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munckee
Feb 4, 2004, 9:26 PM
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I for one prefer photos to drawings. I find that often a route that looks good in a drawing is lacking once I get there. Or its very difficult to find because the author didn't draw some major landmarks or something. With the advent of digicams, I would imagine that it would be relatively easy (albeit possibly more expensive) to use primarily photos rather than drawings.
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muncher
Feb 4, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #27 of 52
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In addition to what has been posted previously, if you are going to include topos then make sure the route description is on the same or opposite page such that both can be seen at the same time. It can get really annoying having to flick backwards and forwards trying to match them up sometimes. A bit petty maybe but something very simple to fix.
For a model of how a guidebook should be, check out the fantastic Blue Mountains guidebook by Martin Pircher and Simon Carter. Ok so maybe that is not very practical but this guide has everything you could possibly need, history, ethics, environment, rest day activities, grade frequency chart for each crag, detailed topos, detailed access descriptions (including public transport options), how long it takes to walk to the crag, when the crag gets sun/shade, if the crag stays dry in the rain, how family friendly an area is, general style of the routes at the crag (i.e. sport or trad, lower offs, walk offs etc), some gear requirements where needed, a few witty comments and sandbags here and there and a great tick list at the end listing every route for each grade and a few typically awesome pics by Simon thrown in as well.
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brianinslc
Feb 4, 2004, 9:48 PM
Post #28 of 52
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In reply to: In addition to what has been posted previously, if you are going to include topos then make sure the route description is on the same or opposite page such that both can be seen at the same time. It can get really annoying having to flick backwards and forwards trying to match them up sometimes. A bit petty maybe but something very simple to fix.
Another thing that is annoying...keep the route number the same, all the way thru the guide. Some guidebooks have the annoying habit of renumbering...route 114 is route 12 on the next page. Or, route 12 in Chapter 1 is different than route 12 in Chapter 4.
Picky picky...
Brian in SLC
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mandrake
Feb 4, 2004, 10:07 PM
Post #29 of 52
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What irritates me most about guidebooks: when they're wrong. Sometimes very very, irritating.
To a certain extent, the nature of the area determines the nature of the guidebook. Is it multi-pitch trad? If so, then I like guidebooks that use photographs to orient, and then accurate topos to detail (to a point) the route. Does it have 1500 sport routes? Then I like good topos with bolt counts. Review the previous guidebook's star ratings and don't be shy about changing them. See if you can get people on some of the less-climbed routes in the area (without sending them onto some unprotected 40' choss-fest).
Personally, I'm less concerned about being entertained, and I'm generally not particularly interested in an extensive history of an area unless you're doing a book on a really significant area (Yosemite, Josh). If I want reading material, I'll get a real book. I want to climb: I'd like the guidebook as small, cheap, accurate, and clear as possible.
Would I buy a second guidebook to the same area? Not unless there's a significant number of new routes not covered in the old guide or not unless the old guide had been pretty crappy. Or the new one really good (hello, Supertopos?). Sorry, but I'd rather spend money on gear or beer.
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drkodos
Feb 4, 2004, 10:52 PM
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Not only is the Gunks the best place to climb, it has generated the best guidebook(s).
http://images.amazon.com/...E_PI_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
&
http://www.northeastguidebooks.com/...uct/gunksselects.jpg
Although much maligned, the Swain guide is brilliant in its mixture of humour, history, beta, advice, and errors.
For the more serious, the Williams select covers history, excellent historic pics, more accurate route info, and Dick's drier sense of humour.
They both also leave a lot out, for those that wish to generate the illusion they are finding something on their own for the first time.
A must for any guidebook afficianado, even if one never intends to climb at the Gunks, and certainly excellent models to aim for.
Guidebooks that hold your hand (Supertopo) are assinine, although it sells to the cowering masses that cannot figure out for themselves how someone would descend froma route. I prefer the Vogel/J Tree approach.
Nuts and bolts, and lots of them.
Sherman's Hueco Tanks is still a classic bedtime read appropraite for tucking in the little ones....
If money is the goal, then show as much beta as possible, maybe even move by move idiocy for the majority of people currently getting into the sport.
Error is a part of the process. Relying on guide books in general is folly.
Bitter Old Timey Rant Warning/Disclaimer
Developement of climbing skills allows one to forgo the guidebook process altogether and just concentrate on climbing as in the past, when the best thing we had was a rain smeared mimeograph of a napkin that held a rumour that there might be a climb somewhere up that canyon.....
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brianinslc
Feb 5, 2004, 7:23 PM
Post #31 of 52
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In reply to: Not only is the Gunks the best place to climb, it has generated the best guidebook(s).
Sheesh...you're so new school...
http://mtncommunity.org/...402297693eeb7196.jpg
Sorry for the crappy copy...but...all I gots on short notice...
Note the 13 year old bolt, next to a shiny new one...
