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mhh35
Mar 21, 2004, 2:29 AM
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information
your way of checking bolts?
My way is to put a biner with a small sling on it
and try to pull it out
If it moves a lot I wouldn't use it
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sbclimber
Mar 21, 2004, 2:31 AM
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If it's nice and shiny and 3/8 inch, (and in good, solid rock) I usually don't feel the need to check.
If it is not, I do just about what you did. (provided I am at a stance, which doesn't seem to be the case too often) (or ever on hard routes)
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rrrADAM
Mar 21, 2004, 2:40 AM
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This is kinda hard when you are climbing say .12s or so.
Try reading this before you accidently ruin some perfectly good bolts:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3153
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curt
Mar 21, 2004, 2:46 AM
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There is absolutely no way to tell if a bolt is good. There are, however, a few visual indicators that a bolt may be bad.
Curt
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jughead
Mar 21, 2004, 2:54 AM
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GO rrrADAM!!!!!!!!!!! LOL DONT PULL ON BOLTS!!!!!
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caughtinside
Mar 22, 2004, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: information your way of checking bolts? My way is to put a biner with a small sling on it and try to pull it out If it moves a lot I wouldn't use it
I understand your concern, but what exactly do you hope to accomplish through your little test?
What do you mean, you won't use it? If there's a bolt there, generally there isn't any other pro available, and if you're sport climbing, you shouldn't be carrying gear to begin with!
I would guess that if you did your little test on a 'bad' bolt nothing would happen.
My advice? Keep your eyes open for spinning hangers and rusty bolts. I've used these things myself, but if they look in really bad condition I'll try to steer clear. I agree with what Curt said as well.
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buttets
Mar 22, 2004, 1:39 AM
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Why are you testing bolts anyway? I would assume that the bolt is there because there are no other options??? By pulling on it I wonder if you're weakening it - just think if everyone came by and gave it a pull?? If it is a spinner, try putting on a wired stopper behind the hanger and cinching it tight - should hold better than the hanger by torquing the bolt stud less?
My advice is to leave it alone, clip it, and continue on - just don't fall to really test it! If it is an old 1/4" bolt or even a 3/8" bolt that looks in bad shape then get with the climbing community to replace it.
You will eventually have to clip a manky bolt if you climb a lot, I have many times - even if it is really bad I always clip it anyway while looking for a place for natural gear!!! :shock:
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scottcody
Mar 22, 2004, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: This is kinda hard when you are climbing say .12s or so.
Yeah well duh!... That is why I always have a sling girthed to my harness, Clip that puppy in, hang out for minute...or two, and if it holds, that bolt is good to go; and having that extra bit of self confidence has helped me send more routes than you could imagine.
:D
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caughtinside
Mar 22, 2004, 1:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is kinda hard when you are climbing say .12s or so. Yeah well duh!... That is why I always have a sling girthed to my harness, Clip that puppy in, hang out for minute...or two, and if it holds, that bolt is good to go; and having that extra bit of self confidence has helped me send more routes than you could imagine. :D
Hey man, if you're hanging on those bolts, you're not exactly 'sending'
:P :P
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scottcody
Mar 22, 2004, 2:18 AM
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sure I am... its called a "safteypoint"
:lol:
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camhead
Mar 22, 2004, 2:34 AM
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this thread has got to be a troll. if not... you all suck.
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casco
Mar 22, 2004, 2:41 AM
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try convincing someone to climb the route first.
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hosh
Mar 22, 2004, 4:38 AM
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There's a climb I've been doing lately (yesterday and today) that has a really manky first bolt. It's rusted out for starters and it's likt a 1/8 inch bolt. I don't know who's the idiot that placed it there in the first place, but I don't like it. Luckily, there's a small crack that takes a nut right near the bolt so I usually skip the bolt and stick a nut in the crack. Some one needs to chop it and place an ew one. If only I knew how to place bolts...
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munckee
Mar 22, 2004, 2:34 PM
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In reply to: and if you're sport climbing, you shouldn't be carrying gear to begin with!
According to who?? I always keep something with me in terms of gear, even on a sport climb. You never know when it might come in handy.
Anecdotal example: Climbing out at enchanted rock (centex) a while back, some guys were on a toughish sport route off to our left. The first guy is leading, gets to the crux about ten feet over his last bolt, and says, "man I wish I had a piece right now, there's a perfect placement". He fell just before clipping the next bolt and took a nice, sliding 30 footer down the slab and over a small overhang. He wasn't a happy camper.
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overlord
Mar 22, 2004, 3:08 PM
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i trust bolts that look good and if the rock around them feels solid.
if i see a bolt that looks doubtfull, i jusk give it a jak before i clip the rope into the qdraw.
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sarcat
Mar 22, 2004, 10:00 PM
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I only don't trust a bolt if it spins. Other than that my life is in it's little metal mind.
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slablizard
Mar 22, 2004, 10:05 PM
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I usually bring an X-Ray machine with me to inspect bolts.
Also a small nuclear device detonated in the vicinance of the crag will do the trick you you have a micro-fractural-sub-atomic-scanner in your pack.
BD sells one..
Other than that I use my ESP powers to see in the future if I would die or not after a fall on that bolt.
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dingus
Mar 22, 2004, 10:07 PM
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I get my partner to lead the pitch!
I assure you, that is the BEST way to test those pesky bolts.
