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thomascrown
Feb 17, 2004, 12:59 AM
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So, I have been denying this dit works, but it is catching my eye more and more everyday. Are there any climbers out there that are on this eating regimine of high protein, high fat, low carb.? It seems to be good for people that do not exercise a lot, but I have always thought people that work out a lot (some climbers) need their carbs. I am trying to train for a Spring Break trip and want to know if this should be part of my training. Thanks.
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captianstatic
Feb 17, 2004, 1:05 AM
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Low carb diet is pure crap if you exercise. Your body's main source of energy is carbs. You'll only gain the weight back anyway (once the diet is over). This low carb fad will die soon.
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kingman
Feb 17, 2004, 1:11 AM
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Personally I think Atkins is evil. A freind of mine, a PR director in a doctors adovcacy group here in DC, recently told me that his group had uncovered the information that atkins had had a number of heart attacks before his death. Think about it man, high fat is bad. the only time high protein is really good is when you are doing a lot of weight trainning it helps build bulk, though not nessecarily strength. Bulk, however, without strength, is an enemy of climbers, it lowers your strenght to weight ratio. In addition, you need carbs for endurance. Just eat well.
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moabbeth
Feb 17, 2004, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: Bulk, however, without strength, is an enemy of climbers, it lowers your strenght to weight ratio. In addition, you need carbs for endurance. Just eat well.
Yep. Just eating right and exercising is always the best way to maintain a healthy weight.
And sorry but ANY diet where fried BACON is okay, that's gotta get me wondering. I mean a piece of bread is totally verbotten....yet bacon is okay. Yeah, what-evuh :roll: .
I love car-rich food. As long as you're active and you eat healthy overall, carbs are good.
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rvega
Feb 17, 2004, 1:39 AM
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I'm on the SNIKTA diet. All carbs, all the time! Forget silly things like protein and fat they are for obese people.
Now doesn't that stupid! So why doesn't no carbs sound stupid? :oops:
Completely eliminating a food from your diet just screams imbalance, especially if you an active person like most us climbers are. If you want to reduce carbs fine...that will most likley reduce overall calorie imput and that usually good. Think...a well balence meal of: high protein, low fat, moderate carbs, and lots and lots of fruits and veggies...it just makes logical sense.
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revdeuno
Feb 17, 2004, 1:40 AM
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All these fad diets are crap, and the low carb diet fad is even worse because it poses serious health risks. Even if you dont exercise a lot, other parts in your body depend on carbs for energy such as your heart. Of corse a lot of people do eat more carbohydrates than they should, but this is because people do not eat balanced meals.
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reprieve
Feb 17, 2004, 1:44 AM
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Wow, I'd like to reply and completely denounce the atkins crap and all that...but it's already been said! Way to go guys, it's nice to see that climbers are sensible and don't buy in to such nonsense.
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climbingnurse
Feb 17, 2004, 1:47 AM
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I thought Howard might be behind that! :-)
Before I dispense any advice, a disclaimer: I'm not actually a nurse, yet... (15 months to go.)
Anyway, there has never been any hard evidence that Atkins diets and the like are anything but bad for you. All the "evidence" in support of them has been put out by people who stand to make money from it.
Now, a few facts:
-The USDA diet is all based on tons of peer-reviewed research and it comes from an-unbiased (or as close to that as possible) source. They recommend that you follow the food pyramid... So do I.
-When following the food pyramid you should be aware of three things that are not immediately obvious: 1. When they say grains, they mean whole grains. The bottom of the food pyramid is not an excuse to stuff your face w/ wonder bread. 2. When choosing oils, olive oil is your best bet. 3. When choosing from the "meat group" that also includes nuts, and its better to eat Tuna (if you're not worried about mercury) than a fatty steak
-Eating a diet excessively high in protein has MANY potential bad side effects (which are increased for an active person)
-High protein intake forces your liver and kidneys to work at about the same rate as an alcoholic. So, if you are already a climber, I mean an alcoholic...
-If you take a basic physiology course, it will be incredibly obvious to you that your body was quite specifically designed to get energy from carbs and fat. Doing otherwise is asking for trouble.