Brian in SLC
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fredbob
Feb 5, 2004, 7:58 PM
Post #32 of 52
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Nice use of the 72 Williams guide! (Looks rather used too).
Perhaps because the guide was published by the AAC, it included dual rating systems: Decimal and the UIAA. Never heard of the UIAA rating system? Fortunately, it faded in to well deserved obscurity, as it refused to recognize that climbs could be any harder than 5.10a (e.g.: saying Solid Gold and Realization are the same grade!) The UIAA shows what great things can be developed by a committee.
BTW: The top bolt looks to have much more character and I like the earthy tones.
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fredbob
Feb 5, 2004, 9:52 PM
Post #34 of 52
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Exhibit A:
1. Chouinard Alcoa biner. Without looking it up, maybe 1959-62?
2. Wilts 1974 reprint edition of Tahquitz & Suicide guide, self published. Has 21pp supplement in back. 1973 edition looks almost identical, but was puiblished by AAC.
Exhibit B:
1. Leeper bolt hanger (looks basically new). Not the kind of thing you would to see on a long run out route....
2. SMC hanger (looks new) Looks to be the newer thicker hanger (safer), but not sure.
3. Two - Rawl 1.25 inch x 1/4 inch compression bolts (new). Most of the in-situ ones remaining are pretty manky and need replacement. These used to be the pinnacle of face protection!
4. Wolfe 1978 edition Josh guide. Without looking inside you can't tell which of the three printings it is.
Funny, I remember using all of the above in about the same time frame and placed quite a few of those 1/4 inch bolts button heads. And in comparison to some of the old home-made hangers, the Leeper and SMC's were thought to be pretty bomber.
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dbarandiaran
Feb 6, 2004, 2:22 AM
Post #36 of 52
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may be fun, but please try to stay on subject, this thread is about thoughts on guidebooks. you should start up a climbing artifacts thread, though, those pictures of yours are pretty cool
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dwise
Feb 6, 2004, 2:45 AM
Post #37 of 52
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Biggest pet peeve: lousy directions to the crag. The best topos in the world are no better than toilet paper if following lame directions only gets you to within a 3-state radius.
Also, a good reference point to start the list of routes. OTW you end up spending hours looking at bolts all over a wall trying to find some distinguishing characteristic. Photos of the crag work well.
As for your second question: No, unless it's vastly superior and contains numerous new routes or additional areas. Especially, If I'm already familiar with an area.
I also liked the idea already mentioned about loose leaf binding (especially for multi-pitch climbing areas). An example is Steve Cheney's guidebook to Turkey Rock and Sheep's Nose 'For Turkeys Only.' That way, you don't need to lug some mighty tome of arcane lore up a route.
Guidebooks may become a dying breed with the ease of downloading them online, though.
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escale
Feb 7, 2004, 6:15 AM
Post #38 of 52
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Yeah guide books will slowly become collector's items. I think USGS maps, GPS and a compass will always be the explorers basic tools for finding new areas. I guess once someone shows you an area, it's a blast to launch up a route without beta. Just winging it from pitch to pitch.
Yes, I agree, not everyone has a GPS. I think making the directions simple, and include landmarks along with mileage at waypoints would help. Actually, if one has a map or a picture of a map with mileage, even a homemade one really works well if it has landmarks every so often. GPS and waypoints would probably be the best, but not everyone has one. Naturally one should put waypoints that will not move in hundreds of years.
I followed a guide that used the name Debra painted on a boulder as graffiti as a landmark and I didn’t really see it until I came in one night with my car lights on it. It could barely be seen now. In the day it was just to weathered to see clearly.
So, I guess wells, windmills, milemarkers, roadsigns, streams, dry creeks, bridges, buildings and other non movable landmarks would all work fine. I noticed no one referred to using compass’ anymore. But some guides refer to north, south, east and west sometimes. That can be helpful only if you know which way north is exactly.
---Escale.
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bobd1953
Feb 7, 2004, 7:42 AM
Post #39 of 52
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In reply to: For the more serious, the Williams select covers history, excellent historic pics, more accurate route info, and Dick's drier sense of humour.
I think Art Gran guidebook is way better.
And don't overlook Jim Erickson's classic "Rocky Heights" a great guidebook to the Boulder area.
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fredbob
Feb 7, 2004, 5:06 PM
Post #40 of 52
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In reply to: may be fun, but please try to stay on subject, this thread is about thoughts on guidebooks. you should start up a climbing artifacts thread, though, those pictures of yours are pretty cool
Normal thread drift....
Exh. A:
1. Roper guide to Yosemite Valley, 1971, though I suspect it is not the 1st edition/printing (whihc is postbound), probably one of the later prinings (there were at leat a dozen). It was in print up to recent times, making it one of the most outdated guides in print.
2. BD RURP
3. Not sure if this is an early Chouinard RURP or not; interesting blade though.
Exh. B:
1. George Meyers, Yosemite guide, 1978. Started a brief trend of 8.5 x 11 inch ringbound topo guide formats. Was one of the first topo guides to a U.S. climbing area. Mountain Letters, the publisher was Royal Robbins imprint.
