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petsfed
Jan 13, 2004, 5:03 PM
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Depends on the size of the water tank and (as always) the size of the pipe, but you don't see more than about 30 pounds of water per minute coming from your faucet. but lets do some quick calculations shall we? We'll say that the tank is open to air entirely so suction is not a problem (otherwise you need a pump to move the water, especially with the size of the hole we'll be using). Lets further say that the size of our pipe is an inch and a half in diameter but also collapsable so air resistance is a non-issue when the water is descending (also makes it easier to retrieve). That means that it will take 7.8 seconds for the water to go from the tank to the user. So ignoring friction, when the water hits the user, it will be going at about 250 feet per second. By comparison, average highway speed is about 50 feet per second. Doing some further calculations, we find that the downward force coming out of the nozzle at the other end is in excess of 10000 lbs of force (or about 5500 psi flux through the nozzle), unless my 4 years of physics study are horribly off. Some ways to get around this: use a pump so that the amount of water in the tube is controlled very precisely, taper the tube so less water exits at the end (although this will increase the water pressure, not unlike putting your thumb over end of your garden hose), have smaller water tanks at regular intervals up the rock so that no hoses need to be lowered.
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wlderdude
Jan 16, 2004, 1:25 AM
Post #27 of 49
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Calculate the pressure of the water head.
Rho g h, right?
Density of the water, force of gravity and height of the water colum all multiplied together.
You get about 3000 kpa or 433 psi!
Try holding that in a flexible tube! Sounds heavy and expensive, but possible.
I wouldn't put anything past the National Parks Service. They are not the National Wilderness Protection Agency, but are in the business of making recrational parks.
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b_fost
Jan 16, 2004, 1:35 AM
Post #28 of 49
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1000 feet? that would put a hole in the bottom of your nalgene.
bullshit
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ryanhos
Jan 16, 2004, 2:37 AM
Post #29 of 49
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In reply to: Depends on the size of the water tank and (as always) the size of the pipe, but you don't see more than about 30 pounds of water per minute coming from your faucet. but lets do some quick calculations shall we? We'll say that the tank is open to air entirely so suction is not a problem (otherwise you need a pump to move the water, especially with the size of the hole we'll be using). Lets further say that the size of our pipe is an inch and a half in diameter but also collapsable so air resistance is a non-issue when the water is descending (also makes it easier to retrieve). That means that it will take 7.8 seconds for the water to go from the tank to the user. So ignoring friction, when the water hits the user, it will be going at about 250 feet per second. By comparison, average highway speed is about 50 feet per second. Doing some further calculations, we find that the downward force coming out of the nozzle at the other end is in excess of 10000 lbs of force (or about 5500 psi flux through the nozzle), unless my 4 years of physics study are horribly off. Some ways to get around this: use a pump so that the amount of water in the tube is controlled very precisely, taper the tube so less water exits at the end (although this will increase the water pressure, not unlike putting your thumb over end of your garden hose), have smaller water tanks at regular intervals up the rock so that no hoses need to be lowered.
Now is this a troll?
You need to brush up on your physics. Sheesh....
50 fps = 34mph. You drive 34mph on the highways?
1.5 inch diameter pipe/tubing? Are you watering central park or hydrating climbers? At a full extension, that's roughly 735 lbs of water!
.75in^2 * pi * 12in/ft * 1000ft = 21205.8 in^3
21205.8in^3 = 734.4pints
734.4pt * 1lb/pt = 734.4lbs of H20
You'd need a winch to roll it back up! Reduce the diameter to a centimeter and it's only around 50 lbs of water.
.5cm^2 * pi * 1000ft * 30.5cm/1ft = 23954.6cm^3 or 23954.6ml
23954.6ml = 50.63pints * 1lb/pt = 50.63lbs
darned theoretical physicists.....never considering real world limitations.
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climbobsessoin
Jan 16, 2004, 3:57 AM
Post #30 of 49
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Now is this a troll?
You need to brush up on your physics. Sheesh....
50 fps = 34mph. You drive 34mph on the highways?
1.5 inch diameter pipe/tubing? Are you watering central park or hydrating climbers? At a full extension, that's roughly 735 lbs of water!
.75in^2 * pi * 12in/ft * 1000ft = 21205.8 in^3
21205.8in^3 = 734.4pints
734.4pt * 1lb/pt = 734.4lbs of H20
You'd need a winch to roll it back up! Reduce the diameter to a centimeter and it's only around 50 lbs of water.
.5cm^2 * pi * 1000ft * 30.5cm/1ft = 23954.6cm^3 or 23954.6ml
23954.6ml = 50.63pints * 1lb/pt = 50.63lbs
darned theoretical physicists.....never considering real world limitations.
and how long did that take to do???