-Dr. Atkins died from a heart problem, and he was clinically obese at the time of his death. The Atkins people have come up with all sorts of explanations for this, but they can't change those two facts.
Any questions?
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 17, 2004, 2:34 AM
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Nutrition training is just as important as physical training.
I have been on the Zone diet after seeing two climbers, who were on the zone, they seemed to have no energy crashing, always feeling generally well.
I am huge skeptic of any diet that says this is a miracle cure of all your problems. The zone diet said, that it well help you with energy crashes, and put you in the zone. It did not sell itself as a diet but as a way of eating differently from the typical USDA food pyramid. And sorry but the USDA isn’t a clean organization, it is very biased.
I tried the zone diet and I am a believer to the fullest. I do not have energy crashes, I feel light and good after all my meals, I have dropped 10 lbs and I am around 3% body fat. I was also less sore from my weekday training
If you have high metabolism you are pretty much excluded, you guys do not have to worry as much about what you eat.
To everyone who believes that any diet out there is bad, look at some of the strongest climbers who train, they also diet.
-Malcolm Smith, Ben Moon, Jerry Moffat, Leo Houlding, Neil Gresham and many more.
Dieting is a way of increasing your full potential
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thomascrown
Feb 17, 2004, 2:41 AM
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You all have made the point that I have been following. It's just hard sometimes to not fall into those things when so many people are glorifying such diets. I have been not believing it for about a year now (my uuncle is on it and has lost over 100 lbs) and i guess i should keep brushing it off. i mean, how can I not take the advice of an "almost nurse"? 8)
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kingman
Feb 17, 2004, 2:52 AM
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In reply to: I thought Howard might be behind that! :-)
that he was, atkins diet is threatening to sue his group. But, boy does he hate Atkins.
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reddaisies
Feb 17, 2004, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: Nutrition training is just as important as physical training. I have been on the Zone diet after seeing two climbers, who were on the zone, they seemed to have no energy crashing, always feeling generally well. I am huge skeptic of any diet that says this is a miracle cure of all your problems. The zone diet said, that it well help you with energy crashes, and put you in the zone. It did not sell itself as a diet but as a way of eating differently from the typical USDA food pyramid. And sorry but the USDA isn’t a clean organization, it is very biased. I tried the zone diet and I am a believer to the fullest. I do not have energy crashes, I feel light and good after all my meals, I have dropped 10 lbs and I am around 3% body fat. I was also less sore from my weekday training If you have high metabolism you are pretty much excluded, you guys do not have to worry as much about what you eat. To everyone who believes that any diet out there is bad, look at some of the strongest climbers who train, they also diet. -Malcolm Smith, Ben Moon, Jerry Moffat, Leo Houlding, Neil Gresham and many more. Dieting is a way of increasing your full potential
what is the zone diet exactly? all i know, is that it's a prescribed meal plan that involves a balance of protein, and carbs. what am i missing?
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moabbeth
Feb 17, 2004, 3:58 AM
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In reply to: High protein intake forces your liver and kidneys to work at about the same rate as an alcoholic. So, if you are already a climber, I mean an alcoholic...
Thank goodness I'm a healthy eating vegetarian who happens to like booze....if I ate a lot of meat I'd probably have kidney failure :lol: :lol: .
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curt
Feb 17, 2004, 4:06 AM
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In reply to: I thought Howard might be behind that! :-) Before I dispense any advice, a disclaimer: I'm not actually a nurse, yet... (15 months to go.) Anyway, there has never been any hard evidence that Atkins diets and the like are anything but bad for you. All the "evidence" in support of them has been put out by people who stand to make money from it. Now, a few facts: -The USDA diet is all based on tons of peer-reviewed research and it comes from an-unbiased (or as close to that as possible) source. They recommend that you follow the food pyramid... So do I. -When following the food pyramid you should be aware of three things that are not immediately obvious: 1. When they say grains, they mean whole grains. The bottom of the food pyramid is not an excuse to stuff your face w/ wonder bread. 2. When choosing oils, olive oil is your best bet. 3. When choosing from the "meat group" that also includes nuts, and its better to eat Tuna (if you're not worried about mercury) than a fatty steak -Eating a diet excessively high in protein has MANY potential bad side effects (which are increased for an active person) -High protein intake forces your liver and kidneys to work at about the same rate as an alcoholic. So, if you are already a climber, I mean an alcoholic... -If you take a basic physiology course, it will be incredibly obvious to you that your body was quite specifically designed to get energy from carbs and fat. Doing otherwise is asking for trouble. -Dr. Atkins died from a heart problem, and he was clinically obese at the time of his death. The Atkins people have come up with all sorts of explanations for this, but they can't change those two facts. Any questions?
