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harihari
Feb 28, 2004, 3:04 AM
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What do all you trads out there think about tie-in knots?
i was taught the figure 8, but now i've switched to the overhand (sometimes called "european death knot"). its main advantage is that when you whip on it, it doesn't tighten up impossibly, like the fig. 8 does. i am told by people who are guides (OK, I can hear the laughter already) that it's as safe as the fig 8. it still freaks some people out, though.
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johnnord
Feb 28, 2004, 3:25 AM
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I use the bowline with the "Yosemite finish." (See Freedom of the Hills) I can't visualized an overhand knot tie in. Can you explain?
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buttets
Feb 28, 2004, 3:53 AM
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Rappelling??? Use the overhand knot.
Leading - use the figure eight.
Top ropping - use a bowline.
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harihari
Feb 28, 2004, 4:08 AM
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>I use the bowline with the "Yosemite finish." (See Freedom of the Hills) I >can't visualized an overhand knot tie in. Can you explain?
uhh, OK... make an overhand knot. put the end through your harness. now, use the end of the rope and follow back through the knot....but follow through the OPPOSITE end that you would with a figure-8. (i.e. you follow the rope through the knot from the side that's away from your harness.
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johnnord
Feb 28, 2004, 4:27 AM
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Harihari: Very interesting. I think it would be called a "rewoven overhand." I could not find any reference in standard sources for this use of the knot, but when I tied it and considered the forces, I can't see a problem. (I still find the bowline with the Yosemite finish faster and easier to tie. Reweaving is a hassel. It also unties well after being weighted.) Does anyone know of any testing of this use of the "rewoven overhand?"
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johnnord
Feb 28, 2004, 4:28 AM
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Harihari: Very interesting. I think it would be called a "rewoven overhand." I could not find any reference in standard sources for this use of the knot, but when I tied it and considered the forces, I can't see a problem. (I still find the bowline with the Yosemite finish faster and easier to tie. Reweaving is a hassel. It also unties well after being weighted.) Does anyone know of any testing of this use of the "rewoven overhand?"
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dirtineye
Feb 28, 2004, 4:29 AM
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Who taught you that?
The way you describe tying it sounds very odd, you are pulling on the loop in a strange way.
I tied this knot and I would not use it for anything remotely critical, much less a tie in knot. It scares me.
If you want a knot that is very strong, safe and easy to untie, learn the figure 9.
But hey maybe this is the tie in of the future. Got any sources for tests on this knot? It is kind of clever.
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jimdavis
Feb 28, 2004, 4:33 AM
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Use a Fig-8 for just about everything guys. Your point of an Overhand being easier to untie...mean's it's not as secure. The Fig-8 is the safest.
That said, I have used a Bowline with a yosemite finish for an overhanging sport route that I knew I'd whip on.
Never use an overhand knot guys, seriouslly.
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johnnord
Feb 28, 2004, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: Never use an overhand knot guys, seriouslly.
Why not?
I'm sitting here with the knot, looking at it, and I don't see the problem. In a tie-in configuration it does not seem to have the rollover potential. When weighted it seems to cinch up tighter, which is good (although it also seems to make it difficulty to untie when weighted, which reenforces my thought that it might, in fact be an acceptable knot.)
So, I repeat my earlier question: is there any testing?
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cfnubbler
Feb 28, 2004, 9:20 PM
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And the problem with the Fig.8 would be???? If the only issue is getting it loose when you've whipped (which has never seemed like much of an issue to me) use the Fig.9.
Personally for trad climbing, I like the fact that the Fig.8 cinches down tight in a fall. Your knot can absorb a chunk of the energy generated in a fall by cinching down.
-Nubbler
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grog
Feb 29, 2004, 12:07 AM
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http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
Numbers dont tell the whole story either, I was just always taught to use the fig 8. A while ago I asked a buddy of mine who's a bit of a knot-freak about joining rappel lines with the overhand and he honestly thought I was joking.
There's also strength decrease to consider too. Even though a knot might not slip, different knots will decrease the ropes strength, (fig. 8 is one of the strongest at around 70-80% of the original strength, and I cant remember the rest).
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johnnord
Feb 29, 2004, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html Numbers dont tell the whole story either, I was just always taught to use the fig 8. A while ago I asked a buddy of mine who's a bit of a knot-freak about joining rappel lines with the overhand and he honestly thought I was joking. There's also strength decrease to consider too. Even though a knot might not slip, different knots will decrease the ropes strength, (fig. 8 is one of the strongest at around 70-80% of the original strength, and I cant remember the rest).
The two are related. The test result numbers (breaking weight) can also be expressed as a percentage of rope strenth. In terms of strenth (or % of decrease) the strongest is the double fishermans, followed by the figure eight, followed by the overhand. All three are acceptably "strong" for the application. The overhand simply has a number of advantages, such as speed, ease of untying, and likelihood of hanging up. When I first saw an overhand used (by Jim Bridwell, who knows a bit about knots and ropes), I was skeptical.
Then I checked the numbers and have used it ever since (unless I climbing with someone who is freaked by it.)
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ropeburn
Feb 29, 2004, 1:27 AM
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I was under the impression that one of the reasons most people used a figure eight was that after a long fall, the eight would be easier to untie than an overhand, i.e. the overhand would cinch up tighter...
Nice troll by the way...
:D
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vegastradguy
Feb 29, 2004, 2:39 AM
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Overhand Knot takes a rope to 60-65% of its strength.
