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fluxus
Jan 16, 2004, 6:42 PM
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fredrogers
Jan 16, 2004, 7:08 PM
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I have definitely felt the effects of peaking. I generally get more and more "in shape" over a 5-6 week period and then peak for about 2 weeks. After that, I can tell my performance is declining for about the next 2 weeks. I start to feel a little more sluggish on the rock and I take a rest of 1 week. So, I generally climb for a cycle of about 10 weeks and then take off 1 week. Sometimes I inadvertantly change the cycle and it could be only 7 weeks long or even 18 weeks long.
But it's not like I'm making a concerted effort to "time" my performance. I'm not attempting to peak for some road trip or competition. I just let it all happen naturally. The only thing I try to "time" is the rest week which I usually try to schedule during some week where I won't have any time to climb.
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rockprodigy
Jan 16, 2004, 10:18 PM
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I first read PRC back in the fall of '97. After that, I read Horsts book, and disected Yaniro's Fingers of Steel video and built myself a training program, which I first implemented in the spring of '98. I have done a 4 month training/peaking cycle every spring and fall since then and I have had pretty good results.
When I first started training back in '98 my hardest RP was a fluke 11d, but I was really a 5.11- climber. That first season I RP'd my first 12a, then my first 12b, then OS my first 12a. Since then, I have made pretty steady gains to get where I am now (just RP my first and second 13b's last fall). I train very systematically. a 16 (or so) week cycle goes like this:
-6 weeks ARC
-4-5 weeks Hypertrophy--on the hangboard
-2-3 weeks Max Recruitment (Campus board)
-2 weeks PE--sometimes in the gym, usually @ the crag
I definitely feel the effects of periodization. Usually by about 2-3 after I have officially ended my peak phase, I am completely weak, unable to climb 5.12/V4. By the end of the Hyp phase, I am usually getting in the 12+/V5 range, and by the end of the Recruitment phase, I am in the 13-/V6-7 range. That is about the time I will start working on my projects.
Typically, I enjoy about 4 weeks at my peak, which I would consider to be within 10% of my absolute best condition. At the beginning of the peak, I have more strength/power, and at the end of the peak I have more endurance, so I try to tailor my climbing goals accordingly. I work on short bouldery routes early in the peak, and longer endurance routes towards the end of my peak.
Last fall, I had a very long peak, I would say 6 weeks. I say that because I was able to RP a new 5.13 every week for 6 weeks straight. The first two routes in the first 2 weeks were very short, powerful routes. The third route was more a short PE route, the 4th was powerful, but techy. At that point, I felt like I had lost a lot of power already, but I was able to get by with technique...that was my first 13b, by the way. The 5th route, another 13b, was a classic long PE pumpfest, which was perfect at that point in my peak. Same with the 6th route, a 13a with no hard moves, but very sustained. At that point, the 6th week, 13a was definitely at my limit. I barely eeked out the RP of that route, and it really taxed me.
I can definitely feel when by body is peaking, and when the peak is starting to wear off. Although it is true that there are many factors which effect performance. Some of my best RP's were at times when I did not feel like I was physically the strongest, but I just had a good day. Other times, I have felt like I was physically at my peak, but I am unable to capitalize on it because I don't have a route worked out yet, or something of that nature.
Another thing about me is that I don't spend a lot of time RP'ing routes. I rarely spend more than 4 days on one route. If I had spent my 6 weeks last fall on one route, I probably could have RP'd one 13c, and maybe nothing else, but I prefer going for quantity...it's not so frustrating.
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fredrogers
Jan 16, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Rockprodigy, can you give some more details about each of your training sections (ARC, hypertrophy, max recruit, PE)? What do you specifically do for each of these units? I assume you're not just hangboarding for 4 weeks. Can you give an example of a typical week from each unit?
