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rockscaler2
Mar 10, 2004, 7:11 AM
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I made the orignal posting on this and it was POSITIVELY the Hart Route at the first belay ledge. I moved to Az around January and met loca lclimber who is a route setter at a local gym and he said a friend fell off the same route the last week of last year. Every cliber I meet down here says careful of the bees at Camelback and then they mention the Crumbling rock which is liek mud wit hrocks in it. again im really sorry for this guys family...its a shame the papers make him out to be some crazy college hiker......
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climbsomething
Mar 10, 2004, 7:23 AM
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In reply to: Hillary, that quote is exactly what is making this a bit confusing. I think the authors source (FD Captain?) gave the writer the wrong information, and it has, in turn, been misreported. The Monk is definitely NOT the Hart Route, though the two are in the same area. All eye witness accounts that I've heard, including those who ZimBob talked to, report this happened at the top of the first pitch on the Hart Route. It's going to be important for the climbing community to determine exactly where this happened since both routes get a lot of traffic, especially from new climbers. Letting everyone know the location of the hive is an important piece of info we need to pass along so that others can factor this into their decision making process. It's my guess that the FD relayed the information incorrectly and it is consequently being misreported. Can someone (Erica?) get the FD to confirm this? Ed
Perhaps a climber in the know, like an eyewitness especially, should write a letter to the editor. No guarantee the paper would run it, but it IS pertinant info to AZ climbers. I know how popular that little area is, especially for beginners.
Also, and I do NOT mean this as a judgment call at ALL, but were these guys novices? Knowing how to react to stinging insects, how to retreat, is critical information for all climbers, especially beginners, to pick up. I think something could be learned form these sad events.
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tyler
Mar 10, 2004, 7:25 PM
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The Hart Route, without a doubt, is NOT on The Monk. Look in Phoenix Rock II or Marty Karabin's guide...
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steelmonkey
Mar 10, 2004, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: The Hart Route, without a doubt, is NOT on The Monk. Look in Phoenix Rock II or Marty Karabin's guide...
Hart Route is 100m to the southwest (left side of the Gargoyle Wall). I took the cover shot of Phoenix Rock II while at the first belay on Hard Times, which is down and right of the Hart Route.
Anyone see this in the news? Obviously hikers, but lots of accidents this week...
2 teens critically hurt in South Mountain fall
Associated Press
Mar. 10, 2004 06:30 AM
Two teenagers were in critical condition after falling up to 100 feet while hiking on Phoenix's South Mountain.
The 17-year-old boy and 16-year-old girl were airlifted to St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center early Wednesday after a two-hour rescue operation.
The teens had set out for a hike just before 5 p.m. When they didn't come home, the boy's father dialed 911 and went to look for them.
He located them several hours later, clinging to a tree. They had fallen 80 to 100 feet. The tree possibly saved their lives, keeping them from another 200-foot drop.
Rescuers scoured South Mountain for some time before finally finding the trio about 11 p.m. It then took another two hours to get the teens out.
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charlierock
Mar 10, 2004, 8:33 PM
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Dear Climbing Community, My name is Jeff and I am the climber who survived this incident. First, I want to thank everyone for their sympathies. I want to try to clear up what happened to let all the climbers in the area know what and where to be wary of. While I have been climbing for over 10 years I live in Michigan, which is void of outdoor areas, and only get out doors about once a year. This was Keith's first time climbing outside, that is why we were doing an easy route like the Heart route listed at 5.2 in the Phoenix area climbers Guide which we were using and did not make any mention of Bees.
We had reached the belay at the top of the third pitch and were having a great time when the bees hit, just a few at first and then suddenly they swarmed us. As we were trying to decide to go up or down I looked up and saw what I believe to be the nest about ten feet above us and to the left. Seeing them above us I decided we were best to go down. By this time they were hitting us very hard and I became difficult to see or even breathe, as they would fly into my mouth every time I opened it to take a breath. All this was compounded by the fact that I AM allergic to bees, however, as stated in other entries some people are only allergic to certain varieties of bees, and I am one of those people. Being from Michigan and having no prior exposure to the bees of the area, let alone the Africanized bees I feared for my life and knew we had to get down as fast as possible.
At the time the bees hit we were in the middle of changing over gear to do the last pitch and had the anchor in and were clipped to it but the rope lie in a pile to be back fed for the next pitch. I sent Keith down to the last ledge as I lowered him hand over hand to it. When he has safely reached it I slapped the Rope into the anchor thinking it would at least be a failsafe as we descended as I did not feel I had time or the ability to set up a rappel with the bees now stinging my eyes.
