|
jipstyle
Nov 6, 2003, 7:39 PM
Post #76 of 88
(10281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 482
|
In reply to: Joshy, unless you always clip below your waist, you toprope every climb you do too.
So ... when I'm 15ft. above my last piece of pro, and clipping my next draw over my head, I'm actually toproping the route?
Wow. All these years, I've been taking whippers on TR. Who knew.
|
|
|
|
|
jipstyle
Nov 6, 2003, 7:51 PM
Post #77 of 88
(10281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 482
|
In reply to: more rocks, but not of the nice, flat, caring for your pretty face type. It's more or less a jagged talus.
In reply to: The move is very hard to control. This is where most attempts fail. A fall from this move sends you way back, tumbling and twirling. (you at least twist an ankle IMHO).
It's called a 'barndoor' ... it happens a lot. There is a video posted earlier in the thread of (I think) Lamiche working the route. He falls off that move at least a dozen times in the video ... hits the ground every time ... and doesn't ever hurt himself. No twisted ankle.
In reply to: Not caring is the deal here, because, while on his flash attempt, having done the 3 first moves, he was searching for the right foot beta, he simply decided to let go after a while. I highly doubt that making history was part of his thoughts.
That doesn't sound like Sharma at all. His interviews make him seem very laid back and relaxed ... and he is ... but that man does NOT just 'let go' ... certainly not on a flash attempt. Not on an aesthetic problem.
Were you there? I doubt it. I've seen him climb ... he would NOT just 'jump off' because he couldn't find the foot beta.
In reply to: Anyone with the slightest selfish thoughts about being the greatest climber ever would have tried anything to finish such a flash attempt.
Stop spraying. Sharma would have tried anything to finish such a flash attempt ... and that has nothing to do with 'selfish thoughts' ... he loves to climb and has motivations other than pride. Has it occured to you that he climbs at his level, and doesn't just 'give up' .. because he loves it?
In reply to: So, if someone like Kehl, who is perhaps the only guy with strong enough fingers and big enough balls to try it solo, says he'd rather not, you should believe him more than pictures, videos, and every little opinion on the internet.
Now that is actually a valid point.
In reply to: And if people like Sharma and Lamiche don't care about one or two bolts clipped, and you know for a fact that they do not care about their image either, maybe you should revise your definition of ethics.
Anyone who 'revises' (I would say rejects) their ethics because of what someone else ... regardless of their fame or strength ... is an insecure child. Ethics are meant to sustain us .. they are not meant to blow in the hot-air of the spraying media and its followers.
I have a quick question: who has said that Sharma's ascent is NOT impressive? Has anyone said that in this thread? Not that I recall. That is not the issue ... 8a.nu's labelling of the ascent is the issue.
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhunger
Nov 7, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #78 of 88
(10281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 44
|
Every little opinion heh...
First, do not try to evaluate what type a person is from interview when you haven't met him, or have met him briefly and spent like hours dreaming and wondering about his perosnnality. "I read his interviews and I don't think he would let go". How ridiculous is that. What a valid point.
Was I there? No.
However, 2 of my good friends were, filmed his send, and were shouting beta during his flash attempt. I think they reported it to me correctly.
Those are, however, details.
As for the bad landing, yes, Toni lands correctly, but the rope prevents him from tumbling badly. It seems dangerous when you try it (hence my opinion, and that most everyone who tried it), but it ends up it ain't that bad.
I will have to retract my "only valid point", cause Kehl just stopped using a rope on it and will send very soon (if not today). He is, however, using a different sequence on the last moves (not going towards the sloper like Toni) to stay on moves where he can control the fall.
Finally, "revising your ethics", not exactly.
The point was more towards seeing through the ethical background of the accomplishment.
There is a problem with definitions and ethics when people do not report clearly what happened.
Saying you redpointed a route versus saying you did it with 5 (out of 6) first bolts pre-clipped (to report the same deed) is different and misleading.
What you should revise is your way of evalutating the value of an accomplishment through ethics.