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fredrogers
Jan 17, 2004, 12:02 AM
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I've never gotten real scientific with my training schedule but I tried to glean practical info out of PRC. In 2000 I tried to put myself on a general schedule based somewhat on Goddard's info. Here's what I used to do:
1 week rest
1-2 weeks easy climbing, usually indoors to get a "base". Climbing about 2-3 days a week. Not really adhering, though, to the ARC style.
4-6 weeks bouldering or campusing - no routes. Working on and completing bouldering projects. Some campusing. Going mostly 3, sometimes 4 days a week.
4-6 weeks route climbing - no bouldering. Working on and completing redpoint projects. Climbing sometimes 3, mostly 4 days a week.
1 week rest
Roughly a 10-15 week cycle that consisted almost entirely of bouldering or routes with little to no other exercises (such as weights, campus, HIT training, system board). I focused very hard on getting outside for most sessions. I guess I would get 2 peaks using this method. A bouldering peak and then a route peak during their respective focused periods.
The simple fact that I got a little organized about my climbing helped me get to 12d pretty quick from my, then fitness levels of about 11d/12a. I then started to drift away from this general program and now try to mix climbing and bouldering whenever possible (though not in the same day). I guess I found it a little tough always having to adapt from bouldering only to routes only. Now I'm OK at either discipline at any given moment and my general fitness gets a little better each year, about a letter grade better each year.
I'll have to write more later. It's Friday and I'm off for a 3 day weekend.
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rockprodigy
Jan 17, 2004, 12:33 AM
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I have found that I always perform better, over the course of a season, if I stick to my training regime. I have had certain seasons, where I was unable follow it for whatever reason, so I just bouldered like everyone else, and I was never able to get as strong as when I strictly trained.
One advantage of peaking is that it takes the pressure off you during the rest of the season. For example, I can climb easy alpine routes in the summer, or go ice climbing in the winter without feeling like I should be working on a project of something. The way I do it now, I have two 4-6 week periods each year, where I really "need" to perform, and I like it that way. On the other hand, there is a lot of pressure to send during those 6 weeks.
More info coming....
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overlord
Jan 17, 2004, 11:23 AM
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i also found out that making a good training plan and sticking with it is good. it really helped me. i have a similar program than prodigy, i just dont have a campusboard, so i do boulders and hangboard for strenght.
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rockprodigy
Jan 19, 2004, 1:25 AM
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OK, my training goes like this:
ARC phase: Nothing but ARC! I start out slow, and gradually increase the training volume. So, the first workout of the season, I do two 30-minute ARC sets with 10 minutes rest between sets. I start out on alternating days, then increase throughout the 4-6 weeks that I do ARC. By the end of the ARC phase a typical week is like:
Sat: ARC, 3x30min
Sun: ARC, 3X30min
Mon: ARC, 2x30min
Tue: rest (cardio exercise)
Wed: ARC, 3x30min
Thur: ARC, 2x30min
Fri: rest (cardio)
repeat...
Hypertrophy: This is all on the hangboard. My standard hangboard workout is as follows: After I warmup, I work 8-10 grip positions, each grip position is called a "set", therefore, I do 8-10 "sets". Each set consists of 5 "reps". A rep is a 10 second hang on the selected grip position. I rest 5 seconds between reps, and 2-3 minutes between sets. So each set looks like this: 5x10seconds w/ 5 sec rest. For example, I start out on a sloper, I hang for 10 sec, off for 5, on for 10, etc. until 5 reps are complete, then I rest for 2 minutes. The next set, I move to another grip, i.e., two finger pocket. I have a setup with pullies and weights that allows me to add or subtract weight as necessary to cause total failure after 10 seconds.