climbingnurse,
Thank you for providing convincing proof in your post regarding Atkins. Proof that you are an idiot, that is. :roll:
Curt
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 17, 2004, 6:01 AM
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zone diet
this is the basic guideline, there are more rules, no red meat, no refined sugars or flours
40% Carbs
30% Protein
30% Fats
In the end, the zone diet is a smarter way of eating than the traditional american way
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amanda
Feb 17, 2004, 7:06 AM
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I pretty much agree with what everyone has to say. Low carb diets aren't the best. It's just a biological loophole to loosing weight. Anyway, it's such a radical diet change that you'd have to begin many months in advance if you were dieting for a specific purpose, like a trip, because you'd have to wean yourself back onto carbs and even *gasp* sugars in order to have performance energy for the climb(s). It's tempting to do steak and bacon, but stick with less, better food and more hard running and climbing. Have a good trip.
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amanda
Feb 17, 2004, 7:07 AM
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I pretty much agree with what everyone has to say. Low carb diets aren't the best. It's just a biological loophole to loosing weight. Anyway, it's such a radical diet change that you'd have to begin many months in advance if you were dieting for a specific purpose, like a trip, because you'd have to wean yourself back onto carbs and even *gasp* sugars in order to have performance energy for the climb(s). It's tempting to do steak and bacon, but stick with less, better food and more hard running and climbing. Have a good trip.
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gat
Feb 17, 2004, 5:55 PM
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Atkins diet, this thread will go on for days so I might as well kill some time while I am here...
I have discussed this (and done a bit of reading) many times. Here are my observations:
This diet stirs up serious emotion for two reasons:
1. It flys in the face of generally accepted nutrition principles, so those who do it "the right" way attack the Atkins diet.
2. Supporters of the diet have lost sometimes huge amts of weight, and as a result they will defend the diet to their death.
Research.
Research that supports the Atkins Diet seems to be limited to research done by the Atkins Foundation or labs that were paid by the Atkins Foundation.
Research that doesn't support Atkins is general research that has been done about excessive fat/protien intake. None of these studies can be directly applied to the Atkins diet over a long period of time. Currently, there are independent studies being performed that are attempting to determine the long term effects of the Atkins Diet. Currently, no one can claim to know for sure.
Weight Loss studies.
Atkins dieters have consistently lost more weight in 6 weeks than people on restricted calorie diets. This is a fact. However, it is important to recognize the reasons behind this: When the body is robbed of carbohydrate intake it will use the glycogen that is stored in the muscle. The Atkins diet robs the body of carbohydrates (especially in the first phase of the diet), so the body uses the glycogen from the muscle tissue. Each molecule of glycogen that is stored in the muscle is paired w/ two molecules of water. When the body utilizes that glycogen the water is released (urine). This is a major factor in the large amounts of initial weight loss while on the Atkins diet - it's excreted as water. This also explains why people who break the diet in it's early stages gain weight back so quickly - their muscle stores that glycogen and retains the water.
Usefulness of the Atkins Diet for active individuals.
Individuals on a rigorous training program must avoid the Atkins Diet. The reason for this is stated above - The Atkins Diet depletes muscle glycogen stores, this is not acceptable for anyone in a demanding training program. Walking 30 minutes a day is not rigorous, neither is the way some people spend their time at the crag (in terms of the level of energy output).
My worthless opinion:
When I am asked (I have some background in diet/exercise) I advise against the Atkins and all other "diets". This is the "diet" advice I give: learn to recognize proper portion size, don't eat until you are full and eat 3 snacks a day that are 3 different kinds of fruits or vegetables. Once you have that in place, you can revisit your nutritional goals to determine if anything else needs attention.
