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mike_the_sumo
Feb 16, 2004, 6:41 PM
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myAtlas Shrugged is a great book, if you're 16 and looking for an oversimplified view of life that you can use to justify strutting around, being a jerk to people, and feeling superior
I see it as quite the opposite - at 16, one is still expecting that the world owes him something. Mommy and Daddy have provided everything, often at the expense of their own happiness, and there's no reason to believe the world operates differently. In fact, the looters portrayed in that book are no different than the typical 16 year old. They often "strut around, being a jerk to people, and feeling superior". Read through the 'blogs of people that age or talk to any high school teacher. Listen to the complaints of "mom took away my car again" (never mind who's paying for the f***ing thing). This is a far cry from the portrayal of John Galt.
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gat
Feb 16, 2004, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's this doing in the General forum? JV There is of yet no Overhyped-slush-for-pseudo-intellectuals forum to which it can be fitted properly.
:D
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skiclimb
Feb 16, 2004, 9:44 PM
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Looks to me like Atlas shrugged hit a few looters between the eyes...lol
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brutusofwyde
Feb 16, 2004, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: Yes, US is the most individualistic country of them al' but that doesn't mean this philosophy could not apply anywhere else.
Most individualistic country of them all??
Ahh, how does that explain why the U.S. government feels it is necessary to protect people from their own actions with mandatory seat belt and helmet laws, with bans on climbing El Capitan during the tourist season (circa Harding et al) and bans on attempting the Diamond...
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tobin_kelly
Feb 16, 2004, 10:34 PM
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I read Atlas Shrugged last year. I say 'read' but to frank I had to skip long sections, primarily the interminably long speeches that plague the whole book. Overwhelmingly it seemed to me an historical oddity, maybe a reaction to a period - the 50s - when it may have seemed that the US was standing alone in a world drifting towards socialism. And many of the images in the book seem to belong to the 19th century - all that emphasis on steel and railways and heroic owner-managers in a Rockefeller mode (did she understand the concept of the joint-stock company?). I don't think the book has much to say to us now at all. In fact at a simple level most of Rand's philosophy seems be in line with mainstream behaviour in the western world. For example, we take it for granted now that successful entrepreneurs are admired. Should she claim some credit for that? I doubt it.
There's something rather alarming about the sexual undercurrents in the book too. Dagne always seems to be 'submitting' and the men seem to have 'violent' impulses .... was Ayn a rape fantasist?
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galt
Feb 16, 2004, 11:20 PM
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Who is John Galt? I was...
I was the man who believed I was an end to myself. I was the man who cared about nothing other then my own life. I was the man who ended up alone and miserable...
I have read Atlas 4 times and am probably the most qualified person on this site to talk about Ayn Rand and Objectivism. I was a member of my school's Objectivist club for 2 years & I've read every piece of fiction & non-fiction she's ever written. I was John Galt.
Who am I now? I am the man who has discovered there is so much more to life then myself. I am the man who fought for everything I thought was important just to realize the people around me were the only things worth fighting for. I am now the man who truly belongs on earth.
No doubt I'll be harassed for my contradictory statements & I'll gladly explain myself if need arises, but until then I won't bore you with my life's story.
Don't ask who John Galt is, figure out who you are... then live your life accordingly. A is most defiantly A!
(Note: I still think it's a great book, but I'm not there anymore. And let's face it, Ragnar was so much cooler then Galt anyway.)
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brutusofwyde
Feb 16, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: A is most defiantly A!
eh?
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timstich
Feb 17, 2004, 12:38 PM
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In reply to: Atlas Shrugged was 500 pages TOO LONG. Who is John Galt? Who the f--- cares! Freakin drivel DMT
Two great pieces of information to know. I trust your judgement on this.
BY THE POWER OF CASTLE GREYSKULL, I BANISH THIS THREAD TO COMMUNITY!
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noodlearms
Feb 17, 2004, 10:12 PM
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In reply to: Atlas Shrugged is a great book, if you're 16 and looking for an oversimplified view of life that you can use to justify strutting around, being a jerk to people, and feeling superior I see it as quite the opposite - at 16, one is still expecting that the world owes him something. Mommy and Daddy have provided everything, often at the expense of their own happiness, and there's no reason to believe the world operates differently.
