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kilgymrats
Mar 5, 2004, 2:00 AM
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A buddy and me are wanting to put up a new FA out at one of your local crags, but we can't figure something out. If the route has been top roped before, would it still be a FA if we led the route? We've never TR'd it..but the route has chalk all the way up it...so it has been climbed before. I know it's never been lead..because there is absolutely no place for any trad pro. So if we did lead it from the ground up...would it be and FA?
I want to lead it and bolt it from the ground up..NO CHEATING :)
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brianthew
Mar 5, 2004, 2:07 AM
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It would be a "first lead." Many guidebooks show both the first free ascent and the first lead. Though, when it comes to bolted climbs, just the first free ascent is credited.
Just make sure the area you're climbing at is accepting of those proposed bolts, and that you get someone that knows what they're doing puts those bolts in. Can't stress either of those points enough.
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greenpartyclimber
Mar 5, 2004, 2:53 AM
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Sure it would be a first ascent, but don't do it ground up if you can rap bolt it. That is of course just my opinion but to me if its not a mixed route, and putting bolts up isn't opposed to the local ethic then why not rap bolt it well. Frequently routes that have been bolted on lead have poorly placed bolts that are either maligned or replaced so why not do it the best you can the first time around.
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couloir
Mar 5, 2004, 3:16 AM
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You should find out who first climbed it. They may not have bolted it for ethical reasons. And it still wouldn't be a first ascent, but ffa.
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kilgymrats
Mar 5, 2004, 3:47 AM
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Well I don't plan on throwing any bolts on it yet. I agree...I want to find out more to make sure that the ares is cool with new bolts. I don't want to hurt access that's for sure!
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jonf
Mar 5, 2004, 5:44 AM
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I think just the fact that there is not place for good gear does not mean it has ONLY been TRed. Most likely it has only been TRed, but if it had been soloed I would count that as the first ascent, because it would be like a lead of the climb...just extremely run out, hahah.
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deleted
Deleted
Mar 5, 2004, 6:30 AM
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if it's really important to you to do a first ascent, why not do a real first ascent...you know, go and find some cool untouched rock, find a line, and climb it. god, there's so many of them in the us that you shouldn't have any problem getting your first ascent.
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raindog
Mar 5, 2004, 8:46 AM
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If it's already a TR, why bolt it? Seems wastelful to me.
-Jeff
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overlord
Mar 5, 2004, 9:43 AM
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in my book it would be a first free ascent.
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cjstudent
Mar 5, 2004, 1:00 PM
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In reply to: If it's already a TR, why bolt it? Seems wastelful to me. -Jeff
Leading even sport is better than doing it TR.
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bouldering-bumm
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Mar 7, 2004, 12:24 AM
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It would be a first lead ascent, then a first toprope ascent...so I would count yours as an first ascent
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grayhghost
Mar 7, 2004, 12:58 AM
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you guys need to check upon your definitions. First=no one has done it before you. Ascent=a progression upward. First ascent=the first person to climb the route, any style. Once you bring style into the equation then you get muddled down in sylistic consideration. Did Peter Croft's free solo ascent of "Astroman" constitute the first ascent? It was much better style the the orignal ascent (aid). But the fist person to do the moves gets the credit.
As a side note, just solo the thing. The world does not need any more sport climbs.
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berserk
Mar 7, 2004, 2:05 AM
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There are more than one person who needs to get their definitions in order here!!!!!!!!
To claim a first free ascent, you have to climb it from ground up. Top-roping shouldn't even be considered.
I know several guides list FTRA (first top-rope ascent). Fair enough if that's the only way it has ever been climbed, but as soon as someone 'climbs' it, that is, from 'ground-up' (the only true way) just disregard the FTRA. It's silly anyway.
So there are three ways of listing a first ascent.
1) FA - First ascent (includes some aid, but still ground-up and non of
that top-rope stuff)
2) FFA - First Free Ascent (done as a lead with pro and rope)
3) FSA - First Solo Ascent (no rope/no pro ascent)
So, if neither 2) nor 3) has been done for the climb, you can free it and claim the first free ascent. If however it has previously been aided, it is common curtisy to list both the FA and the FFA/FSA.
If anyone is trying to tell you otherwise, disregard them. There are REALLY no such thing as a FTRA. Just forget about it. Bare in mind however, the ethics of the crag in which you are climbing. There might be a very good reason for why this climb has seen no FFA. If there is a no-bolt zone due to close proximity of naturally protected lines, leave it unless you're game on soloing it. There is nothing more discusting and an eye-sore than BR's next to cracks or other perfectly good natural pro spots.
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mdude
Mar 7, 2004, 2:28 AM
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DEFINITELY NOT A fa.
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cadaverchris
Mar 7, 2004, 3:20 AM
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Since it has been top roped before, you definitely should not place bolts on it!!!!
It is an established climb, with an established style. You can lead it if you want, but you should not alter the protection on it in any way!!!!!!
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dirtineye
Mar 7, 2004, 3:29 AM
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God not this again.
Top rope is a free climbing method. Many first ascents are TR. IF the first time anyone climbs up a line happens to be on top rope, how can it be anything but a first ascent?
First leads are another thing. People seem to care a lot more about first leads. Great. Some people do not consider an FA 'done' til they have led it, even if they have "top roped it into submission" first, to quote a fairly well known in the south climber.