DMT
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caughtinside
Mar 22, 2004, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: and if you're sport climbing, you shouldn't be carrying gear to begin with! According to who?? I always keep something with me in terms of gear, even on a sport climb. You never know when it might come in handy. Anecdotal example: Climbing out at enchanted rock (centex) a while back, some guys were on a toughish sport route off to our left. The first guy is leading, gets to the crux about ten feet over his last bolt, and says, "man I wish I had a piece right now, there's a perfect placement". He fell just before clipping the next bolt and took a nice, sliding 30 footer down the slab and over a small overhang. He wasn't a happy camper.
You always keep something? What? 4 cams and a set of nuts? 6 cams and a set of nuts? What if you don't have the right size?
If it's a mixed pro route, that's a different scenario. But I'm not lugging trad gear to a sport only crag, on the off off chance that there's one piece that might help. But hey, do as you like.
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munckee
Mar 22, 2004, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: and if you're sport climbing, you shouldn't be carrying gear to begin with! According to who?? I always keep something with me in terms of gear, even on a sport climb. You never know when it might come in handy. Anecdotal example: Climbing out at enchanted rock (centex) a while back, some guys were on a toughish sport route off to our left. The first guy is leading, gets to the crux about ten feet over his last bolt, and says, "man I wish I had a piece right now, there's a perfect placement". He fell just before clipping the next bolt and took a nice, sliding 30 footer down the slab and over a small overhang. He wasn't a happy camper. You always keep something? What? 4 cams and a set of nuts? 6 cams and a set of nuts? What if you don't have the right size? If it's a mixed pro route, that's a different scenario. But I'm not lugging trad gear to a sport only crag, on the off off chance that there's one piece that might help. But hey, do as you like.
I've never been to a climbing area that was declared "sport only". Who defines what a mixed pro route is vs. a sport route? Besides, even if you were heading to a sport only area, would it be that difficult to carry a set of stoppers?
I'm not arguing, I'm just curious. I will continue to do as I like, as should you as well.
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caughtinside
Mar 22, 2004, 11:34 PM
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Well, for example, two of the areas I go to most could be considered 'sport only' because of the friable nature of the rock. I wouldn't trust the rock to hold gear without exploding under a fall.
Other places, like Owens RG, has both sport and trad, with a couple mixed pro routes. However, there aren't too many mixed pro routes, and something like 600+ bolt protected routes. I don't like hiking in trad gear if it ain't necessary, and I'm probably not going to climb the one route that needs one 2 inch cam, when there's plenty of other climbs to do.
A place like Jtree is different. Mixed pro routes are common and I'd take the rack.
I guess in my mind, if a route needs additional gear, its not really a sport route. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd like to know ahead of time, so I don't have to carry extra gear 'just in case.'
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maiorlive
Mar 23, 2004, 12:31 AM
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Something you can check on a bolt even on the hardest of climbs is placement relative to the rock formation. My father, the engineer, tells me I should always be looking for two things. His first point was covered by rrradam in a previous thread: bolts on the face will hold greater downward forces than bolts in a roof because a 3/8ths inch bolt will withstand greater shear forces than its expansion sheath will hold pulling straight out of the hole. (I believe that’s called axial tension, but terminological certainty escapes me at the moment.)
Second, the shear force a bolt can hold is limited by the surface area of the face around it. The closer the bolt hole to the edge of a sheet of rock, the weaker the bolt placement. So not only should you be careful of bolts in a roof, but if the next bolt on the face is only 2 or 3 inches above the roof, you may wish to exercise a little more caution than usual. Same is true for a bolt placed within inches of an arete or just below a ledge. Why a bolt might be placed close to a ledge or arete is beyond me, but it’s a big world full of strange things. I have seen a handful of bolts just inches above a roof.
I don’t know what the forces would have to be to pull out an expansion bolt rather than shear one off. I don’t know what the shear forces would have to be to break the rock around a bolt at the edge of a face rather than in the middle of a face. But in both cases, I have it on good authority that, relatively speaking, the former is considerably weaker than the later.
And, yes, "terminological" was my two bit word of the day. I broke the bank.
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socalbolter
Mar 23, 2004, 1:20 AM
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for those of you that mentioned a "spinner" as the sign of a bad bolt, this is not always the case.
if, when the bolt was initially placed, the hole was not drilled deep enough, the bolt will bottom out and not sandwich the hanger securely to the rock face. this will allow the hanger to spin. in all bolt styles i can think of, a bottomed-out bolt will still be secure and work properly.
the only consideration is how far out from the rock the shaft is sticking. if it's out a considerable distance a fall would possibly generate more than the normal amount of leverage. if we're talking about a modern, high-strength bolt there still would be little to worry about.
in most cases a spinner only means it's going to be harder to clip.
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socalbolter
Mar 23, 2004, 1:27 AM
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another thought in relation to one of the other posts in this thread.
most bolt manufacturers suggest placing bolts a minimum of 8-10 times the diameter of the bolt away from other holes or weaknesses. on a standard 3/8" bolt this would equate to 3 to 3-3/4". this probably comes best into play (for climbing) when discussing how close belay bolts are to each other, but could also be applied to seams, thin cracks, pockets and other "field" breaks. "perimeter" breaks such as aretes, wide cracks and roofs should i'm sure have a greater separation. i would guess somewhere around double this distance?
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kidmoab
Mar 23, 2004, 1:46 AM
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I believe it's possible for the spinner's hanger to score the bolt and weaken it's shear strength.
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