because it was his first wall ever and he did it solo. In any case, taking issue with Ricardo's style is absurd since it only affects him.
Environmentally, bolts and pitons are not much of an issue. The rock itself feels no pain. And on a cliff like El Cap, the visual degradation caused by bolts or pin scars is nearly zero. Climbers cause much greater visual and true environmental damage through other means, as has been pointed out already. And taken as a whole, climbing is a tiny blip in the collection of environmental problems we face.
The real issue here is climbing ethics. As most people realize, bolting changes a route irrevocably. Sure, a bomber A1 pin is only different from a bolt in that you have to hammer instead of just clip, but many pins are not so easily placed nor so secure. Even fixed gear isn't necessarily that safe. Anyone who has clipped the rotting cord on an old RURP knows this. And for those A1 fixed pins, why bother with a bolt?
You could take the stance that routes that require pins should not even be climbed (or climbed only if one can boldly do so without them). This would make a huge number of aid climbs virtually impossible, which would be a shame. And it would be akin to saying that sport routes should be made off limits unless you had the skill and nerve to climb them without bolts. An interesting philosophical position, but one that hardly anyone would buy into. You'd have to give up way too much to really be so pure.
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atg200
Nov 7, 2003, 6:22 AM
Post #92 of 94
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ok heath, nice job correcting what was probably the only word in a long post i misspelled. feel good about yourself?
you don't see too many fixed pins on aid lines. most of the fixed pins you see have been welded in, and whoever left them either couldn't remove them or decided that it would cause more damage to remove them than to leave them. the other you see are often on pendulum points or other places where removing the fixed gear is very hard. fixed heads are common, but if you want to suggest replacing heads with bolts i urge you to head on over to the sport climbing forum. i have never once left a fixed pin - at $8-15 a pop that would hurt. this is a non-issue, and you'll see more fixed pins at ethically pure free climbing areas like eldo or the gunks than on el cap.
photon - i was playing devils advocate. i used to climb hard overhanging limestone sport routes back in the day, so i am well aware that toproping is impractical on those sorts of routes. moreover i am also aware that the upper rock at many sport routes is absolute choss that no one in their right might would want to climb through. the point was to contrast the absurdity of claiming that all bolts and chalk are evil with all nailing being evil.
climb_plastic - you are talking out of your ass. lets hear some names of these visionary aid climbers who won't pound a pin. it doesn't count if they are folks who never venture off of C1-C2 trade routes - that is along the lines of an ethically pure sport climb who won't use chalk and lowers after every hang, but climbs no harder than 5.9
will everyone being critical of nailing please post their wall resume, as well as the hardest individual aid pitch they have ever lead? that should give us some perspective.
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squish
Nov 7, 2003, 8:37 AM
Post #93 of 94
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In reply to: There's no escaping the fact that climbing in all forms is a completely contrived game. We could take a helicopter ride to the top of ElCap and avoid impacting the face entirely. At what point do you decide that changing the game in the name of conservation makes the game pointless? For most climbers that point would include simply bolting all routes that currently require pitons. Is that really difficult to understand? You may ask...well, who gets to decide what degree of impact is accetable? Here's a novel idea...let's leave it up to the people who actually climb ElCap. Have a little faith that these climbers are probably more interested in preserving ElCap than any human being alive.
You hit it right on, wise one. That's what it's all about.
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sixter
Nov 7, 2003, 8:51 AM
Post #94 of 94
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Registered: May 25, 2003
Posts: 262
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First off, I don't do aid, heck, I don't do sport or lead trad either. That doesn't mean I am not interested in those aspects of climbing. I would love to learn aid and trad. Most of my current outside climbing experience is on boulders. This probably makes you wonder why the heck I am posting to this thread (makes me wonder too). Before I rant, let me get this out of the way. I think Ricardo did a great job to SOLO his first big wall.
Now, this talk of pitons, bolts, chalk, "save the rock" really made me ill. I guess I am an odd sort of person. When I get interested in something I read whatever information I can get my hands on about it. I like to learn the ethics, the history, and get familiar with the different aspects of the subject. I understood the reasons for using pitons before reading a single word on this thread. I understood the reason for using bolts before reading anything on this site. I also understand climbing in itself changes the face of a rock. If you free climb long enough you are going to break a hold of sometime. Sometimes it is a huge freaking flake! Are you going to quit climbing because of that? I know I won't. I do know I try to climb in a manner that reduces the chances of that happening. Don't you wish all people would get familiar with both sides of an issue before they debate and make themselves look like they have their head up their backside?
It is not true that big wall free routes on El Cap would have never gone if there wasn't pin scars. How many expanding flakes are there on El Cap that some day may exfoliate? Is that not Nature changing the rock forever? Isn't one reason fixed pins are still considered adventurous is that you still need to check them to make sure they are good? Don't some pins look good on the outside of the crack, then turn out to be pure mank on the inside of the crack. Kind of like the bolts in Thailand that pop with bodyweight. Am I wrong?
This argument in this thread is kind of like the people that protest managed logging because they don't take the time to learn about the process, then they go home and live in their wood house, sit on their wood chairs, and use electricity from coal burning power plants (don't tell me that you get your electricity exclusively from renewable resources such as wind and solar, because there is no guarantee. I don't believe hydro electricity is good for the environment, can you say Hoover Dam?). They complain about polluting SUVs and trucks, but don't seem to care that the organic cotton for their t-shirts and shorts were harvested by diesel tractors, taken to the processing plant by diesel trucks, and probably there were some underpaid illegal immigrants in the mix to boot.
All humans can do at this moment is manage the impact we personally have on the environment. We can't turn back the clock. Heck people even say cows belching methane is ruining the environment. The society we live in is causing so much damage that we don't know about, that the use of a few pins to get up El Cap pales in comparison. Is pounding a pin going to make some animal extinct? Is it going to cause pollution? Is the planet going to burn out and become wasteland?
Why do I bother to get worked up, somebody is probably just going to say I am blowing smoke out of my a$$ anyhow. Probably as good a time as any for me to learn how to use the killfile... :roll:
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