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organic
Apr 18, 2004, 5:36 AM
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With the trend of recent religious discussion I am wondering what spirituality means to each person here. Not how to get to heaven or what religion is right. Just if you worship something, why do you worship and what does spirituality mean to you.
For me I think spirituality is love. It is what almost every great spiritual teacher taught and in a world so fading, what else could be more important than to help your fellows by bearing their burdens.
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tattooed_climber
Apr 18, 2004, 6:22 AM
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to me, spiritually has to do with ones spirit, now this thought can manifest from literal or figural terms (lit: one having the "team spirit".....fig: spirit as in apart of you not physical persent in this world).....to me, both are one in the same to me as i do loosely believe in karma ,...yet lately my faith isn't so strong....
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tgreene
Apr 18, 2004, 12:44 PM
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I don't believe that religion and spirituality are even remotely the same thing, but do believe they are very inter-connected...
Each time I rope up (or enter a cave or whitewater), I make sure that I take a moment to ask GOD for a safe passage, and that he keep his hands upon me and my partners. When in a dicey situation, as I was one night at OozeFest near midnight on a ledge when my headlamp burned out, I ask HIM for advice and peace, and it is there. Maybe it's merely a coincidence, or maybe I just convinced myself that it's all very real and I received the strength directly from that... All the maybe's in the world could never convince me that it's not God's love for us in action! ;)
While I don't want to turn this thread into a bunch of typical religious and prayer type mumbo-jumbo, I did want to point out that it does work for me.
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rrrADAM
Apr 18, 2004, 2:48 PM
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Note-I am an atheist, and have been for decades.
To me, it is knowing my purpose and feeling comfortable in my own skin.
I used to always judge my insides by the outsides of others, and either I came up better than or worse than because I never really knew who I was. I always wanted to be someone else, or have a better job, chick, car, etc... I always thought life wasn't fair, and that I always got the short end of the stick.
Now, I know my purpose... How I make a difference... And most importantly, I am happy to live in my skin, and would not want to live in anyone else's. This was a long and painfull process for me due to IV drug addiction, sister's suicide, fostor homes, etc... But getting through all that has made me who I am. It is also an ongoing process, as every year I grow, and my life is better than the prior year, and not just concerning physical things. I also know that I have much growth needed in certain areas of my life. Now I am thankfull life is not fair, as if it were I would be dead or in prison.
Some things that have shaped my spirituality:
-Recover from Addiction (12 Step Fellowship)
-Philosophy (Eastern Thought)
-Physical & Mental aspects of Martial Arts then Climbing.
-Music
-Life Experiences
-Close friends
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans." ~John Lennon
"A closed mind cannot think freely." ~Bruce Lee
"A pearl is a temple built with pain around a grain of sand...
What longing built our bodies, and around what grains?" ~Kahlil Ginran
"Life is a lesson, you learn it when your through." ~Fred Durst
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chupa
Apr 18, 2004, 3:15 PM
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It means having two hot babes in my "church" going over my "religion" numerous times until I "see the light"
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wildtrail
Apr 18, 2004, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: For me I think spirituality is love.
I agree with this completely.
I place family and friends first.
I'm not "spiritual" by any means. I don't worship anything. I find it a waste of time and energy. I have faith in myself, my family, and my friends and this is where I dedicate the bulk of my time and energy. Unlike something worshipped, I can always count on the people I love in my life because I know they are actually there and there for me (as I am for them).
So, if anything, I agree with what you said organic, as quoted above. That and I don't really believe in spirituality, but that's me. :)
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rrrADAM
Apr 18, 2004, 6:42 PM
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I don't get it Steve, please explain...
First this...
In reply to: In reply to: For me I think spirituality is love. I agree with this completely.
But then this...
In reply to: I'm not "spiritual" by any means.
So I don't get it. :?
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ipsofacto
Apr 18, 2004, 7:13 PM
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elemeno
Apr 18, 2004, 7:46 PM
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True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness.~Einstein
Though, the hot babes in my "church" statement really strikes a "chord."
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rrrADAM
Apr 18, 2004, 8:26 PM
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ipso... There are many cultures past and present who have a great "morality" who are/were non christians. The American Indians prior to the white's trying to "civilize them" is a great example... They didn't have locks on their teepees, all lived in harmony with the land, and 97% were non warring and lived in harmony with those around them.
