|
alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 5:25 AM
Post #26 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 979
|
In reply to: I personally despise the "Earth Firsters" and think they have pushed the fine line between activism and terrorism into the dark side. They, on the other hand, are proud of their extremist past. At times they seem willing to injure or kill for their own ideals. f--- that. Their right to protest ends at my right to live. *shakes head*
And your right to dig, mine, chop, cut, fish, hunt, pollute, expand, develop, trade, exploit, and destroy ends at my, my children and your childrens right to live.
Hayduke lives maaan, Hayduke lives...
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Mar 29, 2004, 5:50 AM
Post #27 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
Hey bro. The people getting maimed by those spikes are blue collar sawmill workers. Just doing their job.
The way to support your cause is NOT by injuring the innocent.
I don't give a shit what your 'cause' is. Intentionally doing something that will injure innocent bystanders is wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 6:35 AM
Post #28 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 979
|
A) Innocent means innocent. Not mindless drone raping and pillaging because it's their job. I mean, I'm not going to go work on a cattle farm. Take responsibility for your choices.
B) I agree that intentionally hurting people is wrong though. However, placing "traps" or whatnot which protects the vulnerable (whatever it may be) and poses a threat to someone only if they continue with their plans, is different. To me, that kind of passive-agressive defence is A-OK. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone hurt or killed but to me, that doesn't mean "don't spike a tree and tell people you did it", it means "don't take a chainsaw to the tree with a spike in it".
|
|
|
|
|
oldandintheway
Mar 29, 2004, 6:48 AM
Post #29 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 2450
|
8) HAYDUKE LIVES! 8)
|
|
|
|
|
chupa
Mar 29, 2004, 6:51 AM
Post #30 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 223
|
OK. Hippies and greenpeace people are sometimes different. Personall I can't stand greenpeace people and environmentalists in general. I know they think they are doing a good thing but they fail to look upon the ramifications of their actions.
The "passive aggressive" way about the possibility to mame someone if they continue on their pillaging ways is donkey-doo. You are potentially maming a hard working American who is slaving all day to provide food and shelter for his family. His "logging" trade puts roofs over peoples heads, roofs over buildings people are employed at and provides an essential function for society today.
I have no family members in the logging industry or any other industry that environmentalists think is intrusive to their lifestyle. In fact I don't even know anybody in that industry come to think about it. What I do know is that the people that put these people's lives in danger need to have their rights removed as American citizens. Yes that does mean jail, and lots of time in it.
You all have a good day now and make sure you bathe regularly!
|
|
|
|
|
alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 7:27 AM
Post #31 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 979
|
A) For all you anti-environmentalist, anti-hippie, anti-greenpeace or whatever douchebags check your ecological footprint and realize the earth cannot support us:http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp#
It takes 2 minutes....
B) chupa
pfffffft. And all those "hippies" are making sure that 50 or 100 years from now there will still be a healthy population to need rooves over their heads.
Ramifications for the actions? Man it works both ways. Equally, the loggers (or whomever) seeing themselves as "a hard working American who is slaving all day to provide food and shelter for his family" but in reality he is butchering the very planet which provides for him and his family. And while we're on the "providing for" issue with trees: American percentage of world population - 4.7%, American percentage of world use of pulp/paper - 33%.... Think about it. That's just one example. And no, I'm not giving you more, go do research if you really give a shit.
As far as "putting lives in danger"... They make you aware of it. If a city worker takes off a manhole cover on a busy street, and makes everyone aware of the danger, is he guilty? By giving the warning the onus is off you.
I think you fail to realize the importance of your environment. At the current rate of consumption the planet CAN NOT support us. C-A-N N-O-T. Think about it.
|
|
|
|
|
rendog
Mar 29, 2004, 10:25 AM
Post #32 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 2468
|
In reply to: In reply to: I personally despise the "Earth Firsters" and think they have pushed the fine line between activism and terrorism into the dark side. They, on the other hand, are proud of their extremist past. At times they seem willing to injure or kill for their own ideals. f--- that. Their right to protest ends at my right to live. *shakes head* And your right to dig, mine, chop, cut, fish, hunt, pollute, expand, develop, trade, exploit, and destroy ends at my, my children and your childrens right to live. Hayduke lives maaan, Hayduke lives...
so then i guess you live in a lean-to, eat grass, don't drive or use the public transportation, walk around wearing a grass loin cloth, don't use any dishes to eat your grass on so you don't have to wash anything, have no job, wipe your bum with you hand and can't read or write. Also how are you all powering you computers????????????? y'all think that electricity is some magical thing that is developed right in the plug in???? SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You would have none of these things with out industry. Some say these things have improved our way of life. Personally I think 30% improvement, 70% increased it's convienence
Now I'm not saying that logging, mining, etc are good by any stretch of the imagination, however, they do need to be REGULATED. but to think you are going to get industry to stop and move in a reverse direction from the last 500 odd years then you, my friend, are sorely disillusioned.
Industry needs to have regs set out. that much is evident. so get off this high godd@mn horse.