I see your point. My statement was overly general. My point is that Rand's "worldview" is incredibly simplistic, and that those most susceptible to such a no-shades-of-gray viewpoint are often teenagers. Probably not the teenagers you're talking about though. Probably more misfits and loner types. It's such a seductive shortcut -- just buy this philosophy wholesale, and you have the answer to EVERYTHING.
Like galt, I speak from personal experience.
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okinawatricam
Feb 17, 2004, 10:53 PM
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A phylosophy that teaches hard work, self respect, and dedication to what you believe is a shortcut. Interesting.
How many people take up full time climbing has their passion and abondon what the world expect of them complety for what they love.
When you read her bokk Athen, you realize that she doesn't preach "do it for money," she preaches do what you really want to do.
Of course, like anything, to much of anything is not good either. But has a guideline to life, she makes sense.
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roninthorne
Feb 17, 2004, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: I read a poll a few years ago that said Atlas Shrugged was the second most influencial book in peoples lives. It came in right behind the Bible.
You had to have read this poll in the Ayn Rand Fanzine, because I don't know ten people (outside of this forum discussion) who have even cracked Atlas shrugged. If it was a huge influence on people, it was likely because it influenced them to avoid Rand's work, and long, generally pontificating books... say those in which the main character can deliver a freaking 80-page monologue/dissertation.... and no one listening gets bored, walks out, or yawns.
If all these ubermen exist in AR's world, how did they let things get so f***ed up in the first place? Maybe chasing some wench like Dagny, who, in the end, is no more than a Cosmowhore... looks shiny and chic on the surface, throws her legs to Jesus just as fast as a drunken truckstop waitress, swaps boyfriends the way some folks change mouthwash.
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robgordon
Feb 17, 2004, 11:52 PM
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I think climbers like it because to climb is to work against an objective hazard, and toward an objective goal.
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scottcody
Feb 18, 2004, 1:13 AM
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In reply to: My spelling AND grammer is bad, but I choose it to be that way, I expect nothing in return for my words, and if you don't like what I say then you may retrun to your own life and not join me in mine.
You could have saved us the disertation, this says it all.
"My spelling AND grammer is bad, but I choose it to be that way,"... ok so you want the rest of us to work harder and spend our time, time that could be spent doing things that make our lives better, decifering your post.
"and if you don't like what I say then you may retrun to your own life and not join me in mine"... thanks for the permission. I'm glad you assumed that I would need it to continue with my life.
And for this non-sense
In reply to: I was the man who believed I was an end to myself. I was the man who cared about nothing other then my own life. I was the man who ended up alone and miserable...
A=A is statement about seeing the connections between our actions and our life, and most importantly, accepting responsibility for those outcomes.
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okinawatricam
Feb 18, 2004, 3:14 AM
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It seems to me that the movers and shakers in her book were quite social. Afterall they gathered and settle in the same valley.
I guess they are like climbers, we seems to collect in the same valleys and don't care what other think of it.
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noodlearms
Feb 18, 2004, 6:43 AM
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In reply to: A phylosophy that teaches hard work, self respect, and dedication to what you believe is a shortcut. Interesting.
Yes, it teaches that. Unfortunately it also teaches a lot of other stuff that is utter rubbish.
It oversimplifies. A young person can read her stuff and come away feeling he/she has the answer to everything. When in fact real life is so much more complex and takes so much more work to figure out, if you ever do.
I'm not sure there's much point in arguing about this with you. Ayn Rand fans generally hate to hear this kind of thing. They tend to be the type who like things simple even when things just aren't simple.
In reply to: But has a guideline to life, she makes sense.
She has a guideline for life, just not life as a human being on this planet. Her philosophy is internally consistent, but inconsistent with much of what it means to be a real person.
Maybe when we develop AI, Objectivism will work for the machines.
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noodlearms
Feb 18, 2004, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: It seems to me that the movers and shakers in her book were quite social. Afterall they gathered and settle in the same valley.
Yes, but only with those who were worthy, using an ABSURDLY NARROW set of criteria.
I seem to remember from Rand's biography that she had very few friends at the end of her life... only a few pathetic ones who never disagreed with her.
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noodlearms
Feb 18, 2004, 7:05 AM
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Omigod... while I was browsing this topic here at RC.com, the "google ads" on the left brought up this:
http://www.aynrandsingles.com/
An Ayn Rand dating service!