We downclimbed to about halfway between the first and second pitch when we ran out of rope, either form being at the end or from the rope tangling as we descended, I do not know. At this point we were only twenty feet above the belay ledge and only seventy feet or so total up a 5.2 route. Feeling we were in serious danger from the bees and on easy climbing I told Keith that we would have to untie and down climb the rest of the way and he agreed. We untied and I told Keith to go and I would be right behind him. He only made it about ten feet before he fell, he hit the belay ledge and rolled/bounced off and disappeared out of my sight.
I down climbed the rest or the way and began blindly running around trying to get the bees off and find Keith at the same time. I never found him because shortly after I hit the ground witnesses grabbed me and drug me up the hill toward the monk to escape the bees. I pointed as best I could in the direction I thought Keith lay and half the group ran that way the other half got me out of the area.
I hope this information clears up any questions people may have as to where the nest was and how to avoid it. I want to deeply thank everyone who helped us that day and let them know how much I appreciate their efforts. Thank you.
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sonso45
Mar 10, 2004, 9:23 PM
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My condolences Jeff. I climb the Hart route often and a few years ago had to avoid it due to the presence of a hive in the crack left of the last pitch's bolts. That was prior to the africanized bee's arrival. I am sure you did the best you could for both of you. M
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climbsomething
Mar 10, 2004, 9:33 PM
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Wow. I am so sorry, Jeff. Again, I was not trying to diss anybody's abilities at ALL- in a situation like this one, even with an emergency backup plan, the best laid plans can go out the window. I just want everybody to be careful out there. You must have a lot going on right now (understatement of the year) and I hope you find peace.
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zimbob
Mar 10, 2004, 10:04 PM
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Jeff-
Thank you so very much for posting the details of what i'm sure is an event that you are still dealing with. I can only imagine how difficult it must be, and rest assured that, given the popularity of the hart route, this post and subsequent publicity will warn "beginners" and "experts" alike about the dangers of bees on even a 5.2 route.
Two weeks ago, we climbed the hart route with a "beginning trad leader" One of the "experienced" members free soloed almost the entire route. the bees were lethargic and ignored us completely. Three weeks ago i climbed the "hart route variation" with a trad leader new to camelback mud who ran out about 40-50 ft because of poor rock. Again the bees were lethargic and ignored us. Needless to say, on either of these trips, we would have clearly been in grave danger had the bees swarmed.
i do know how hard it is to deal with family loss especially when you are not at home, and I'm sure that i am not the only person who feels this way - if you or the deceased's family can use any help or want any support from the phx climbing community, just let us know and i'm sure many will rise to the occasion.
I will also take this opportunity to suggest that the forum admin forward your statement to the Tribune which incorrectly reported the location and events leading to the accident, and Jeb, the editor of Accidents in NA Mountaineering to avoid having same publishing errors repeated.
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epic_ed
Mar 10, 2004, 10:15 PM
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Jeff, a tremendous thank you for checking in to post a first hand account to clear up any possible misunderstanding about where and how this happened. I can't imagine having to cope with the situation you're describing, and the ordeal you must still be working through in its aftermath. My condolences to you, Keith's family, and all of your friends.
Our climbing community in AZ has seen it's fair share of tragedies the past few years, and we have a habit and tendancy of pulling together to help eachother through the hard times. Please feel free to reach out in whatever way you can to any of us.
Ed
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climberchic
Mar 10, 2004, 10:21 PM
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Incredible. Thanks for posting Jeff. I can't imagine what you must be going through right now.
Whenever tragedy strikes the climbing community, we all struggle to make sense of what happened, or learn from it so that if we ever got into a similar situation, we might be prepared.
Hearing your story, I wonder if, even with rescue training for a similar situation, you could have done anything other than what occured. I can't imagine myself reacting any differently.
To others: I come across bees all the time. How could you possibly avoid a similar situation. What else could you possibly do to avoid a tragedy like this?
I can't think of one thing and that scares me. :(
Jeff~ If I can offer anything other than my deepest sympathies, please let me, or any of us here, know.
~Erica
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aulwes
Mar 10, 2004, 10:27 PM
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My condolences.
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the_antoon
Mar 10, 2004, 11:30 PM
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Jeff, I don't even know what to say to you...I'm so sorry. Thank you for posting what happened on the site for all of us...Once again, my condolences to you, and all of Keith's friends and family.
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curt
Mar 11, 2004, 12:58 AM
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My condolences to you Jeff, and to all of Keith's friends and family. Things like this are always tragic--and somehow they hit just a little harder when they happen so close to home.
Curt
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timstich
Mar 11, 2004, 1:33 AM
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Jeff,
Very sorry to hear your story about the bee attack. A good friend of mine got into a similar situation caving in Mexico with some others. A nest of Africanized bees attacked him while he was on rope. Fortunately, he was able to get down safely and run away to escape.