After the hangboard workout, I like to lift on my pulling muscles: biceps, triceps, abs, back. There is no typical week in the Hypertrophy phase because a lot of it depends on how long it takes me to feel "recovered" from the previous workout (they are very taxing). Sometimes I need two days to recover, sometimes 3. Also, sometimes I climb outside on the weekend, which throws off the schedule. Here is a likely two week period:
Sat: Hangboard w/o
Sun: ARC 2x30min
Mon: rest (cardio)
Tue: Hangboard w/o
Wed: rest (cardio)
Thur: Hangboard w/o
Fri: rest (cardio)
Sat: Climb hard routes or boulder outside (Hypertrophy)
Sun: Climb easy routes outside (ARC)
Mon: rest (cardio)
Tue: Hangboard w/o
Wed: ARC 2x30min
Thur: rest (cardio)
Fri: Hangboard w/o
Sat: climb easy outside.
Towards the end of the Hypertrophy phase, I shorten the rep lengths and increase the rest between reps as a "taper" to prepare for the maximum recruitment phase.
Max Recruitment phase: This is the campus phase. While I can usually do 3 Hangboard workouts per week, I can't do that many campus workouts. They take more time to recover from. A typical campus board workout is as follows. 20 minute ARC session, followed by bouldering of increasing difficulty for about 20 minutes, then I get on the campus board. I shoot for 6-8 sets on the board, but I play it by how I feel. One set is one excursion up (and sometimes down) the board. My first two sets are usually pretty easy, then I do the harder stuff until I feel like I have lost the "explosiveness" from my muscles. Jim Karn himself told me that once you loose the "pop" in your muscles, you are just wasting your time, and I tend to agree. Once I'm done on the campus board, I boulder on plastic until I can't climb V3's.
Typical week in the max recruitement phase:
Sat: Boulder or hard routes outside
Sun: rest
Mon: Campus
Tue: ARC 2x30min
Wed: rest
Thur: Campus
Fri: rest
repeat
Power Endurance Phase: As I have said before, I am probably not doing this correctly, but here goes. A standard PE workout is to warmup, boulder a bit (work on any projects I might have in the gym), then pick 3 or 4 boulder problems I can link without stopping that will cause failure in 25-30 moves...that is one "set". I do 3 sets with full recovery between sets. A typical week is:
Sat: Routes outside
Sun: Routes
Mon: rest
Tue: rest
Wed: PE workout
Thur: ARC 2x30min
Fri: rest
repeat
That is the whole thing.
Last Friday, I went back through all of my training journals since '98 and summarized how much time I spent on each phase, how well I adhered to the training, and what significant accomplishments I made each season. In summary, I can say that every time I have used periodization and stuck to the program I have had a personal best for that season. There is one exception, where I trained pretty strictly, but I couldn't capitolize because the weather was really bad that spring and I only climbed outside 2 or 3 days the whole season.
There was one season where I did the general program, but instead of hangboard and campus workouts, I just bouldered in the gym. This resulted in a shorter peak, that was not as intense.
I think the major benefit to my training program is that the time I spend on training is definitely quality time. I would guess that you could spend twice the time I do training by "just bouldering" or doing routes, and I would still make bigger gains throughout the season because the time I spend is always contributing to my training...there is no waste.
There is no "perfect" training program, but this has worked for me so far. I am constantly tweaking it, and I will continue to do so. This season, I've made these changes: 1. climb with a "mild pump" during ARC workouts 2. Shorter reps during hangboard workouts. We'll see how it turns out.
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muncher
Jan 19, 2004, 3:11 AM
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Thanks for that post rockprodigy, that would have to be one of the best posts I have read in this forum. I have just had a couple of weeks off due to illness and am pretty fired up to get back into it again. Maybe I will give periodisation a serious go this time. In the past I have found that by keeping things flexible and training whatever I feel my current weaknesses are has lead to steady improvement. This time however, maybe I will give your program a go rockprodigy, hopefully I can gain the same benfits as you have. If not then least I have already got something that works to fall back on.
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overlord
Jan 19, 2004, 8:59 AM
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prodigy: did you copy from me????
nice program.
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sto
Jan 19, 2004, 5:38 PM
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Inspiring. I'm breaking out the calendar now.
