|
tahoe_rock_master
Mar 2, 2004, 1:26 AM
Post #26 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 25, 2004
Posts: 172
|
At my gym in Reno you have to use Gri-Gri's for all the top ropes, and they are supplied for you. If you are going to lead you can use an ATC or Trango B-52, or a device of your choice. To climb you must get checked out by the staff. To lead and lead balley you have to lead an easy climb and stop a fall. A staff member watches for mistakes.
|
|
|
|
|
terss
Mar 2, 2004, 5:44 AM
Post #27 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 31, 2002
Posts: 45
|
My home-town gym requires everyone to at least become a certified gri-gri user (tested and certified by the staff). There are also a good number of free ropes with which you can use an ATC, but you have to get certified for that as well. I think it's a great system and keeps the incompetence at a minimal level.
|
|
|
|
|
wilsonm4
Mar 2, 2004, 2:57 PM
Post #28 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2004
Posts: 1
|
I have to say while GriGris may be superior safety-wise i much prefer ATC
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Mar 2, 2004, 3:16 PM
Post #29 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
I always carry both. My wife likes to belay me with the Gri-Gri and I prefer the ATC. The local wall lets us use either. I think most important is the ability of the belayer with the piece of equipment they are most familiar (noobs). Regardless of the device most of us wouldn't be around today if we didn't have competent partners.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 2, 2004, 3:29 PM
Post #30 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I prefer an ATC, and even will push a Gri-Gri down the rope to allow me to use my ATC at a gym where Gri-Gris are on the ropes.
|
|
|
|
|
lstockett
Mar 2, 2004, 3:57 PM
Post #31 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 208
|
We have two local gyms. One requires ATCs. They won't let you belay until you pass a 'Belay Test'. They do actually fail people. I've seen it happen twice.
I've never been to the other gym, but I've heard they only allow GriGris.
I don't know of any serious accidents at either gym.
|
|
|
|
|
luke
Mar 2, 2004, 5:11 PM
Post #32 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2002
Posts: 57
|
The gyms I have gone to have all allowed any device. The most serious injury I have heard of at any gym I have climber at in the past 10 years or so was caused by a belayer with a grigri. Pulling the handle fully back with no hand on the brake line allowed the climber to free fall, deck and break his spine. Can you say paraplegia?
I have an ATC and a grigri. Both have their place. The ATC is on my harness and the grigri is with a girl I know in sweden. I lent it to her and forgot to get it back. I liked it but havent missed it.
Bottom line. If your belayer doesnt know what they are doing then it doesnt matter what device they use. Belay devices dont kill people, people kill (or maim) people.
|
|
|
|
|
rockhound71
Mar 2, 2004, 6:02 PM
Post #33 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2002
Posts: 225
|
The gym that I climb at has GriGri's for TR, and your choice if you are lead belay checked. Personally, I prefer using an ATC, and I have never witnesses or heard of anyone getting dropped by their belayer using an ATC. I've seen and heard about people getting dropped using a GriGri though. A friend of mine has been dropped a couple times on a GriGri by his girlfriend. Also, I've seen people take their brake hand off while using a GriGri. Bad habit! In my opinion, GriGri's make some people lazy or inattentive.
Casey
|
|
|
|
|
sixter
Mar 2, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #34 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2003
Posts: 262
|
In reply to: Wow, this very very well could be Vertical Hold vs. Solid Rock. Are you a San Diegan? I definitely have not seen any trend (except for here in San Diego) in the relationship of a gym's choice of belay devices and its tendency to cater to "n00bs." But as people have already pointed out, gyms are BUSINESSES. The alarming trend that I *have* seen is that the gyms that cater to the birthday party crowd often do NOT HAVE MANDATORY BELAY TESTS. That *scares* me very much. Meg
Yup, you pegged it, San Diegan. Born and rasied. I just seen more scarry things when I go to Solid Rock, and was only belay tested at my first trip to there because I insisted on it, as I had never used a grigri. I was impressed with the belay test at Vertical Hold when my friend brought his GF with us. They didn't let her belay until they were confident that she had it down. My first experiance with Vertical Hold was about 10 years ago, and they are just as strict now as they were then. Only change is they teach the hands down belay instead of the hands up that I learned and still use.
I understand that belay device is more insurance/safety issue and not only because they cater to n00bs, and it is a business, it just seems Vertical Hold is more a "climbers" gym, and Solid Rock the place to go for birthday parties and kiddies reguardless of belay device.
|
|
|
|
|
indigo_nite
Mar 4, 2004, 11:07 PM
Post #35 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2002
Posts: 365
|
I climb mostly at Beach City Rocks. I didn't have time to read all the posts so hope this is not a duplicate.