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goofyc
Mar 11, 2004, 2:29 AM
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Jeff,
I want you to know that my prayers have been with you and Keith's family in this time of crisis. By looking at your profile I see you joined just to clear the air. I believe you did a wonderful job on all the calls made during your attack, and even though I don't know you, I want you to know I am proud of you, and I will keep you and Keith's family in my prayers and hope someday you and his family will find peace. Peggy
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rockscaler2
Mar 11, 2004, 2:35 AM
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Jeff,
Im so sorry for you and your friend. I watched this whole thing unfold, very tragic. Dont give up man and keep climbing, dont throw away something you love. I hope I didnt offend you in any way by posting this on here I just thought everyone should know and be aware of bees on a route, especially at Camelback mountain. Its a shame people have to learn from events like this. Again I apologize if i offended you with my posting. Very sorry....keep your head up man were all here for ya.
Joey
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climbingaz
Mar 11, 2004, 2:42 AM
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Jeff - thank you so much for taking the time to post the actual events of that tragic day...during what must be such a horrible time for you. Being a local AZ climber and someone who has done the Harte Route countless times (most recently with my father), hearing what happened has really hit close to home. I couldn't help but think what I would have done in the situation. But after hearing your first-hand account, I don't think there was anything else you could have done given the circumstances. I commend you for having the courage to make the difficult decisions you made that day. Our thoughts are with you and your friend's family.
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fear
Mar 11, 2004, 2:55 AM
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Sounds like 4 or 5 gallons of gasoline and a match are needed pronto on that route. Followed the next day with 4 or 5 containers of hornet spray.... That's how we teach the nasty ones in CT. Nothing Africanized here yet though.....
Those poor guys..... What a way to go...
-Fear
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lou
Mar 11, 2004, 3:37 AM
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Jeff... my name is Lou Rogalle.... my thoughts and prayers are with you... I am a firefighter paramedic... I was there when the accident happened.. and went back today.. and retrieved your ropes and gear (bealy device..draws...) I found the hive.. yes it is about 10 feet left and 5 feet up from the third belay... it is in a oval pothole.. about 18inches wide ... my e-mail is lourogalle@cox.net mail me and let me know and I will meet you and give you your gear... tonight is Wednesday... the 10th...
again.. my condolences....
lou....
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sonso45
Mar 11, 2004, 3:50 AM
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I spoke with a fellow climber and ff this evening. He went up at sunset when the bees are less active due to the cold. He retrieved the rope and gear left behind at the last belay. He also said the hive is a large one in a pod just left and ten feet above those anchors. Until further notice, the area should be left alone. The hive will be removed. M
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bighigaz
Mar 11, 2004, 4:19 AM
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Jeff, thankyou for helping everyone on the sight to understand the events and causes of this tradgedy. Truly you repsonded as calmly and correctly as anyone could in such a horrible situation. I can only hope that your efforts to share the details of this event so soon after they ocurred may help to protect the lives of future climbers in the Camelback area, and anywhere else. Please send my condolescents to Keiths family.
-James.
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confuzzed2
Mar 11, 2004, 2:17 PM
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Jeff, I would like to thank you along with everyone else for sharing your tragic experience. I hope that this information can be helpful to everyone here at RC. My deepest sympathies to you and your friends family. You will be in my prayers.
Chris
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timstich
Mar 11, 2004, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: Sounds like 4 or 5 gallons of gasoline and a match are needed pronto on that route. Followed the next day with 4 or 5 containers of hornet spray.... That's how we teach the nasty ones in CT. Nothing Africanized here yet though..... Those poor guys..... What a way to go... -Fear
There are better and more effective products and techniques to get rid of bees. A climber and exterminator in Austin got rid of a hive in a popular tufa wall at Reimer's Ranch, TX not too long ago. He sealed up the holes the hive was in when he was done. It was the only hive removed. Another down at another less popular wall was left alone.
Common honey bees as you might guess are not the real problem. But the common bees can start a hive and the Africanized bees will displace them. Since they are in no way native to the area, wildlife managers should have no problem with exterminating these rogue hives. And we the public certainly won't complain.
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stick233
Mar 11, 2004, 3:08 PM
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Jeff, it takes great courage to do what you have done. You made a command decision, and it was probably the best decision you could have made given the circumstances. You also had courage to get on this site and give your story. I hope that you can use this as an outlet for coming to terms with the incident and that we can give you any and all the support we can. I want to thank you for dispelling any rumors and hopefully we can all learn from this tragic event. Good luck to you...
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rock_diva
Mar 11, 2004, 3:12 PM
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Jeff,
Thank you for sharing with us... I can only imagine how difficult it must be. Know that my prayers are with you, and Keith's loved ones.
Shelley
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