Can you say no life but your computer and climbing
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xanx
Jan 16, 2004, 5:32 AM
Post #31 of 49
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um, takes about 30 seconds if u have any physics... 1.5 inches/ 12 inches/ft = .125 feet diameter / 2 = .0625 ft radius
volume of hose = pi x radius^2 x height
= pi x .0625^2 x 1000 = 12.2718 ft^3
water is about 62.4 lb per cubic foot, so 12.2718 cubic feet has a weight of about 765.76 pounds.
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corpse
Jan 16, 2004, 5:37 AM
Post #32 of 49
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Who cares how long it took to figure it out - sometimes its FUN to play the numbers like that.. Kinda like those ppl that gather all their kids birthdays and grandparents shoe sizes to play the lotto and waste their money (and money = time) - but they are having fun. And seeing some numbers (real and theoretical) puts a cool spin on it.
And if that "hose" is 1cm - how the hell they going to get it to someone? And if it's metal, still, how the hell they giong to get it to someone.
Water balloons could be a fun way..
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dynoguy
Jan 16, 2004, 5:38 AM
Post #33 of 49
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As long as it is hidden whats the big deal? Its not like someone is forcing you to use it.
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dynoguy
Jan 16, 2004, 5:55 AM
Post #35 of 49
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In reply to: In reply to: As long as it is hidden whats the big deal? Its not like someone is forcing you to use it. Beautiful. Keeping the dream alive with a line out of the gridbolter's arsenal. Brilliant!
What the hell was that for? :?
A tank of water hidden behind trees and netting and bolts dotting the wall like a connect the dots puzzle are two very different things
Back off!
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diesel___smoke
Jan 16, 2004, 6:02 AM
Post #36 of 49
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Hiding a huge, ugly water tank behind trees and netting would probably conceal it from tourists and other valley visitors eyes, but for the people who can make it to the summit of El Cap it would be very obscene.
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thrasher
Jan 16, 2004, 6:13 AM
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I was on the summit just before the first big snows in December and it looked like they had cleared an area in the trees just NE of the top of the Nose, about 150 yards from the edge. Not sure if it was for the tank or not.
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ryanhos
Jan 16, 2004, 7:29 AM
Post #38 of 49
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In reply to: and how long did that take to do??? Can you say no life but your computer and climbing
Dude, you got me, what can I say?
I have no life other than:
School (full time)
Fiance
Consulting job (part time)
Fraternity
Climbing
Cycling
Playing drums
Community service
...if you're good w/ the formulae, it only takes a minute to figure out. a minute to type it and 10 seconds waiting on the submit. 2 minutes and 10 seconds. It took me 2 minutes and 10 seconds. Gosh, I gotta get a life! I'm simply trying to lower the BS level around here. So many people talk out of their stinky orifices about physics and climbing. I don't know it all, but when I see a physics mistake, I try to give the correct answer as best I can.
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andypro
Jan 16, 2004, 8:10 AM
Post #39 of 49
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This is so damned entertaining. Hehe.
tossing fluid dynamics for both air and water aside by keeping the hose full so as to avoid acceleration (still thinkin of the 1.5 inch hose here) your gonna end up with about 433 psi (as has been mentioned). now...lets say you let that water fall 5 inches to the bottom of your empty water bottle it will generate somewhere around 777 pounds of force at impact on the bottom of the bottle instantaneously, and will ramp down form there quickly as the mass settles into it's container. Hot damn. If you could hold that much you could probably free solo whatever route on el cap in a time that would amke the hubers look like slugs, so you woudln't need it anyways.
Therefore...there is no need for the water tank, becuase the only people who would be able to use it wont need it anyways (and dont exist on this planet anyways :wink: )
Physics CAN be your friend :lol:
(and yes...I know the pressure can be dropped easily...I'm just making a johnny cochrane type argument here is all)
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andypro
Jan 16, 2004, 8:14 AM
Post #40 of 49
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In reply to: Dude, you got me, what can I say? I have no life other than: School (full time) Fiance Consulting job (part time) Fraternity Climbing Cycling Playing drums Community service ...if you're good w/ the formulae, it only takes a minute to figure out. a minute to type it and 10 seconds waiting on the submit. 2 minutes and 10 seconds. It took me 2 minutes and 10 seconds. Gosh, I gotta get a life! I'm simply trying to lower the BS level around here. So many people talk out of their stinky orifices about physics and climbing. I don't know it all, but when I see a physics mistake, I try to give the correct answer as best I can.
dont worry...He's just jealous :wink:
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thegreytradster
Jan 16, 2004, 4:09 PM
Post #41 of 49
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In reply to: This is so damned entertaining. Hehe. tossing fluid dynamics for both air and water aside by keeping the hose full so as to avoid acceleration (still thinkin of the 1.5 inch hose here) your gonna end up with about 433 psi (as has been mentioned). now...lets say you let that water fall 5 inches to the bottom of your empty water bottle it will generate somewhere around 777 pounds of force at impact on the bottom of the bottle instantaneously, and will ramp down form there quickly as the mass settles into it's container. Hot damn. If you could hold that much you could probably free solo whatever route on el cap in a time that would amke the hubers look like slugs, so you woudln't need it anyways. Physics CAN be your friend :lol: (and yes...I know the pressure can be dropped easily...I'm just making a johnny cochrane type argument here is all)
If you used a turbine and generator you could accomplish two things, drop the pressure and make electricity.