Fig-8 takes a rope to 70-75% of the ropes strength.
Gee, so I guess the Fig-8 would be 10% stronger. Just put a yosemite finish on your fig-8's, and that's going to be just as easy to untie as your overhand.
good lord, between this and your simul-climbing techniques, i'm suprised you're still alive!
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ammon
Feb 29, 2004, 2:42 AM
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I agree with johnnord. Sounds like an overhand follow-through.
I WOULDN'T USE IT TO TIE IN!!!
Cheers, Ammon
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dirtineye
Mar 1, 2004, 5:35 AM
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What I really don't like about it is the way it puts a sharp bend on the rope where the loops and belay line exit the knot.
This is not an overhand followthrough, that is clear if you tie the knot. THe original poster gave a fine description of how to tie the knot, if you follow his directions you will see that it is not an overhand follow through, because if it were both 'legs' of the loop would exit the knot opposite the belay line.
All an overhand followthorugh is, is the same thing as an overhand tied on the bight, but put through your tie in points. If yo utie an overhand on the bight and then an overhand followthrough, you won't be able to tell them apart.
THis knot is clearly not the same thing as an overhand on a bight.
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a_scender
Mar 1, 2004, 6:44 AM
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Another thing to keep in mind with the figure eight is redundancy. It is easy to check and even without being dressed perfectly of backed up it will most likely hold. If anything is wrong with an overhend tie in, what are the chances of it staying tied in when wieghted? That is my only complaint about the bowline with yosemite finish. It is a knot that can be easy to mess up, and when not tied correctly it could certainly fail.
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climberpunk
Mar 1, 2004, 4:52 PM
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simply put, it depends on the route.
multi-pitch, (sport, trad, or mixed), i use the fig. 8. It doesnt come undone, its really easy to check, wont roll, etc. Its a bit of a bitch to get undone, but if im only untying at the end of a relatively long day of cilmbing, then its not so much of an issue. on this long of a route, having a good, clean, knot is really worth a lot.
top-roping: I use either the double bowline w/ yosemite finish, or the fig. 8. Although ive never seen it used, i can definately see using the rewoven overhand here- easy to tie/untie under low fall forces, and neatness isnt really important, im not gonna be dealing with any other systems [anchors, etc] while tied in.
one pitch: If its one pitch, and im planning on falling a lot, ill use the double-bowline with yosemite finish. Im gonna be untying fairly soon, but weighting it a whole lot, so i really want a knot that is easy to untie: i.e. the bowline.
BTW: i hope that when everyone here is saying they use the bowline, they really mean the double bowline- just 2 wraps instead of one [the 'hole' the 'rabbit' comes in/out of is deeper]
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 1, 2004, 5:29 PM
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I have always used the Follow Thru Figure 8 on my knots, to me it is no issue to untie. My life is the issue and i usually back up my not on the tail end with a single half hitch for me it i like that follow up as it puts the tail facing down to my body. Also most times we are doing where i have climbed single pitch to set in a top rope, thus my belayer can help me untie if i take a good fall to tighten my figure 8 knot.
My buddies and i called it belayer courtesy. Anyways thats all i have to say.
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johnnywithah
Mar 3, 2004, 1:10 PM
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I heard of a guy hitting the deck some two years ago when his bowline came undone. If the problem with the figure of 8 is that it gets too tight after a fall the SOLUTION to that is threading the rope twice through the harness loops before threading back through the knot. The friction of this extra loop unloads the stress on the knot and makes it ahelluva lot easier and quicker to untie!
What is it the SEALS say about back up?
One is none
two is one!
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dirtineye
Mar 3, 2004, 2:08 PM
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In reply to: I heard of a guy hitting the deck some two years ago when his bowline came undone. If the problem with the figure of 8 is that it gets too tight after a fall the SOLUTION to that is threading the rope twice through the harness loops before threading back through the knot. The friction of this extra loop unloads the stress on the knot and makes it ahelluva lot easier and quicker to untie! What is it the SEALS say about back up? One is none two is one!
That's an interesting idea.
The bigg4est problem with a figure 8 getting hard to untie in my experience is when someone with a fuzzy older rope takes a lot of whippers on one.
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marcel
Mar 3, 2004, 2:30 PM
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Figure 8 all the way. If you don't want it to tighten too tight wrap the rope through your harness twice before tying the knot.
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overlord
Mar 3, 2004, 2:51 PM
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figure 8 or double bowline
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j_ung
Mar 3, 2004, 3:13 PM
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I just tie in with 22 overhand knots. For those of you who know anything about climbing, that's 11 granny knots. I'm not sure what the test numbers are on this configuration. Anyone?
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johnnord
Mar 5, 2004, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: What I really don't like about it is the way it puts a sharp bend on the rope where the loops and belay line exit the knot. This is not an overhand followthrough, that is clear if you tie the knot. THe original poster gave a fine description of how to tie the knot, if you follow his directions you will see that it is not an overhand follow through, because if it were both 'legs' of the loop would exit the knot opposite the belay line. All an overhand followthorugh is, is the same thing as an overhand tied on the bight, but put through your tie in points. If yo utie an overhand on the bight and then an overhand followthrough, you won't be able to tell them apart. THis knot is clearly not the same thing as an overhand on a bight.
my bad! you are right, it is not a rethread. I totaly miss read the description. It still might be an ok knot, but it does put a more radical bend in the rope. I'd still like to see some test data.
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