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fredrogers
Jan 20, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Rockprodigy, great detailed post about your training. If anyone else out there can get this detailed, I'd love to see their info. Personally, my climbing is a bit more haphazard than yours but you inspire me to do some hangboard workouts.
It sounds like you focus mostly on routes but also go bouldering. Do you feel like you get a "power peak" and an "endurance peak". Is a lot of this climbing indoors or do you get outside a lot?
Have you ever tried to incorporate weightlifting? I tried it once and just couldn't stick with it more than 2-3 weeks.
I guess I was going to write a little more about my current program but I don't have much to write. Like I said, things are a bit too haphazard now and I generally focus on whatever is in season or depends on whether my next road trip is bouldering vs. sport routes. I'm a little better at planning out the current week - balancing power bouldering vs. enduro routes while trying to ensure plenty of rest. But I'm always on the lookout for a new ideas.
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rockprodigy
Jan 21, 2004, 12:24 AM
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This is from my first post in this thread:
In reply to: Typically, I enjoy about 4 weeks at my peak, which I would consider to be within 10% of my absolute best condition. At the beginning of the peak, I have more strength/power, and at the end of the peak I have more endurance, so I try to tailor my climbing goals accordingly. I work on short bouldery routes early in the peak, and longer endurance routes towards the end of my peak.
So yes, I have a "power peak" and an "endurance peak", however, I don't consider them to be discrete points, but rather a spectrum throughout my 4-6 week peak phase.
My training is purely directed at routes. I consider bouldering to be a means to an end, but not an end in itself. In other words, I train for routes, not for boulders. (Just my personal preference by the way, no ill-will intended) Most of the bouldering mentioned in my training program takes place in the gym. I boulder outside on occasion, but usually when I do, I find that I don't feel like I got a thorough workout. So, I prefer to boulder indoors, where getting a good workout is never a problem.
I do lift weights. I kind of hid it in there with the Hypertrophy phase. I lift after I do my Hangboard workout so as to incorporate other muscles, not just my forearms. I do chest press (gotta look good at the crag), bicep curls, lat pulls, some very lightweight shoulder lifts (I have bad shoulders from wrestling in HS, tricep extensions, reverse forearm curls, and a couple abdominal exercises for body tension. I came up with this routine because it seemed like these lifts apply to climbing movements more than others. I try to do this routine 3 days a week, but I often don't make that. I figure climbing is more important.
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scubasnyder
Jan 21, 2004, 12:35 AM
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i think it depends on how much you work your body out, if you climb every day eventually you will get better and not get worse from that point unless you stop working out, ive been lifting for a number of years and noticed that before you want to max out or do a harder climb take a day break and climb little less harder than u normally would a few days before, but this is just my opinion so.
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overlord
Jan 21, 2004, 2:04 PM
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i have something similary deteiled. ill try and convert it. its an table 7 days wide by 18 weeks long. ill try to post it as it is... just give me a day ot two.
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rockprodigy
Jan 23, 2004, 12:58 AM
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Hey Fluxus...where'd you go?
I get the impression that you do not advocate training in phases in order to create a performance peak.
-If so, do you train multiple aspects at once, and if so how do you arrange that throughout the week and throughout the season?
-I assume you don't train continuously year-round...that would certainly lead to injury, right? Do you plan rest cycles and performance cycles?
-Have you been able to sustain improvement over the years without using periodization and peaking? If so, is it quantified in a way that you know your muscles are actually stronger, and it's not just improved technique, etc.?
I ask because it seems to me that if you do not use periodization, it is only a matter of time before you hit a plateau, physically. I realize you can improve the other aspects of climbing (flexibility, technique, menal, etc.) and improve your overall climbing performance even though you physically aren't much stronger.
Is it possible to continually get stronger without using periodization??