Edited because I fell prey to the RC.com syndrome of not actually anwering the original posters question :lol: : No Thomas, IMHO the Atkins Diet should not be part of your training.
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climbingnurse
Feb 17, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: climbingnurse, Thank you for providing convincing proof in your post regarding Atkins. Proof that you are an idiot, that is. Curt
Wow Curt! You must be so smart that you don't need to justify bashing someone... You just tell people they are stupid and they bow before you and admonish themselves.
I just checked your profile... You're old enough to know better.
But seriously, what's the problem w/ my post? Did you want me to go into details about the metabolic processes that are affected. I can do that, but... Well, most people's eyes glaze over when you bring up things like ketosis and the Kreb's Cycle and the like.
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leaverbiner
Feb 17, 2004, 6:37 PM
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This thread has managed to include more B.S. and be further from accurate than any other thread I have read on this site . . . unbeleivebale. People spouting off about things thay have no experience with . . . how Atkins is evil when they probably don't know the first thing about the diet and the lifestyle. People suck down what the media says and never bother to get off their lazy a$$es to understand what they are talking about.
At least Climbingnurse gave some relevant information and some basis for her opinion - but remember it is just that, and opinion! You think doctors, much less nurses are always right? I have a sorry dose of reality for you!
But - climbingnurse lost all credibility with me when she made her statements about Dr. Atkins himself. Your statements about his health are wrong!! They have been proven wrong, and it only shows that you too are a media puppet! Come on NURSE - you should know that any medical condition can be the result of numerous different causes - so now you are the expert and are going to say that because Atkins had heart issues - which by the way lead to his weight issues - it is a result of the Atkins diet/lifestyle? Come on, you have to know better than to make that statement - if you don't you have no grounds being a medical professional!!
The Akins diet/lifestyle has been abused by a lazy sector of the population. People that want to lose wieght but still eat food that taste good to them - that's unfortunate - because they aren't making a committment to themselves or to making themselves healthier. Atkins can work for a variety of people. It can have incredible results, but it can also have consequences. It is not a diet that requires no effort and it is not one that does not require vigilence to ensure that your body gets what it needs.
It is also possible for atkins to work for active lifestyles, it simply requires additional vigilence . . . I don't profess that atkins is a cure all or even right for most people. . . but I've seen it work and unfortunately seen consequences for those that don't know what they are doing. If youare looking for a lifestyle choice to be healthier - the best bet is still maintaining a healthy balanced diet with regular exercise. as JT512 put it long ago - healthy balanced diet where your caloric intake is less than your expenditure is the only sure way to lose weight and maintain your health.
BTW - All of the comments above referring to Atkins as a no-carb diet or a diet that is going to starve your body of carbs/energy - you don't have a clue!! Not a clue at all! Do your homework before you go spouting off . . . YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND ATKINS!
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bumblie
Feb 17, 2004, 6:52 PM
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I did Atkins and lost most of the weight I wanted. For that, I'm very happy. However, there are a number of side-effects that no one talks about.
First off - I had serious digestion problems during the two week induction phase and for a few weeks afterwards. I wont elaborate, except to say I now have diverticulitis. What's that? Look it up.
The other biggie was energy level. After the first week, I went for a bike ride. I had absolutely no energy. No reserves. Usually I take a short break halfway through my ride. This time I took about eight. It wasn't like being out of shape or being spent after a good workout. I just didn't have any energy. Back home I just laid on the couch and felt ill. Not tired... but ill. It took six hours to recouperate(sp?).
The problem of no energy persisted until I significantly upped my carb intake.
I couldn't find any news stories on my problems, but from talking to friends, they are fairly common.
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climbingnurse
Feb 17, 2004, 7:13 PM
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Yo LeaverBiner... Ummm... I'm a dude, dude. But anyway...
The conditions surrounding Dr. Atkins' death are certainly a matter of contention. No one will ever know the full story because his family would not allow an autopsy (for which I certainly don't blame them).
