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ryanhos
Nov 24, 2003, 8:59 AM
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Ya know, I originally thought "Yeah! Somebody finally had the balls to say it! Go tenn_dawg!" Boreal, 5.10, Fusion3, C4, canvas, leather, who the frig cares?
Then i got to thinking: I'm probably going to resole my Boreal Aces when the sole finally gives up sometime next season. Why? Because the toes are pointy. I can't find any other shoes with toes as pointy as the aces. They look like elf shoes. I've come to love them. I've been able to stick my toes places others can only dream of because of my pointy toed shoes. And the stiff, board-lasted sole helps me stand on that small stuff, even if I can't feel it. :) My edging capabilities far exceed my climbing abilities. If I had some blunt toed shoe (a-la the Mythos and Spire) I'd probably have a hard time sending some of my favorite climbs because I'd be trying to shove my toes into places that they couldn't go. The pointy toes have become part of my climbing style. So I suppose your advice of "buy any on-sale, well-fitting shoe" doesn't really sit well with me.
The shoes don't make the man
Nor do they improve the man
But they do become a part of him
And if I'm going to have to meld with some rubber and leather, I'm sure going to take my time and find a design that suits me and my climbing style.
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sok_the_rok
Nov 24, 2003, 9:16 AM
Post #27 of 85
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Dunno about you guys, but i sure know one thing that being from the third world, climbing shoe options are not for me... i'm an outdoor adventure enthusiast and have a really old shoe (designed as a rock shoe but no sticky rubber) i think a rockshoe makes a difference... the only thing is if you've the time and MONEY to try out different designes... for me its a leisure and expensive, and i cannot afford it, sometimes if my old shoe don't help then i climb barefoot and it helps, however i do think it makes a difference coz i once tried a "REAL ROCKSHOE" and i think it really gives you the edge and leverage. DUNNO :?:
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sok_the_rok
Nov 24, 2003, 9:17 AM
Post #28 of 85
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Dunno about you guys, but i sure know one thing that being from the third world, climbing shoe options are not for me... i'm an outdoor adventure enthusiast and have a really old shoe (designed as a rock shoe but no sticky rubber) i think a rockshoe makes a difference... the only thing is if you've the time and MONEY to try out different designes... for me its a leisure and expensive, and i cannot afford it, sometimes if my old shoe don't help then i climb barefoot and it helps, however i do think it makes a difference coz i once tried a "REAL ROCKSHOE" and i think it really gives you the edge and leverage. DUNNO :?:
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jagungal
Nov 24, 2003, 9:58 AM
Post #29 of 85
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A call of BS on how important the rubber is. Dammit, I can't remember where I read it, but some mag got a bunch of 'name' shoes and whacked a whole lot of different kinds of them fancy rubbers on them. Then they gave them to folks to see how well they climbed. The news: there was no difference! Well that's not true...apparently the purple shoes climbed the hardest :shock: :lol:
Anyway, no shoe is going to make me climb well...
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roughster
Nov 24, 2003, 11:48 AM
Post #30 of 85
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Have to agree, T1 and thats being generous.
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dobbsboy
Nov 24, 2003, 12:27 PM
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on slick, technical slabs they matter. For most peoples projects, which are usually overhung they probably don't matter as much.
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roughster
Nov 24, 2003, 12:39 PM
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They matter much for more than just slabs. For example in very pocketed rock, you wouldn't want something with an excessively round toe box. You would go for more of a chisel toe.
For routes with smears (whether they are on slabs or overhangs) you want something with a slightly more flexible midsole.
Routes with lots of edges, you want something with built in support under the big toe.
Thin cracks accept slimmer profile shoes much more readily than shoes with "boxy" toeboxes. Also, some should have little to no rubber on the top portion of the shoes. This also can make a difference when you need contact on both sides of the crack if possible.
I would assume it is lack of being able to climb hard enough to notice the difference more than malicious trolling that the author is guilty of :lol:
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yomomma
Nov 24, 2003, 1:43 PM
Post #33 of 85
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Yeah, right. Try climbing something in a pair of Spires, then try it in a pair of Anasazis. Shoes don't matter? That's a load of crap.
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daryl314
Nov 24, 2003, 1:58 PM
Post #34 of 85
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um, i'd say they do matter. there are subtle differences between shoes that will affect your climbing. for instance, there is a climb at rumney (lonesome dove) that involves a lot of very delicate edging. no problem at all with a pair of anasazi velcros. tossed on a pair of mad rock hookers and the soft rubber of their dual layer sole rolled off the edges making the climb flat out scary for me. went from boreal aces to anasazi velcros and my climbing ability immediately shot up 2 letter grades, probably because of the cambered nature of the shoe. tried crack jamming with the anasazis and it hurt so much that i'll probably never try it again. aces are definitely better for that.
maybe there isn't much of a difference between different shoes that are the same style (ie cambered shoes vs an all-day shoe), but i think the type of shoe you are wearing can make a huge difference.