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bellatoris
Feb 18, 2004, 7:57 PM
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I have also started to periodize and find myself much stronger now. This is now the start of week 5, probably the last of my power phase, before I hit the P.E. phase. I increased my bouldering grade by two and would like to add more power, hence the question: should I keep working power (hard bouldering and weighted system boarding) until I plateau, or move onto the next phase before I lose all power endurance (almost pumped out on everything at O.R.G. this weekend)?
Thanks in advance.
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madmax
Feb 18, 2004, 8:37 PM
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Ooops...I thought this thread had something to do with hallucinogens.
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 19, 2004, 5:47 AM
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since I pretty much only boulder i break up my training into 10 week cycles and every 10weeks I make up a list of weaknesses and intregrate them into a new training program. I never liked the idea of peaking since it is meant more for people with a set time table of trips or comps.
What I am doing now
2wks-general conditioning
Mon/Wed/Fri- Campusing, Static Abdominal training and high mileage climbing (for me around 40 V5s)
Tue/Thur/Sat- Cardio, Large pull muscles, Dynamic abdominal training
4wks-Absolute strength training
Mon/Wed/Fri- One arm hangs, one arm locks offs, static abdominal training, half and half of high mileage climbing and hard redpoints
Tue/Thur- Cardio, Large pull muscles and dynamic abdominal training
Sat- Attempts on outdoor projects
4wks-Refined strength training
Mon/Wed/Fri- Hard Campusing, static abdominal training, hard redpoints
Tue/Thur- Same as above
Sat- Same as above
At the end of this my strengths maintain a little and my weaknesses are strengthen a little, so in the end I become a better climber
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 19, 2004, 5:48 AM
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since I pretty much only boulder i break up my training into 10 week cycles and every 10weeks I make up a list of weaknesses and intregrate them into a new training program. I never liked the idea of peaking since it is meant more for people with a set time table fpr trips or comps. I am too random with going outdoors for major trips
What I am doing now
2wks-general conditioning
Mon/Wed/Fri- Campusing, Static Abdominal training and high mileage climbing (for me around 40 V5s)
Tue/Thur/Sat- Cardio, Large pull muscles, Dynamic abdominal training
4wks-Absolute strength training
Mon/Wed/Fri- One arm hangs, one arm locks offs, static abdominal training, half and half of high mileage climbing and hard redpoints
Tue/Thur- Cardio, Large pull muscles and dynamic abdominal training
Sat- Attempts on outdoor projects
4wks-Refined strength training
Mon/Wed/Fri- Hard Campusing, static abdominal training, hard redpoints
Tue/Thur- Same as above
Sat- Same as above
At the end of this my strengths maintain a little and my weaknesses are strengthen a little, so in the end I become a better climber
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bucephalus
Feb 19, 2004, 6:39 AM
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My personal experience with peaking is the following:
(a) Building Power
After a 6 month injury break last year, I started climbing again with a decent base of power from weights (weighted pull-ups etc) and quickly settled into a bouldering cycle - 2 days a week at an indoor wall, and a day on the weekend bouldering outside. My climbing improved steadily, but kinda slowly, augmented with some weights work.
(b) Peaking
In retrospect, I can remember the day I started peaking. I went out bouldering with a friend (I'm including grades not to spray, but to show the progression) and quickly knocked off a V6 and V7, which is pretty damn good for me, and given that where I climb is as sandbagged in that grade as anywhere in the world. I stopped climbing indoors too.
A few days later I went for a quick boulder after work, and wrapped up the second ascent of a V7 that had been tried by lots of people, and almost got the second ascent of a V8 (the foothold broke off as I hit the finishing jug, and the problem is now about V12). The next weekend, a hard V8 went down, and soon after that, two more.
Make no mistake, up to this point I'd only done one V8 and one V9 (which was somewhat suited to me), so I was climbing waaaaaaay above my ability.
Then, on a road trip, I sent my first V10.