As far as logging goes I hate it. but i do recognize that is a neccessary evil. I personally would be A LOT more comfortable with the growth of Hemp plants to replace the destruction of trees. 1 acre of hemp plants provide the approximate pulp and paper as 10 acres of trees. Plus in addition to that it only takes a fraction of the time to replace those that get harvested.
"if it can't be grown it's has to be mined."
|
|
|
|
|
wallwombat
Mar 29, 2004, 12:13 PM
Post #33 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2003
Posts: 727
|
What planet are you cosmic crusaders from. I've never heard such a heap of poo in my life.
Hippies are not necessarily Environmentalists.
Environmentalists are not necessarily Hippies
Use your imagination.
Look beyond the feckin label.
No wonder you guys cant feckin catch any terrorists. You are all lookin for these swarthy-looking, sinister, turban-wearing bearded guys, with bombs strapped to them and big signs around their necks saying TERRORIST
Hate wears many faces.
You guys think that if some guy has long hair, a beard, love-beads and drives a VW van, then there is a good chance he's some kind of enviro-terrorist, hell bent on disrupting society.
Pull ya head in.
We are not in danger from the Hippies
|
|
|
|
|
justsendingits
Mar 29, 2004, 12:27 PM
Post #34 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 1070
|
Shane, Adam, do you see the Shite opinions I have to deal with in this country??
"We don't inherit the planet from our ancestors; we borrow it from our grandchildren"!!!
|
|
|
|
|
greyicewater
Mar 29, 2004, 2:46 PM
Post #35 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2003
Posts: 419
|
hehe... "dear hippies, for every animal you don't eat, i'll eat three..."
|
|
|
|
|
chupa
Mar 29, 2004, 3:32 PM
Post #36 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 223
|
Mr. Foward
If I place a bomb in a grocery store because I hate their high prices, tell everyone it won't go off until someone rings through the register would that be ok? I would be making everyone aware of it.
Your argument holds no water. People like you are hypocrites. You point your finger at the logging industry, yet you use timber related products all the time. The homes you live in, the paper you use and the very technology you use today to post on this forum wouldn't be here without this industry. Your rights stop as soon as you infringe upon the civil liberties of another. Those types of "environmentalists" are no better than terrorists. If you want to make an impact there are better ways of going about it. You can write your local congressman, go through legal actions, make a presentation and do some actual work. Also, don't complain about government not doing anything. If you believe strongly enough about this then maybe run for congress or find a "sane" environmentalist to run and exact change.
Telling someone that is an active member in the community and goes about things in a legal and intelligent way (i.e. not resorting to terrorist like actions) to do their homework is complete arrogance on your part. I wish no harm on you or any of your environmentalist friends, but I do wish you would get a clue.
p.s. Go eat some beef
|
|
|
|
|
raindog
Mar 29, 2004, 3:33 PM
Post #37 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2003
Posts: 200
|
Somebody please show some documentation where a logger was injured from a spike in a tree. Most tree spikers put the spikes in at above head level so it doesn't hurt the loggers, but the saws in the mill.
-Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
chupa
Mar 29, 2004, 3:49 PM
Post #38 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 223
|
Raindog,
I personally have never heard of it. I'm just responding to the act (assuming that it's true) of putting peoples lives in danger. I really hope it isn't true!!! (the people getting hurt part)
|
|
|
|
|
danooguy
Mar 29, 2004, 3:58 PM
Post #39 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2002
Posts: 3659
|
In reply to: Most tree spikers put the spikes in at above head level so it doesn't hurt the loggers, but the saws in the mill.
A criminal act nonetheless.
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Mar 29, 2004, 4:17 PM
Post #40 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
alwaysforward, and anyone else in this debate.
Lets try to keep it civil, no need for name calling, but here's another point I'd like to make.
I think the problem with activist groups such as earth first, is they blame the messenger. The logging industry exists to supply society with what they demand. The problem is not that logging companies exist and prosper, but that society demands more than our natural resources can provide in the long run.
While maiming sawmill workers may seem like an attack on the problem, they are actually just terrorizing the people who have very little to do with the problem.
By doing so, they are showing their ignorance, and damn their cause in the eyes of self thinking intelligent members of society.
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Mar 29, 2004, 4:21 PM
Post #41 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
In reply to: Somebody please show some documentation where a logger was injured from a spike in a tree. Most tree spikers put the spikes in at above head level so it doesn't hurt the loggers, but the saws in the mill. -Jeff
A hardened steel blade hitting a possibly hardened steel spike will cause major problems. I've been in a small mill before, and the layout of them will put the workers in a significant risk if a sawblade shears or explodes.
I don't want to waste my time looking for documentation of an injury due to a spike. The fact is, the potential is there.
And my above point stands that they are beating the messenger. Blaming the soldier, so to speak, for the politics of his country.
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Mar 29, 2004, 4:24 PM
Post #42 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
In reply to: What planet are you cosmic crusaders from. I've never heard such a heap of poo in my life. Hippies are not necessarily Environmentalists.