Examples of "christian morality" gone awry would be the Crusades, the Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, and even the Klu Klux Klan.
The birth right of every human is to be treated humanely... And even christians have not treated everyone humanely in their history.
You also gotta remember that we do not have a choice in regards to where we are born... If you were born in China you would be taught a different religion, and if in the Middle East another. Saying anything that implies that Christianity is the right religion implies that all others are wrong... This is not spritual, it is nearsighted and closed minded.
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ipsofacto
Apr 18, 2004, 9:01 PM
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mattdog
Apr 18, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: ipso... There are many cultures past and present who have a great "morality" who are/were non christians. The American Indians prior to the white's trying to "civilize them" is a great example... They didn't have locks on their teepees, all lived in harmony with the land, and 97% were non warring and lived in harmony with those around them.
Dude. American Indians fought and killed each other just as much as whites, Asians, and Africans did. Now, they may have been more spread out... thus making wars more difficult to accomplish, but any time humans get together, they eventually argue, fight, and kill one another. No religion or culture is better or worse than another. Whites just had a technological upper hand. Indians are just as much warlike as whites and vice versa. The Jews used to say the same thing about the Romans. And the Chinese about the Japanese... and the Isrealites about the Egyptians...
We all have that horrible potential. Part of "my" spirituality is understanding that, and preventing seeds of hate to grow in me.
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camhead
Apr 18, 2004, 9:55 PM
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dude, I don't think that there is any sort of universal "christian morality." it is more accurately a human condition to have a community/kinship-based system that essentially is based upon some variation of the "do unto others..." rule, which is conveniently suspended in times of war. We love our friends, hate our enemies, and regard everybody in between with cool indifference. duh.
overall, Christianity is no different from any other morality system
In reply to: however, a society that becomes fractured in its beliefs is one that inevitably becomes decadent and falters.
and as to answering this, Christianity has ALWAYS been fractured in its beliefs. Augustine/Pelagius; literalist/mystic; Orthodox/Catholic; Protestant/Catholic; duh. what the hell does Niesztzszchtche (did I spell that right?) of a non-decadent, non-fractured society? The Habsburgs? Holy Roman Empire? feh.
Niesqwhgjkche is a bedwetter.
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rrrADAM
Apr 18, 2004, 10:09 PM
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Matt... That's not true... I have always admired the old philosophies of the American Indians and their culture. Because of this, I have tried to learn as much as possible about them. Prior to the Concistadors arival under the veil of spreading christianity, when in reality they just wanted gold, approximately 3% of the native tribes warred with neighboring tribes.
Even the indians didn't war with us, until we continually screwed them over.
A good book to read:
The Wisdom Of Little Crow
ipso... Nietzsche's best quote to me is:
"That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." :wink:
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camhead
Apr 18, 2004, 10:32 PM
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uhhhhh, right... Adam, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there[/office]
sorry. I've not read [i]The Wisdom of Little Crow[/i] but I think that your statement was oversimplistic at best and erronious at worst. I don't know where the 3% figure comes from, but I can think of numerous cases throughout the hemisphere that would put that argument on shakey ground.
A few come to mind: the Aztecs were as blatantly imperialistic, expansionist, and religiously superior as the Spanish were. They only gained power after supplanting the Toltecs, who had supplanted the Maya, etc., all in this happy golden age before conquest. Also, further north, new archaeological evidence has come up that actually points to cannibalism among the Anasazi (tribe, not 5.10 shoe). the Inca empire, while not as draconian as the Aztec, were also no peaceful walk in the park.
If you wanna get into specifics, think about ritual sacrifice, soccer games to the death, skinning the daughter of your enemy and wearing the bloody skin as a war garment as you battle her father, etc. All this is pretty common knowledge. Why do you think that Cortés so easily overthrew the Aztecs? he allied with dozens of Indian tribes who were sick of Aztec hegemony.
there was no kind of utopian state of racial harmony prior to 1492; sorry. they were no more or less fractured and contentious as we are/were.
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wildtrail
Apr 18, 2004, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't worship anything. I find it a waste of time and energy. damn right, steve! "time and energy" that could be put to much more productive use in amassing DAMN NEAR 10,000 POSTS!!!1 (camhead ducks Steve's fist)
Damn straight!
Oh, and I never miss twice! :wink:
http://pages.prodigy.net/...moticons/slug.gif%20
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ipsofacto
Apr 18, 2004, 10:43 PM
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rrrADAM
Apr 18, 2004, 10:46 PM
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My bad 3% of North American Indians....