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jpearl
Nov 24, 2003, 7:21 PM
Post #35 of 85
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Wow, I thought my "loose chalk vs. chalk balls" was controversial, this topic is an all-out war!
But seriously, shoes do and don't make a difference.
I've seen many of the top climbers in my gym throw on a pair of beater gym shoes (Bufos) and send some of the most technical routes, then come down and do all sorts of traverse problems.
I myself climbed outdoors in beat up ol' skool 5.10 Mohaves with the rands pulling off and also in a pair of shiny new Mad Rock Hookers. The difference: who knows, who cares! The 5.10s sent an actual 5.10. and the Mad Rocks had a good ol' time playing on a 5.7 crack.
In general, I know what I do and don't want in a shoe, it's all personal preference on size and features based on real climbing experience. But I also know what I do and don't want on my feet on a technical boulder problem, an slabby overhang, or a gym wall. My feet in a large, worn pair of Spires are more likely to slip off a foot chip or dime-thin ledge than a tight edgy pair of Mad Rocks or Cobras.
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tenn_dawg
Nov 24, 2003, 8:08 PM
Post #36 of 85
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All you people who are just positive that they make a huge difference are kidding yourselves.
Go back to that climb that the $180 shoes "made possible" and send it in your beaters. Jesus, after I learned the moves, I could redpoint and boulder at my limit in a pair of street sized mythos with the toes blown out.
I will stand here and say to all of you...different shoes won't make it possible for you to climb even one letter grade harder. Experiment a little , and you will see. It's in your head. The beta might be a little different, but your maximum difficulty will not increase or decrease just because of the kind of shoes you've got on.
Trust me here, or try it for yourself, then tell me I'm full of sh*t.
Hahahahaha
Travis
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tonyeatworld
Nov 24, 2003, 8:26 PM
Post #37 of 85
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I am going to have to agree with TennDawg on this one, cause to be honest I can Prodeal shoes and that has made me realize how much the company's mark stuff up. That's just the way retail works. But at wholesale prices you pay pretty much the same for a pair of LaSportiva's as you do for a pair of Madrocks. So umm.... sorry to have blown the cover for the shoe companys, but thats just how retail works. Come on you think that shirt you bought for forty bucks cost that much to make?
For those of you who missed the point of TennDawgs statement, I will say that having a well fitting pair of shoes is very important, but that wasn't really the point he was trying to make.
Also I think we should call for a boycot of the T-system until some quality trolls can be posted as opposed to the usual crap polluting the airwaves
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mowz
Nov 24, 2003, 8:32 PM
Post #38 of 85
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Holy crap.
I'm tentative to go out on a limb but I agree with the author. I have only gone through one pair of shoes but the only reason why I replaced my shoes was because I stretched them out and they no longer fit. I got a new pair and they fit like a glove but that didn't make me climb better. As for the type-of-shoe-fits-type-of-climb argument, sure, the shoes might help; but looking for better foot placement, sucking up the pain, trusting your feet, not worrying about your foot falling off the dime, etc., etc. also helps.
I'd compare it to purchasing a pair of running shoes. Shoes that are more comfortable based on your foot type and striking position are better and will make you a better runner because it will take your mind off your feet and help you concentrate. If you go out and buy a shoe that conserves energy and returns it back to your stride but doesn't fit well or causes you to have blisters, then you can just give me the $98 and save your time.
I'd also compare it to buying a manual potato masher. The more comfortable the masher feels, the more you are going to mash. That doesn't improve your mashing abilities. If you sucked at first, then your potatoes will still be 70% chunks. If I were a great masher, then I would still be a great masher, whether I mashed with an instrument that hurt my palms or one that felt like holding onto a bar of gold, a comfortable bar of gold.
Enuf said.
Laters.
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rvega
Nov 24, 2003, 8:44 PM
Post #39 of 85
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I use to think it never matter either but then I forgot my shoes at the gym once and had to use some Equinox's. I couldn't edge or smear on anything. And it wasn't a matter of fitting they just didn't perform as well in comparison to any of my other three sets of shoes. :cry:
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capn_morgan
Nov 24, 2003, 9:03 PM
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so its not odd that i can boulder just as hard in mtneering boots as in climbing shoes? it just takes me a while to work out the sequence as its a little different when wearing a pair of boots with steel shanks. :P I can edge like a madman in my boots..just cant smear at all... and my feet feel like they have cinder block stied to them 8)
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cracklover
Nov 24, 2003, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: Trust me here, or try it for yourself, then tell me I'm full of sh*t.