A week later, I was as burned out as could be, and ended up taking a month off due to physical burnout and lack of motivation.
What I need to do now, is work out how to recreate that magical peak, as I have a much better base of strength now...
BTW: Rockprodigy, your program seems awesome, I may try it.
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sidepull
May 9, 2005, 8:19 PM
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I'm curious about the potential differences between a macrocycle created for boulderers versus the program laid out in PRC which is generally for route climbers or competition climbers. I would expect that they should differ some because with bouldering endurance (except if you're name Dai) is rarely the issue. That said, boulderers might still need to build the same ARC base in order to train their power and power endurance. Thoughts?
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andy_reagan
May 9, 2005, 10:32 PM
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whoa, old post! Thanks for bringing it back up to the top though, since I'm actually in the process of designing my own periodized schedule to attempt to create a "peak" around mid-late October.
Right now I'm redpointing hard 11s (one 11d, one 11c, 2 11b, etc) and onsighting 10b-10c. I am rather inexperienced route climber, in general, but have visited areas all around the country and have just now seriously focused my attention on route climbing (it was always a fun time having my forearms flame out as a boulderer whenever jumping on routes that hinted at being endurancey!).
My goals are to broaden my redpoint "pyramid" and push my redpoint level to 12a (if it doesn't happen sometime this summer before I start this macrocycle, which in that case would change the goal to be to add another couple 12a's to my base and attempt to push into 12b's) and push my onsight level up to 11a.
Here's the rough draft of my schedule:
Foundation Phase:
4 weeks:
M: ARC 2x20 mins
T: Cardio, Abs
W: Bouldering - circuit training, light intensity
TH: Cardio, Abs
F: Rest
S: High Volume Outdoors
SU: High Volume Outdoors
Power Phase:
4 weeks:
M: Bouldering Outside - Power
T: Cardio, Abs
W: Bouldering Outside - Power
TH: Cardio, Abs
F: Rest
S: Bouldering Outside - Power
SU: ARC 2x20 mins
I have in the back of my mind probably every other week during this phase one of my bouldering days will be at a lower intensity combined with ARC 2x20 mins to reduce the stress load.
Rest Phase:
1 week:
M: ARC 2x20 mins
T: Cardio, Abs
W: ARC 2x20 mins
TH: Cardio, Abs
F: Off
S: Abs, Circuit Bouldering – light intensity
SU: Off
Power Endurance Phase:
3 weeks:
M: Cardio, Abs, ARC 2x20 mins
T: Off
W: PE - bouldering
TH: Cardio, Abs
F: Off
S: PE - laps on routes or bouldering
S: PE - laps on routes or bouldering
Maybe if I'm feeling drained the first week Sunday will be ARC 2x20 mins instead of another day of PE.
Peak Phase: I'm going to obviously be playing the duration of this phase by ear as I have never tried periodization before. Hopefully at least a peak of 3 weeks which will give me ample time to get outside to work on projects.
Rest Phase: 30 days no climbing
So obviously my emphasis is placed on getting outside and actually climbing as way of training (which probably isnt a bad idea seeing as when this schedule starts I will only have climbed for 1.5 years. As well, I am going to try to do a couple conditioning workouts twice per week whenever convienient (pushups, dips, etc) but left that off for simplicity's sake.
Please tell me what you think. Very interested in experienced people's opinions.
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sidepull
Jun 22, 2005, 4:19 PM
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Where do lockoffs fit into periodization and how do you train them?
In other words, WHERE meaning endurance, power endurance or power phase?
and
HOW meaning A) just lock off and hang for as long as you can B) do say 10 pullups locking off at 120, 90, and the top for every rep C) all of the above D) other?
(NOTE: I do alot of my training away from rock due to distance issues so please no "just go climbing" answers or "find boulder problems that require long static reaches" Thanks)
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sidepull
Jun 23, 2005, 4:30 PM
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^
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please respond to post above, er, I mean bump.
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