Since the new ownership, I believe they do a safety check to see that you can belay but they don't require that you use a specific type of belay device. ATC or gri-gri. I haven't seen people using older type devices there.
Also for safety now they require that you wear visible ID for the level of belay you've been checked off to do. Level I for toprope and Level 2 for lead. This is the first place that I've seen this but I heard about some people with dicey belay practices so I guess it can be for liability. HTH (hope that helps).
|
|
|
|
|
moss1956
Mar 4, 2004, 11:30 PM
Post #36 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 6, 2002
Posts: 213
|
The gym I climb at supplies the ATC, attached to a steel biner.
I have two partners who use an ATC-XP, one uses a Gri-Gri, one uses this box shaped cylinder that is self locking, and one uses one of those eights.
The rest of my regular partners use ATCs. (Do I climb too much?)
No one has dropped me. Only occasionally do I get short roped.
Its all good.
moss
|
|
|
|
|
dredsovrn
Mar 4, 2004, 11:34 PM
Post #37 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1226
|
Not that I am aware of. The only thing they won't let me use is an 8. Bastards.
|
|
|
|
|
a_scender
Mar 4, 2004, 11:53 PM
Post #38 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 25, 2004
Posts: 88
|
A grigri is great for sport dawgin' and gym climbing if you know how to use one. It is by no means foolproof when used by a non-climber or someone without a clue. It took me a while before I was comfortable belaying someone with it. But then for all types of trad climbing, you've gotta go with the atc type. I use a B-52 which is like a Reverso and can belay off the anchor, oh yeah this was only asking about gyms, sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
ctclimbz
Mar 5, 2004, 1:11 AM
Post #39 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 137
|
In reply to: My home gym is all about ATC, which I personally perfer however it has resulted in at least one accident. I was climbing with my friend who was/is a competent belayer and she was ancored into the floor. I slapped at the top hold of a 30ft route and peeled off. She was pulled forward and tripped over the daisy chain anchoring her to the floor. She instinctivly moved her hands out of lock position to stop herself from falling and by the time she realized what had happened I had already hit the floor after about 25ft of free fall. We were both shaken but the gymnastics pads on the ground did their job and I walked away with nothing more serious than a rugburn on my right arm.
I had a quite similar occurrence happen, except I was not anchored into a daisy. However, it was quite crowded that night, and my partner was on lead. I was attentively belaying him, but was forced to walk to my left to avoid a belayer facing the opposite wall from backing into me. As I did so, with my head up watching my leader, he fell, and the combination of my movement left,and the jerk of his fall pulled me sharply forward and off balance. A large, stiff crash pad used only in the lead cave was right in front of me, and I tripped over it. Both hands came off the ATC to stop the fall and, before I knew it, my climber was shooting downwards, and the rope was whistling through my belay device. I instinctively fell on the rope, and used my weight to slow it, just as the leader came towards the floor the rope came snug, the leader slowed, his feet hit the ground, knees bent, stopped and he stood up unharmed and on his feet. He was completely unhurt, but I was so shaken I couldn't keep climbing. I carry both a GriGri and an ATC for their various benefits, but have switched to only a GriGri when sport leading in the gym. While I have been dropped on a GriGri myself, when used correctly, they help prevent against just this kind of ocurrence.
|
|
|
|
|
dood
Mar 5, 2004, 1:25 AM
Post #40 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 3, 2004
Posts: 93
|
[quote="ctclimbz"][quote="somethingaboutclimbing"]My home gym is all about ATC, which I personally perfer however it has resulted in at least one accident.
I was climbing with my friend who was/is a competent belayer and she was ancored into the floor. I slapped at the top hold of a 30ft route and peeled off. She was pulled forward and tripped over the daisy chain anchoring her to the floor. She instinctivly moved her hands out of lock position to stop herself from falling and by the time she realized what had happened I had already hit the floor after about 25ft of free fall. We were both shaken but the gymnastics pads on the ground did their job and I walked away with nothing more serious than a rugburn on my right arm.
I had a quite similar occurrence happen, except I was not anchored into a daisy. However, it was quite crowded that night, and my partner was on lead. I was attentively belaying him, but was forced to walk to my left to avoid a belayer facing the opposite wall from backing into me. As I did so, with my head up watching my leader, he fell, and the combination of my movement left,and the jerk of his fall pulled me sharply forward and off balance. A large, stiff crash pad used only in the lead cave was right in front of me, and I tripped over it. Both hands came off the ATC to stop the fall and, before I knew it, my climber was shooting downwards, and the rope was whistling through my belay device. I instinctively fell on the rope, and used my weight to slow it, just as the leader came towards the floor the rope came snug, the leader slowed, his feet hit the ground, knees bent, stopped and he stood up unharmed and on his feet. He was completely unhurt, but I was so shaken I couldn't keep climbing. I carry both a GriGri and an ATC for their various benefits, but have switched to only a GriGri when sport leading in the gym. While I have been dropped on a GriGri myself, when used correctly, they help prevent against just this kind of ocurrence.