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vegastradguy
Mar 7, 2004, 3:29 AM
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if its an established toprope, then leave it as is.
second, no, it would not be a first ascent. it would be a first ascent on lead, providing no one has soloed it...which may be unlikely depending on the place you're climbing and the grade of the climb. if its anything under 5.11, i would suspect there's been a solo or two, esp. if theres chalk.
the FTRA would still get first mention in the guidebook, then the first lead after that.
and, anyone who says a TR doesnt count as an ascent should go read their climbing definitions again.
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berserk
Mar 7, 2004, 4:44 AM
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Quote:
___________________________________________________________
Since it has been top roped before, you definitely should not place bolts on it!!!!
___________________________________________________________
Seriously, top-roping counts for nothing!!!!!! Top-roping doesn't really constitute a 'style of ascent'. Never has, never will. Of course, people will still top-rope, and I do it too, but a route has NOT been freed by this activity.
So, if a climb has been top-roped only, regard it as a unclimbed route and free it if you want. If bolting is acceptable in the area, this is fine too (even though I'm generally advocating non-bolting).
I'll repeat myself again. TOP-ROPING counts for nothing in terms of FA's. NOTHING!!!!
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dirtineye
Mar 7, 2004, 6:31 AM
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Well, at least you picked a good board name hehehe.
I'll agree that most people do not count TR for much, I know I don't.
But still, if you climb on TR without hanging or pulling on the rope, how can that not be a free ascent?
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andypro
Mar 7, 2004, 7:08 AM
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Poor Poor Poor dead horse. Everyone wants to hit it with the biggest stick they can.
Why bolt it? If it can be toproped, i'ts probably less than 30m high (unless belay was doen from the top).
Take a que from the gritstone guys and girls over there in the UK. Beat it to death on TR then solo it. Now those guys have balls if you ask me. If you really wanna place pro, duct tape some hooks onto the face and have at it. May as well be soloing it anyways in that instance. But I'll tell ya, if you can do the FDTHPA (First duct taped hook protected ascent) on lead with no pre placed "gear", you have some bragging rights. Now THAT would make an interesting story and at least give the poor poor horse some new life.
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berserk
Mar 7, 2004, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
But still, if you climb on TR without hanging or pulling on the rope, how can that not be a free ascent?
_____________________________________________________________
I'll try, but it somewhat seems like trying to explain the Theory of Relativity to 2nd graders :?
Anyways, the fact of the matter is a top-rope can never be a free ascent. It simply lies in the fact that you have overhead protection. I'm not sure if you've ever tried to lead a climb, but if you try and tell me that leading it from ground up felt just like when you did it on top-rope, no-one will believe you. Because it isn't the same....not by a long-shot.
A great part of climbing is the mental issues.....the fares you have to overcome when leading. If you fall, you may DIE!!! On top-rope you will not have this pressure (unless your belayer is an absolute imbesile and leave the rope running free whilst talking to his girlfriend on the cell phone).
So please, just forget about calling top-roping anything but top-roping. Many wouldn't even call it rockclimbing and get shivers down their spine when hearing about this blasphemic activity. I'm not one to look down on top-roping as I do it myself, but on the same token, I wouldn't even dream about calling my top-rope ascents anything than just that. There is no free climbing in having the rope attached on the top of the climb. You cannot onsight, flash or anything along those lines when top-roping. Your simply a passanger who's eliminated one of the hardest aspects in ascending any climb, namely the mental one. If you cannot see this, I'll simply have to rest my case and stop trying to.......well, I leave that one.
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marks
Mar 7, 2004, 6:18 PM
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a top rope asscent does not count for anything.
a lot of projects have been t/roped,but the first ascent is when its led or soloed.
i shunted a route last week which has yet not been led,i shall lead it this week.on the shunt it was o.k about .12b/c but the crux is the last moves above a 15 meter fall with a ledge near the bottom of the fall.
im going to spain on thursday so not sure wether to risk it or not.couls be a good f.a or a week in hospital rather than spain.
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sharpender
Mar 7, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: Your simply a passanger who's eliminated one of the hardest aspects in ascending any climb, namely the mental one.
lmao. Passenger? So when I use my hands and feet to climb up a route and clean the pro on the pitch my partner led, I'm riding in a car?.. a train?... a plane?.... a boat?.... a donkey cart?.... a chair lift?.... that's it. A ski lift. lmao. Chill out man. It's climbing, free climbing. Your analogy is like saying that climbing sandstone or limestone is not really rockclimbing.
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sharpender
Mar 7, 2004, 7:49 PM
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In reply to: don't do it ground up if you can rap bolt it. That is of course just my opinion but to me if its not a mixed route, and putting bolts up isn't opposed to the local ethic then why not rap bolt it well. Frequently routes that have been bolted on lead have poorly placed bolts that are either maligned or replaced so why not do it the best you can the first time around.
So this is the sorry state we have come to with gym grown climbers. Why not do it the best you can the first time around. That would be, as a real climber to lead it ground up, placing pro as you go.... The tradition that has been done by climbers for at least thirty years now on climbs into the 5.12 range. If you don't have the skill to lead a climb up to 5.12 and place bolts on the lead don't steal someone else's first ascent. Go get better at climbing and learn how to do it. AND do respect all other ethics of the local area.
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piedradura
Mar 7, 2004, 9:15 PM
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Hum... so I cant call mi sellf a Rockclimber till a led. Every body looks down on top rop. :( :lol:
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