Correct on the Anasazi, I even went on a dig with the Colorado University in Choco(sp?) Canyon where bones have been found that show evidence of canabalism.
I still stand behind approximately 3% of NA Indians lived in harmony with their neighbors. I am not going to site books, as I stopped reading those about 15 years ago, and don't want to site the wrong ones. Take it or leave it... Fine with me. :wink:
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robgordon
Apr 18, 2004, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: I still stand behind approximately 3% of NA Indians lived in harmony with their neighbors. I am not going to site books, as I stopped reading those about 15 years ago, and don't want to site the wrong ones. Take it or leave it... Fine with me. :wink:
...so what you are saying is that YOUR ASS is a better source of facts than BOOKS. hmmm, makes sense.
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mattdog
Apr 18, 2004, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: My bad 3% of North American Indians.... Correct on the Anasazi, I even went on a dig with the Colorado University in Choco(sp?) Canyon where bones have been found that show evidence of canabalism. I still stand behind approximately 3% of NA Indians lived in harmony with their neighbors. I am not going to site books, as I stopped reading those about 15 years ago, and don't want to site the wrong ones. Take it or leave it... Fine with me. :wink:
Yo Adam... I don't think everyone is pointing out the errors in your estimation, but the conclusion that could be drawn from them. By implying that American Indians were all less warlike and more "harmonious" with nature, it further implies that other cultures (namely Europeans) were somehow worse.
While you maybe trying to be an exponent of natural living by praising the Indian society, you're inadvertantly contributing to the basic problem of human divisivness.
One of the main tenets of my own "sprituality" is the understanding that truly, all human beings are one in the same, with the same hopes, feelings, and dreams as every other human being. If you went to Africa and found a native tribesman, and talked to him about his life, you'd find that he's not much different than yourself.
What about his first kiss?
What about his relationship with his father?
What about his first fight?
What does he worry about on a daily basis?
(Proabably providing for his family, just like you and me.)
Far far too often, people focus on the differences between cultures, and never the similarities and unifying characteristics of humans as a whole. These are the things which bind us all together. Unfortunately, the human condition is only to see a very small part of humanity throughout our lives. Thus we ALL fight, kill, and hurt one another because we are ALL confused, angry, and hurt throughout our lives.
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ipsofacto
Apr 18, 2004, 11:17 PM
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No, rob, what he is saying is that his beliefs are not open for public examination. It raises the question: why are people so threatened? I'm an agnostic, but I will march through the fires of hell in an effort to defend a person’s right to a particular system of beliefs. In all instances, it is a deeply personal matter, and denigrating that person’s ideology is akin to slapping them across the face. So cut it out you bunch of limp-wristed milksops.
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camhead
Apr 18, 2004, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: My bad 3% of North American Indians.... Correct on the Anasazi, I even went on a dig with the Colorado University in Choco(sp?) Canyon where bones have been found that show evidence of canabalism. I still stand behind approximately 3% of NA Indians lived in harmony with their neighbors. I am not going to site books, as I stopped reading those about 15 years ago, and don't want to site the wrong ones. Take it or leave it... Fine with me. :wink:
well, since I'm in an argumentative mood today, I'm going to keep on nitpicking, adam. heh.
1. Technically, Mexico and central America are part of North America
2. you spoke initially of conquistadors raiding Indians and stealing their gold. these were the Aztec and Inca, NOT "north american indians."
3. Aztecs were linked inextricably with "north american" indians such as the Utes and Pueblo, linguistically and religiously. numerous ties, from the Uto-aztecan language group to the Kachina cult, to the mythical homeland of Aztlan.
I really don't think that you can make distinctions and divide Indians according to continental factors that they themselves did not acknowledge pre-1492 (or pre-1848 for that matter).
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chupa
Apr 19, 2004, 12:28 AM
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This thread is stupid. As you should all know by now my morality is better than your morality. If you disagree with me you are wrong. I can provide proof that my morality is better than yours as soon as several dozen people publish a book about my life and my morality because they follow me blindly. I even had one guy convinced I walk on water and another convinced a buddy of mine spent a week inside some big ass fish. It's great fooling gullible people. I'll let everyone know when the book is done and after I return from the dead. You can then follow me and my new religion...Bullshism
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ipsofacto
Apr 19, 2004, 12:31 AM
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