But... The guy was something like 100 lbs (I don't have exact figures here with me) over weight. The Atkins people say that was a result of edema caused by his heart problems. Now, 100 lbs is a helluva lotta edema. I find it very hard to believe that there isn't more to the story. (Again, we'll never know for sure.)
(For the uninitiated, they are basically saying that Dr. Atkins had 100 lbs of fluid floating around in his body. Imagine being bloated w/ 100 lbs of water... Not likely.)
And I stand by my original statement. At the time of his death Dr. Atkins was clinically obese and had heart problems. That may not have anything to do with his diet, but... 9 times out of 10, obesity and heart problems have an awful lot to do with diet.
If you don't believe that a diet high in cholesterol can lead to heart problems, then... Well, do some reading. The American Heart Association would be a good place to start.
Bumblie, I'm sorry to hear about your intestine. That sucks! I hope you are seeing someone about treatment. Unfortunately, now they are probably going to monkey w/ your diet even further. :( Good luck!
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imnotclever
Feb 17, 2004, 7:16 PM
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I think that if you're on a diet that has a name, you're on the wrong diet.
Here is an interesting link about carbs from Harvard School of Public Health.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html
Cheers.
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maculated
Feb 17, 2004, 7:36 PM
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I've done the Atkins diet at the insistence of my doctor (every doctor I've ever been to has told me I need to lose weight. I don't really get it, but whatever). I followed the prescriptions religiously for seven days before I got off of it. I lost 6 pounds in those 7 days. I concluded that I would rather be a fatty than ever feel like that again.
In reply to: However, there are a number of side-effects that no one talks about. First off - I had serious digestion problems during the two week induction phase and for a few weeks afterwards. I wont elaborate, except to say I now have diverticulitis. What's that? Look it up. The other biggie was energy level. After the first week, I went for a bike ride. I had absolutely no energy. No reserves. Usually I take a short break halfway through my ride. This time I took about eight. It wasn't like being out of shape or being spent after a good workout. I just didn't have any energy. Back home I just laid on the couch and felt ill. Not tired... but ill. It took six hours to recouperate(sp?).
Yup, been there, done that. No diverticulitis (thank God), but the energy thing was bad stuff. Three days into it, aside from being sick of meat, I couldn't move. I got home from work and fell asleep for the night. By the fifth day I was spinning and nauseous.
They say you go through a withdrawl from carbs and sugars or something and it gets better, but if eating like that does that to you . . . I'll continue on my sugar/carb diet.
The thing about Atkins is that the INCEPTION period of the diet is bad news. It's only supposed to go on for two weeks, then you go into a scaled-back version, and then a life-supporting version you follow for life. It's not all about eating meat all the time. All those Atkins-approved products are not for the inception period that I was on. I was DYING for something other than meat, so I went to buy something and all of them had more than the 5 daily carbs a day prescribed. (5 carbs is like a stalk of broccoli, no kidding).
All this Atkins approved stuff pisses me off to a degree, but, at the same time, if you are not an already healthy eater, it is one way to force you to stop eatin' corn dogs and Wonderbread.
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gnubbs
Feb 17, 2004, 7:51 PM
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I hate to get into this topic, but I can't seem to help myself.
Just wanted to comment on the health effects of this diet. Basically, it goes against all independent research that has been done on nutrition. Go take a look at the American Dietetic Association and thier position papers on diet. Go read about the American Cancer Society's recommendations for a healthy diet (includes 5 servings of fruits and veges a day -- there goes atikins). Go look at the American Heart Association pages on diet.
Basically, all of the research out there says that fruits and veges are key to a healthy diet. And lots of them. Atkins works -- you will lose weight. That doesn't mean that is healthy. You can't possibly claim that eating a slice of bacon is healthier than eating an apple.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the low carb diets were originally developed to help the morbidly obese. If you are too obese to excercise, sure, a radical diet might be a good idea. If you are just a climber than needs to shed a few pounds, read on.
Here is my diet recommendation -- don't be gross. Don't eat the same gross foods everyday. Don't sit around on the couch all the time. Eat a wide variety of foods and excercise. In my diet, you can even have a philly cheese steak every now and then. If you want to lose weight, excercise off more calories than you eat. It is as simple as that. No diet will give you long term results unless you also excercise.
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