Okay, sorry, but if you insist... Mr. Dawg, you are full of sh*t.
I used to not believe there was a difference either, but I'll tell you a little story. Was climbing pretty well, even felt like I was starting to break through a difficulty level at which I'd been stuck for a year or so. Bought a new pair of more *high end* shoes. Whatever. Continued to make good progress. Really good progress, actually. One day I couldn't get up a route to save my life, and was so pissed. This was the second week in a row I couldn't get up this route. The kicker was that I'd done it before!
But now I've tried all my tricks, and for some reason, nothing is *quite* working. Then I remembered - I sent my new shoes back because they had delaminated, and was climbing in my old shoes. Well wouldn't you know it, when I got my new shoes back, I was able to do the route again. It wasn't the only route either.
I didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe I'd gotten better. But the difference in my redpoint level was mostly due to my new shoes.
I won't say what kind of shoes the two pairs were, that's not the point (and I don't want anyone to mistake my post for one badmouthing a particular brand of shoe). The rubber may have been the difference, or it may have simply been the tighter fit in the new shoes.
GO
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climbercaret
Nov 24, 2003, 9:06 PM
Post #42 of 85
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In my honest opinion they do , It makes such a difference that I have several pairs depending on the type of climbing that I'm attempting.
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tenn_dawg
Nov 24, 2003, 9:21 PM
Post #43 of 85
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In reply to: In my honest opinion they do , It makes such a difference that I have several pairs depending on the type of climbing that I'm attempting.
That's great! We need more people like you to stimulate the economy! Way to take one for the greater good brah!
The money multiplier is powerful! Yeah Capatolism!!
Ha
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tenn_dawg
Nov 24, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #44 of 85
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In reply to: In reply to: Trust me here, or try it for yourself, then tell me I'm full of sh*t. Okay, sorry, but if you insist... Mr. Dawg, you are full of sh*t.
You know you're right, hang on a minute, I gotta go drop ass like Hiroshima...
*long, long pause...toilet flushes*
Ahhh, okay, that's better, now, what were you saying?
In reply to: I used to not believe there was a difference either, but I'll tell you a little story. Was climbing pretty well, even felt like I was starting to break through a difficulty level at which I'd been stuck for a year or so. Bought a new pair of more *high end* shoes. Whatever. Continued to make good progress. Really good progress, actually. One day I couldn't get up a route to save my life, and was so pissed. This was the second week in a row I couldn't get up this route. The kicker was that I'd done it before!
Heh, that happens to me all the time. In fact I think it happens to everyone, bad days on the rock, poor mojo, high humidity, too much to drink the night before, girlfriend left you and took your dog... Lots of things can cause a bad day.
In reply to: But now I've tried all my tricks, and for some reason, nothing is *quite* working. Then I remembered - I sent my new shoes back because they had delaminated, and was climbing in my old shoes. Well wouldn't you know it, when I got my new shoes back, I was able to do the route again. It wasn't the only route either.
Well okay, lets work with this here. Was this just one climbing day, when there were multiple climbs you couldn't get up? When did you make the realization that you didn't have your special shoes that allowed you to start making "really good progress"? As much as I hate to say it, climbing is such a mental game, that looking down and not seeing your shiny new shoes (the ones that had allowed you to progress) could stifle you enough that you psych yourself out of climbing the route.
It happens to everyone, the key is to take it as a challenge, and relearn the route if you have too. But it WILL go with crummy shoes. You've just got to try like tomorow the miners are coming in and blasting your crag away forever.
There is not a doubt in my mind that you could climb that route in crummy shoes, I KNOW you can. And if you don't think you can, you are selling yourself short. Dont give the praise of your increased climbing difficulty to your fu*king SHOES! Take it yourself!! YOU, learned that climb, YOU put in the time, and YOU sent it. And you'll be able to do it, regardless of wether or not you've booted up in some rediculously overpriced, overhyped, celebrity shoes.
In reply to: I didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe I'd gotten better. But the difference in my redpoint level was mostly due to my new shoes.
Don't sell yourself short dude. Trust yourself, and take pride in your accomplishments, don't shrug it off to high dollar shoes. Be PROUD!