Environmentalists are not necessarily Hippies Use your imagination. Look beyond the feckin label. No wonder you guys cant feckin catch any terrorists. You are all lookin for these swarthy-looking, sinister, turban-wearing bearded guys, with bombs strapped to them and big signs around their necks saying TERRORIST
Hate wears many faces. You guys think that if some guy has long hair, a beard, love-beads and drives a VW van, then there is a good chance he's some kind of enviro-terrorist, hell bent on disrupting society. Pull ya head in. We are not in danger from the Hippies
Dude, you must have lost something in the translastion to Aussie. We've moved beyond the labeling of hippies, and into the realm of wether earth first type orgs. are justified in their actions.
Thread hijaking at it's finest, come on man, you aught to have figured out how this stuff works! :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
Mar 29, 2004, 4:43 PM
Post #44 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
In reply to: In reply to: Blaming the soldier, so to speak, for the politics of his country . The soldier enacts the policy of his government. Do soldiers walk around knowing that they are safe and untouchable because when they kill it's not their fault? Or do they watch their backs, knowing that it is their place to kill and to be killed? Look at the Nuremberg trial transcripts to see whether the argument, "I was just following orders" holds any water.
So now a laborer in a sawmill is the moral equivilent to an SS officer?
If you can make that logical leap then surely you would concede that, the ELF, Earth First, PITA et,al. are terrorists of the same stripe that blew up the club in Bali.
I live less than a mile from where the ELF torched a car dealership. The environmental damage from that incident was orders of magnitude greater than the effect the vehicles would have had if they had lived out their normal life spans. An Epidemioligist could easily make the case that they have directly led to the future early deaths of several children from exposure to the toxic smoke they created. That these groups haven't killed anyone directly yet is mostly a mater of luck. It will happen sooner or later. The reaction will only tar those that want responsible change.
Hunt 'em down like the terrorists that they are :evil:
|
|
|
|
|
wildtrail
Mar 29, 2004, 4:46 PM
Post #45 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 11063
|
In reply to: they plant the trees..... they chain themselves to the trees.... they get tossed in the wood-chipper with the trees.....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
tradman
Mar 29, 2004, 5:00 PM
Post #46 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 7159
|
In reply to: So now a laborer in a sawmill is the moral equivilent to an SS officer?
In terms of moral responsibility to themselves, yes! Everybody must take responsibility for what do, and be aware of the potential consequences to themselves.
If your job offends, then be prepared for the consequences. Any cop can tell you that.
In reply to: If you can make that logical leap then surely you would concede that, the ELF, Earth First, PITA et,al. are terrorists of the same stripe that blew up the club in Bali.
Absolutely!
In terms of moral responsibility to themselves, they are in exactly the same league. Their message is even the same in moral terms: "we want to communicate a message, and although we do not want to harm anyone, we will accept it if it happens"
Neither side is innocent. Terrorists deserve to be made to take responsibility, and to be punished as merited. But so do loggers. And whereas I don't doubt that terrorists deserve far greater punishments, I hardly think that means we should let loggers who wreck the environment off scot-free.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Mar 29, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #47 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I'm sorry to interrupt, but if anybody comes accross some spikes I left in some trees, would you send them back to me? I'll pay the shipping. Reduce, reuse, recycle!
|
|
|
|
|
din
Mar 29, 2004, 6:04 PM
Post #48 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2004
Posts: 496
|
ceramic spikes are totally the best.
and people with families get killed everyday doing more important things, like driving cabs, and holding up package stores. what's wrong with losing a few loggers? they're a renewable resource, much more so than old growth forsests, blah, blah, blah.
|
|
|
|
|
alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 7:13 PM
Post #49 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 979
|
rendog - It's not about eliminating our use of the environment and our toll on the resources, rather it's about limiting and controlling them until we reach a sustainable level.
chupa - Yeah, I knew that my analogy argument held no water, I just threw it in for good measure heh.
As far as change from the inside regarding the environment, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work in America. Environmental summits, scientific peer-reviewed articles, lobby groups and foreign policy change seems to be irrelevant. The people with power in America, and the industrialized world in general, are the entities whose concerns are for economic gain. These powerhouses are who the government looks to for ideas. Not the grassroots, volunteer run, environmental lobbyists or the fringe political parties.
Through predominatly non-violent terrorism awareness and practical effectiveness can actually help the cause. And try to think of terrorism as it's dictionary definition, not the connotation you have about it after 9/11.
http://www.spilkerales.com/art/wrench_tap.jpg
+
http://www.theweakgeteaten.com/images/bicep.jpg
=
http://www.astroawareness.com/...r%20earth%20card.jpg
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
Mar 29, 2004, 8:32 PM
Post #50 of 83
(1547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
In reply to: Through predominatly non-violent terrorism awareness and practical effectiveness can actually help the cause. And try to think of terrorism as it's dictionary definition, not the connotation you have about it after 9/11.
Main Entry: ter·ror
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands [insurrection and revolutionary terror]
synonym see FEAR
That makes non-violent terrorism one of the most oxymoronic, (or just plain moronic) comments in awhile.
Thank God for Carnivore. At least "they" know where you live.
8) 8) 8) 8)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