Kids, kids, kids...
NEVER take your brake hand off the rope!!!
Couple of years ago, there was a huge rock fall in Yosemite. The leader was OK, the belayer was buried under tons of rock. When they dug him out, his brake hand was STILL on the rope!
Now THAT is a climber!
Stay in the gym until you learn to belay. It is a dangerous world out there, filled with hazards worse than falling into a PAD!
|
|
|
|
|
ctclimbz
Mar 5, 2004, 1:41 AM
Post #41 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 137
|
In reply to: Kids, kids, kids... NEVER take your brake hand off the rope!!! Couple of years ago, there was a huge rock fall in Yosemite. The leader was OK, the belayer was buried under tons of rock. When they dug him out, his brake hand was STILL on the rope! Now THAT is a climber! Actually, Now THAT is a Belayer! Stay in the gym until you learn to belay. It is a dangerous world out there, filled with hazards worse than falling into a PAD!
That is all well and good to say, but what if YOU were the climber, and circumstances brought about a situation where your belayer's hands do unaviodably slip off the lead rope, what then? Personally, I want a GriGri there as backup.
|
|
|
|
|
chanceboarder
Mar 5, 2004, 2:43 AM
Post #42 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1348
|
i climb at rockreation in west-la and they only let people use ATC's, i was told that its cuz of insurance reasons cuz they can see from across the gym if the rope is threaded through an ATC correctly but cuz the rope is enclosed in a grigri they can't see if the belayer has it threaded the correct way.
|
|
|
|
|
valeberga
Mar 5, 2004, 2:47 AM
Post #43 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 434
|
In reply to: My gym is gay... they wont let me use my figure 8 as a belay device... what is this world coming to?
Yep, even when I told them I was going to throw in a catch runner.
I just got a blank stare when I asked if I could use a Munter Hitch.
|
|
|
|
|
valeberga
Mar 5, 2004, 2:51 AM
Post #44 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 434
|
Does anybody know what the belay devices at Rocks and Ropes in Tucson are called? They autolock on large-diameter ropes but have no moving parts.
|
|
|
|
|
meataxe
Mar 5, 2004, 3:55 AM
Post #46 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1162
|
The only person I've ever seen dropped was on a Grigri. He was dropped about 20' onto talus while being lowered, but miraculously escaped major injury.
I personally like an ATC for ease-of-use, but I use a Grigri while at the gym.
|
|
|
|
|
bethel
Mar 5, 2004, 4:17 AM
Post #47 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2003
Posts: 29
|
the gym I work at, a university gym, has only grigris. Our gym caters to new people experiencing climbing, and most people who take the orientation clinic do not return. We have a fair base of regulars, and also a fair base of dedicated climbers. We generally recognize that grigris breed terrible belay technique, especially amongst the people who don't care to return - once they realize it's autolocking, they don't really give a shi*t about how to operate it in the safest manner. That's why the employees are constantly breathing down their necks. We don't have an actual belay test, but during clinics it's clearly really important that we make sure everyone is doing it correctly. But the point is... grigris = laziness. I'm starting to prefer ATCs in most cases, but in this environment, grigris make more sense.... The gravity of liability is only just beginning to dawn on me after managing all semester.
As to dumb near miss accidents - we get all kinds. People neglect to lock carabiners, load grigris backwards, only clip through one of the holes (so the grigri is open), tie incorrect knots, you name it. No one has ever gotten injured through sincere human error at our gym, thanks to our staff.
|
|
|
|
|
litleclimberchick
Mar 6, 2004, 3:21 AM
Post #48 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 1254
|
we use grigris at the gym i go to, and if people come in don't know how to belay they either have to take lessons or boulder.
|
|
|
|
|
climbhp
Mar 6, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #49 of 99
(6912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 46
|
My gym only uses Gri-Gri's, but if you come in only to lead climb, they will lend you a rope but you must supply your own belaying equipment.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Mar 6, 2004, 9:00 PM
Post #50 of 99
(7107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
Both gyms in Las Vegas REQUIRE grigri's for toproping. if they catch you using anything but, you risk getting kicked out. its for insurance purposes.
Powerhouse also requires Grigri's to be used for lead belaying. The other gym allows ATC's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