I can't imagine....
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okinawatricam
Feb 18, 2004, 9:14 AM
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Actually, I am not a big fan of hers. To clarify where I stand. Her basic premise is good and her philophy is fine, but real people in the real world don't act the way she claims.
I order for the book to be worth reading and her Phi;losophy explained, she needed to show an extreme.
Unfortunately, most people who criticize her, critisize her on the basis that money is what drives her character.
Two things are tru about me:
I do things for me and noone else. (If it helps others great, often it does)
I am very selfish. (When I climb, noone but me gets anything out of it) When I put up routes, they are for my enjoyment. If others enjoy them to, good, if not tuff.)
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noodlearms
Feb 18, 2004, 11:04 AM
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In reply to: I order for the book to be worth reading and her Phi;losophy explained, she needed to show an extreme.
Yeah... as long as one doesn't try to swallow it whole, I agree there is much good to be taken from her philosophy.
I don't think Rand herself was just exaggerating for effect though. I think she believed every literal word of it.
In reply to: Unfortunately, most people who criticize her, critisize her on the basis that money is what drives her character.
Yes that is unfair. She was definitely deeper than that.
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mazzystr
Feb 18, 2004, 4:56 PM
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I've read Atlas Shrugged a good 5times...as well as Fountain Head and We the living...
Objectivism is a way of life. Its holding your head high and doing the best job, not "YOUR" best because "YOUR" best will always be out done by someone elses best. This applies to working at McDonalds or being CEO of the world largest energy company *cough* Enron *cough*. It applies to the way you deal with your family. Are you a good husband? Do you do things that "will rock the boat" of your marriage? Are you a good Father? Are you raising your kids to explore the world or to be afraid of the world? Its realizing that everything external to your mind reflects on yourself...
Personally, it is my religion. People ask if I beleive in God. I say Yes. God is that voice inside me that dictates morality. Some people call it intuition... Others call it conscience.
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galt
Feb 18, 2004, 5:31 PM
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Actually Roninthorne, Justincoyle is right. According to a study done, Atlas Shrugged is the most influential book in the world second only to the Bible. Pretty cool considering the book has only been around 60 some odd years. (Note: A book doesn't have to be read by the masses in order to be influential.)
Okinawatricam, Rand's philosophy DOES NOT teach "Figure out who you are and live your life accordingly." It teaches "Live your life how you want so long as it doesn't conflict with my philosophy." Her books are full of examples of characters that fit into this category, but we'll use Atlas since that's what being discussed here... Eddie, a good guy who loves his life, loves Dagny, and who is obviously a producer. What happens to him at the end? (I case anyone is reading I won't spoil it for you.) What's the point? Be a producer who and live for yourself (not for Dagny) or you'll end up like Eddie. Need more examples in Atlas? Look at Cheryl and the Wet Nurse...
So I say again. Stop asking 'Who is John Galt?' and figure out who you are and live your life accordingly.
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unabonger
Feb 18, 2004, 7:18 PM
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Her philosophy is characteristic of all philosophies: They present an ideal to strive for. That the leaders of all our "churches" (objectivism included) fail personally to live up to those standards doesn't negate the value of all the ideas of a philosophy.
Above all, she advocated truth--to oneself and to others; and adherence to values. One of the values she promotes was productive effort--work hard. She said that no man's need was a de facto claim on another man's effort; but she never said you shouldn't share. She tended to overlook the power of emotional attachment; that hurt her and many around her.
As for the literary quality, well, if you like epic storytelling with a philosophical bent, Les Miserable by Hugo is far better. It is similar in that it is the struggle of a man fighting against great odds to stay true to his values, but even in translation the writing is far more appealing, the story more coherent, and the characters more believable.
Oh, iamwallress; the book probably isn't to your taste, but judging a book by the tape version is like judging a perfume by licking the sample page. Many a fine book has been ruined on tape. At any rate, getting through that much material on tape is somehow admirable in a punishingly martyrish sort of way.
To the Original Poster: The book appeals to the individualistic among us--it presents the idea that man is heroic and capable of heroic acts, and can through reason and toil, reshape the world as he wants it. Those are qualities common in climbers, I think.
To dingus: Read faster.
The SelfishBonger
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