2. Longware early Bong. late 1960s.
Exh. C.
1. John Muir's In the Yosemite, no way to tell what edition.
2. Rafi Bedayn's oval biner. This was the first domestically produced carabiner and dates from mid 1950s.
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fredbob
Feb 7, 2004, 6:59 PM
Post #41 of 52
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In reply to: I think Art Gran guidebook is way better. And don't overlook Jim Erickson's classic "Rocky Heights" a great guidebook to the Boulder area.
Gran's guide is a classic, as is Roper's 1964 edition to the Valley. But hardbound guidebooks (with dust jackets no less) weren't the best suited to the rigors of climbing packs and back pockets.
Anyone know what kind of dust jacket was on the 1964 Gran guide? Or what was the real first guide to the Gunks?
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jds100
Feb 7, 2004, 7:19 PM
Post #42 of 52
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Mister barandiarian, if you need to solicit this much "advice" on writing a guidebook, I'd suggest you give it some serious second-thoughts. Just as it is with any other product or service, if you don't have a strong sense of direction and purpose of why you want to do it -why the product or service you want to offer is a significant improvement on the existing standard, and that there is a preexisting need or desire for it or that you can create the need- you're going to waste a lot of someone's money.
And, that's the other point: a guidebook that someone might consider spending money to purchase is going to cost a sizable chunk to publish. This better be money that you can comfortably plan on not recouping for years, if ever.
Good luck.
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bootyhead
Feb 8, 2004, 4:45 PM
Post #43 of 52
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The new standard by which all rockclimbing guidebooks will be judged is the upcoming( on the shelves in about a month) Indian Creek Rock Climbs by David Bloom and Sharp End Publishing. It's thick, funny, interesting, moderately priced and it's in full color, cover to cover. :!:
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csoles
Feb 8, 2004, 5:17 PM
Post #44 of 52
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In reply to: 3. Not sure if this is an early Chouinard RURP or not; interesting blade though. 2. Rafi Bedayn's oval biner. This was the first domestically produced carabiner and dates from mid 1950s.
Looks like a CMI Cracktack or a Dolt.
Commonly claimed about the Bedayn biner but false. Alcoa made aluminum oval biners for the Army starting in '41.
Back to the thread, Rossiter's topo only guide is still the best for Boulder classics. But Erickson's writing is superior to most. A guidebook that doesn't fit in the pocket of Standup shorts isn't worth buying ;-)
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brianinslc
Feb 9, 2004, 3:59 PM
Post #45 of 52
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In reply to: John Muir's In the Yosemite, no way to tell what edition.
Bzzzt. Mountains of California, first edition.
In reply to: Looks like a CMI Cracktack or a Dolt.
I have a couple of cracktacks and it doesn't really look like any of them. Its kind of a rough piece. Was hoping for an early coonyard, but, could be a dolt. No markings. Hmmm....
In reply to: Commonly claimed about the Bedayn biner but false. Alcoa made aluminum oval biners for the Army starting in '41.
Yeah, thats what I'd heard as well. Had seen an old coin company aluminum army carabiner a while back. Oval shape. Interesting.
Dang thread drift...
So...how old are the PA's?
http://mtncommunity.org/...4027ac8063330aee.jpg
Bonus points for the guidebook title...some good hints...
In reply to: A guidebook that doesn't fit in the pocket of Standup shorts isn't worth buying ;-)
Here's a classic and fits right in the shirt pocket whilst bouldering at the beach...'bout all a feller needs in a guidebook...and hey, back on thread topic...
http://mtncommunity.org/...4027ac9463345eb2.jpg
Brian in SLC
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rockitjeff
Feb 13, 2004, 1:26 AM
Post #46 of 52
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..that old OC Hunk guide actually listed a couple of crags that were little more than dirt-consolidated road cuts.. . Fredbob was not too discriminating back in the day…. guess that's why they call it HUNK?
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harrisha
Feb 13, 2004, 1:30 AM
Post #47 of 52
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Registered: Oct 31, 2003
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Better locations as to specific routes to avoid toping out and realizing the route you did isn't the one you'd planed to do.
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sbclimber
Feb 13, 2004, 2:22 AM
Post #48 of 52
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check out "Ocean's elleven" by Bob Banks, bouldering in Santa Barbara. Now THAT is a good guidebook.
they should have enough stuff to read to satiate the boredom between sessions.
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rockfax
Feb 13, 2004, 2:50 AM
Post #49 of 52
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In reply to: The new standard by which all rockclimbing guidebooks will be judged
is..........
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=56
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rockfax
Feb 13, 2004, 2:52 AM
Post #50 of 52
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and this slew.....
http://www.rockrun.com/shop/type.html?d=17&t=256&sid=e3beec6feec52a086622e8abc939d6d1
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