In this case, no one was hiding anything, trying to pass as better in ethics as they were, and these people (Sharma, Lamiche, Kehl, etc) never do, cause they don't give a shit. They just do whatever and that's it, and people shall report it how they want, you still should avoid pinning bad behavior or naysaying on the people who acheive that stuff.
The 8a.nu headline was: Sharma almost flashes The Fly.
Yeh, its blurry, but if you had seen that shit, you would be saying that as well, and probably be very excited about it.
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhunger
Nov 7, 2003, 7:49 PM
Post #79 of 88
(10281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 44
|
I just re-read your post.
I wasn't implying you have to be selfish to hang on, simply that if a thought about "making history" would have crept in your mind, you would be more inclined to hang on. It was a bad way of adding to the fact that this climb was probably not as meaningful to him as it may be to the "whole wide climbing world".
My ethics are what they are, but at their base is simply reporting what I did as it is, exagerating the fact that I was a pussy if I was one, and laughing about it.
As long as people are honest about what they did, there is no need to debate ethics about past accomplishments (that do not have bad consequences such as scarring the rock, etc). They are what they are.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 7, 2003, 8:08 PM
Post #80 of 88
(10281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: Well, he certainly couldn't have almost flashed it on his third, or fourth, or seventieth try, could he? ;)
You know what I mean right? On his first try he came close to getting it. It wasn't like he was flailing away.
In reply to: He fell on the last move and the next time he got there he pulled it. So it was close.
In reply to: Question I have is: are they still calling it a 5.14d if it's top roped or free solo'd or is the rating of the climb lower when you don't have to lead it? ie. rate it 5.14d as a lead exactly the way Dave Graham did it but only 5.14c TR or solo.
A climb is rated according to its difficulty, regardless of whether you lead it or TR it. This isn't going to change anytime soon. It will, however, continue to be the subject of controversy and long flame wars. Rather than repeat them here, just do a quick search. The 'is tr'ing as hard as leading' subject comes up at least monthly on rc.com. ;)
Yeah I get that. I'm just thinking that even though it's the same route it's a different climb the way Sharma did it and the way Graham did it and they really do have different difficulties.
My thought is that I get the feeling the 8a.nu article was misinterpreted because people are reading too much into it.
|
|
|
|
|
climbingjunky
Nov 7, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #81 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 407
|
This overanalysis is giving me a headache. :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
superlob
Nov 8, 2003, 12:04 AM
Post #82 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 30
|
This thred is such a hoot... LOL I am enjoying the read :lol:
Great job Sharma keep up the strong climbing and giving us all something we can look up to. If just one of us could share a day climbing/spotting you on some routes we would learn a great deal about this sport.
|
|
|
|
|
jipstyle
Nov 9, 2003, 8:24 PM
Post #83 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 482
|
In reply to: First, do not try to evaluate what type a person is from interview when you haven't met him, or have met him briefly and spent like hours dreaming and wondering about his perosnnality. "I read his interviews and I don't think he would let go". How ridiculous is that. What a valid point.
Interesting that you assume I only know Sharma through interviews.
In reply to: Was I there? No. However, 2 of my good friends were, filmed his send, and were shouting beta during his flash attempt. I think they reported it to me correctly.
They filmed it? Oh good. Then you have proof! Feel free to provide it anytime .. because what you say you're friends have told you (a textbook definition of hearsay, ironically, given your first paragraph) does not sound like Sharma at all.
In reply to: I will have to retract my "only valid point", cause Kehl just stopped using a rope on it and will send very soon (if not today). He is, however, using a different sequence on the last moves (not going towards the sloper like Toni) to stay on moves where he can control the fall.
8a.nu, my favourite spray site (italics used to indicate sarcasm) reports that Kehl bouldered the problem. Wow. :)
In reply to: Finally, "revising your ethics", not exactly. The point was more towards seeing through the ethical background of the accomplishment. There is a problem with definitions and ethics when people do not report clearly what happened. Saying you redpointed a route versus saying you did it with 5 (out of 6) first bolts pre-clipped (to report the same deed) is different and misleading. What you should revise is your way of evalutating the value of an accomplishment through ethics.