Travis
(currently entertaining thoughts of being a motivational speaker)
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styndall
Nov 24, 2003, 9:43 PM
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In reply to: And you'll be able to do it, regardless of wether or not you've booted up in some rediculously overpriced, overhyped, celebrity shoes.
The example I gave above, where I floundered on hard mantle on a ridiculous smear, then sent in another pair of shoes was not me trading from my standard to shoe to some rocketassmaster3000(tm). I went from a high-end bouldering shoe with crappy rubber, which made my feet hurt and didn't stick very well to a n00b-style 5.10 shoe that was hella more comfortable and had the sticky rubber. It's pretty simple - when my foot sticks to the wall, I can stick the move; when it doesn't, I can't. Maybe later, when I've got hella more hand strength, I'll be able to pull the move with wax paper wrapped around my feet, but for now, the sticky rubber makes the difference.
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cracklover
Nov 24, 2003, 10:59 PM
Post #46 of 85
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Hey Dawg, I don't suppose your real name is Mr Luigi Vercotti, is it? ;)
http://www.saifai.co.uk/pse10.shtml#6
My first six months of climbing I used my bike shoes. Made a lot of progress in those six months. There were two climbs that were just a little too hard for me when I bought my first pair of real rock climbing shoes. You know how it is - you know all the moves but can't *quite* stick them all in sequence. Put on my new shoes, and flew up both climbs. Made a difference, no question.
Here's the thing - I could climb harder *now* in my old bike shoes than I could *then* in those new climbing shoes. Should I take that to mean that the shoes don't make a difference? Absurd! Shoes, technique, strength, willpower. All of these make a difference. Perhaps shoes the least - I won't argue that point. But a real, noticable, gradable difference? Emphatically, yes.
In reply to: And you'll be able to do it, regardless of wether or not you've booted up in some rediculously overpriced, overhyped, celebrity shoes.
Two thoughts: First... I won't claim that shoes do make a difference for you, but neither should you say that they don't for me. Could I have gotten up that climb with my old shoes? Almost certainly. But it would have taken a lot longer, and taken more effort. And second... Hype? Celebrity? I don't read the rags man, I just climb.
GO
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jpearl
Nov 24, 2003, 11:11 PM
Post #47 of 85
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Are you children still at your little shoe war?
O.K., let's get to the sole (pun intended) of the issue:
No, shoes will not make you a better climber if you assume becoming better means that a particular shoe will be the sole (no pun intended) factor in allowing you to graduate from, say, a 5.5 to a 5.12.
However, some shoes will allow your feet to at least go places other shoes can't. Any of my current two pairs of shoes (Hookers and Cobras) can creep into nooks and crannies that my big 'ol Nike hiking boots can't. And my super tight Hookers and Cobras can find their way onto super-thin ledges and micro-thin cracks that my old big and round Spires couldn't.
Being a better climber in some instances is not about numbers and letters. Sometimes it is simply about being able to stay on the rock vs. not being able to stay on the rock. And if my Cobras or Hookers do a better job of keeping me on the rock than my Nikes or Spires, then so be it.
As for improving to higher grades in climbing, I'll leave that to my training, passion, and dedication to the peaceful sport of rock climbing.
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1269topper
Nov 24, 2003, 11:18 PM
Post #48 of 85
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Yes somebody thinks like me ( I am referring to the first post)
Shoes don't matter its the feet in them that do!!
If your ever at seneca look at some of the bad ass routes put up and the date. Most are before sticky rubber and if your privy to old photos they usually have socks on too :shock:
I feel that really shoes don't even enter the picture until your at your limit, and then it usually in your head.
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mreardon
Nov 24, 2003, 11:52 PM
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In reply to: Jesus, after I learned the moves, I could redpoint and boulder at my limit in a pair of street sized mythos with the toes blown out.
Maybe you need to push yourself to higher limits. If not a troll (how brilliant if it is though!), then yes, for 90% of the climbers out there, shoes need to be comfortable first, then sticky/edgy rubber second. But loose slippers ain't gonna get me up some of the dime edges I've been standing on lately, and those stiff edging shoes ain't gonna' get me up those smears. However, there are boulder problems, trad runs, and sport routes still waiting for repeats 15+ years later, so it ain't necessarily the shoes....
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freudian
Nov 25, 2003, 12:17 AM
Post #50 of 85
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Shoes do make a difference. Some shoes aren't made for smearing like the Boreal Stingers, some are, like the FiveTEN Moccasyms.
If your shoes have holes in the toes, it's going to be pretty difficult to send.
Those are my points, now flame me.
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