You could put in an outlet at each belay. This would give us a place to plug in a hot plate and blender as well as an AC unit or heater as the season dictated. Hauling could be done with electric wenches.
No more hauling those heavy batteries for the getto blaster.
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petsfed
Jan 16, 2004, 4:19 PM
Post #42 of 49
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In reply to: In reply to: Now is this a troll? You need to brush up on your physics. Sheesh.... 50 fps = 34mph. You drive 34mph on the highways? 1.5 inch diameter pipe/tubing? Are you watering central park or hydrating climbers? At a full extension, that's roughly 735 lbs of water! .75in^2 * pi * 12in/ft * 1000ft = 21205.8 in^3 21205.8in^3 = 734.4pints 734.4pt * 1lb/pt = 734.4lbs of H20 You'd need a winch to roll it back up! Reduce the diameter to a centimeter and it's only around 50 lbs of water. .5cm^2 * pi * 1000ft * 30.5cm/1ft = 23954.6cm^3 or 23954.6ml 23954.6ml = 50.63pints * 1lb/pt = 50.63lbs darned theoretical physicists.....never considering real world limitations. and how long did that take to do??? Can you say no life but your computer and climbing
It was that or do real physics for a paycheck. I couldn't focus on my grant proposal and it was easy physics, but yes reality doesn't really matter to most theoreticians.
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yosemite
Jan 16, 2004, 4:43 PM
Post #43 of 49
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In reply to: Hauling could be done with electric wenches. |
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seabee
Jan 16, 2004, 5:02 PM
Post #44 of 49
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OK, I'd rate this about a T4, both from the visceral reaction and the spinoff discussions.
In reply to: You'd need a winch to roll it back up! Reduce the diameter to a centimeter and it's only around 50 lbs of water. ... darned theoretical physicists.....never considering real world limitations.
Something that's been ignored so far is: You're going to hang 50 lbs of water on a hose that's 1cm diameter? How thick is the hose wall? Plus, add the weight of the hose itself -- let's just say for the sake of arguement that the hose weighs 100 grams/foot. That's 220 lbs of hose, plus the water, plus you've got to make it safe for sketched out climbers to grab onto in an emergency. We're going to need to find a hose that's made out of aramid fiber or something!
Engineers can find all kinds of reasons why it can't be done!
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rope_burn
Jan 16, 2004, 5:08 PM
Post #45 of 49
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Why don't they just get a remote control helicopter that is attached to a big water tank and whenever anyone calls down for some water, the helicopter can bring it up to them. Hell, why don't they just attach all the other gear that people don't want to be lugging during the day to the helicopter: sleeping bags, portaledges, etc. We could call it super aid climbing.
While I'm at it, I have another great idea. I think they should install some really long ropes on El Cap so that people can top rope it. If they put a bunch up, it would be like a super big climbing gym.
Just to clear things up. I think one of climbing's big aims is to keep the enviroment around the wall as much the same as when climbers came to it as possible. I don't want to get to the top of El Cap and see a huge water tank. Thats the type of thing I feel I am escaping when I climb (not water tanks but what it represents). I think it would rune it.
My helicopter idea wouldn't rune it though.
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thegreytradster
Jan 16, 2004, 6:07 PM
Post #46 of 49
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In reply to: In reply to: Hauling could be done with electric wenches. |
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climbersoze
Jan 16, 2004, 6:14 PM
Post #47 of 49
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In reply to: Hauling could be done with electric wenches.
Sweet... can we just have the "wenches" (nice catch Yosemite) go all the way to the ground, and haul me up there and that can be my first big aid climb.
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barrel
Jan 16, 2004, 7:13 PM
Post #48 of 49
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In reply to: Why don't they just get a remote control helicopter that is attached to a big water tank and whenever anyone calls down for some water, the helicopter can bring it up to them.
Great idea, but aren't there altitude limitations on RC helicopters? Could they get to the upper pitches? Plus the pilot, sitting down the the meadow, would have to be a pretty darn good pilot to keep from severing the appendages of those receiving aid. Makes for a sporting time in windy conditions...
Why not just use what Spock had in that Star Trek movie?
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lemmon_squeezer
Jan 16, 2004, 8:48 PM
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or even better... why not have a sign that says "you have to be this tall to ride this ride"? or build an elevator into the rock so everyone can make the ascent?
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