I should? Oh thank you, wise one. While we are passing out ridiculous advice, I suggest you learn how to read.
I have not passed judgement on Chris' achievement ... I have criticised the REPORT of his achievement by the site that sprays more than a dozen gym rats in front of the new girl in the gym.
In reply to: In this case, no one was hiding anything, trying to pass as better in ethics as they were, and these people (Sharma, Lamiche, Kehl, etc) never do, cause they don't give a s---. They just do whatever and that's it, and people shall report it how they want, you still should avoid pinning bad behavior or naysaying on the people who acheive that stuff.
I didn't.
In reply to: The 8a.nu headline was: Sharma almost flashes The Fly. Yeh, its blurry, but if you had seen that s---, you would be saying that as well, and probably be very excited about it.
I was very excited about it. I was very disappointed by the headline. I am so very sorry that you disagree with my desire for the media to be truthful.
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhunger
Nov 9, 2003, 8:30 PM
Post #84 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 44
|
Lets take this to PMs.
Look, I'm not gonna argue over the place about what I saw or heard.
Please check the date on my post before you think I scavenge my info from 8a.nu.
|
|
|
|
|
jipstyle
Nov 9, 2003, 8:31 PM
Post #85 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 482
|
In reply to: I just re-read your post. I wasn't implying you have to be selfish to hang on, simply that if a thought about "making history" would have crept in your mind, you would be more inclined to hang on. It was a bad way of adding to the fact that this climb was probably not as meaningful to him as it may be to the "whole wide climbing world".
Ok, I understand what you're getting at ... my point was that, for Chris, the thought of 'making history' would not provide extra incentive. I've never met anyone who sprays LESS than he does. The thought of flashing that problem, though ... THAT would inspire him plenty. :)
In reply to: As long as people are honest about what they did, there is no need to debate ethics about past accomplishments (that do not have bad consequences such as scarring the rock, etc). They are what they are.
I don't think there is any need to debate ethics in climbing at all [1]. For instance, there is no way in HELL I would try to solo the Fly. Well, maybe I would ... I'm quite sure I couldn't get far enough off the ground to hurt myself. I DO think that there is a constant and necessary need to debate the ethics of the media, however. If I've come on strong in this thread, it is because 8a.nu represents the disease of self-serving self-aggrandising spray, and is symptomatic of a path down which our sport is racing headlong at dangerous speed.
Sharma sending The Fly in 4 tries ... WOW! Show me the footage!
Sharma 'almost flashing the Fly' ... then reading that he didn't ... a letdown.
[1]: I am talking strictly about the ethics of 'achievement'. As you correctly pointed out, the ethics of conservation, care of the rock, etc. etc. is very important and must always remain foremost in our minds and discussions.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 9, 2003, 10:22 PM
Post #86 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: Sharma sending The Fly in 4 tries ... WOW! Show me the footage! Sharma 'almost flashing the Fly' ... then reading that he didn't ... a letdown.
I read the article. I don't know where the letdown is. It says "almost flashes." Almost means he didn't do it but came close. I still don't know what the big deal is about the wording. You're looking too much at his 4 tries but all that matters is what he did on the first attempt which was "almost flashed" it. It would have been a letdown if on his first attempt he fell on a false start or even somewhere in the middle of the route.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
Nov 10, 2003, 2:11 PM
Post #87 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
So noone is impressed whith Sharmas style of climbing the route, huh? What about Kehls solo of the route on the 7th?
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 10, 2003, 7:54 PM
Post #88 of 88
(10279 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: So noone is impressed whith Sharmas style of climbing the route, huh? What about Kehls solo of the route on the 7th?
I'm impressed with both. I'm impressed with how fast Sharma climbed it and how close he came to flashing it and I'm impressed with the risk Kehl took to do it without a rope.
|
|
|
|
|
|
