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roc-dude
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Apr 22, 2004, 6:43 PM
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I have had a heated discussion with a climber I respect very much and we were debating a simple question. When clipping a draw to a bolt and your direction of travel is to your right, which direction should the gate on the rope end of the draw face, left or right or either? In the same vain, when clipping a draw to a bolt and your direction of travel is to your right, which direction should the gate on the bolt face, left or right or either?
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xclimber
Apr 22, 2004, 6:52 PM
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My understanding is that the gate on the bottom (rope end) 'biner should face away from your direction of travel...
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cgailey
Apr 22, 2004, 6:59 PM
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I find this amusing as I was just debating the same issue yesterday with some friends. We did all come to the consensus that the gate should always face opposite your direction of travel. As far as the side for the bolt clipping end, I am waiting for some great advice and reasoning for a specific direction.
If you go with the standard opposing gate draw setup (that is the gates open on opposite sides on the ends of the draw), and you intend to clip the rope with the gate facing away from your direction of travel, then the gate on the bolt end would be facing your direction of travel.
Let's hear it you old salts! :D
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survivalexpert
Apr 22, 2004, 7:01 PM
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Yes, I agree, the bottom biners gate should face away from the direction of travel, you want the rope to contact the fixed side of the biner in a fall. That makes perfect logical sense. And as for the top biner that goes to the bolt, it makes sense to me that it should be connected so that its gate opens the opposite direction from the bottom biners gate. This way if you fell out towards the right for example, then the bottom biners gate would be facing left so that the fixed side contacts the rope, and the top biner, with its gate facing left, would have diagonal pull with the force more on its fixed side. Right?
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petsfed
Apr 22, 2004, 7:29 PM
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It depends. On hard leads (eg ones where you've prehung the draws) the extra inch and a half that is necessary from clipping a gate on the opposite side from you. Not much I know, but could be the difference between glory and poltroonery. For general use, the BD setup works just fine (BD has all of their gates face the same direction, with the idea that you'll clip away from you when you clip a bolt) and should be your "onsight" system.
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jv
Apr 22, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I have had a heated discussion with a climber I respect very much and we were debating a simple question. When clipping a draw to a bolt and your direction of travel is to your right, which direction should the gate on the rope end of the draw face, left or right or either? In the same vain, when clipping a draw to a bolt and your direction of travel is to your right, which direction should the gate on the bolt face, left or right or either?
I like the safety argument: if your fall line is on the right, and the gate is facing left, the rope slides across the spine of the biner as you descend, rather than across the gate.
JV
PS I don't think the orientation of the top biner makes any difference.
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jt512
Apr 22, 2004, 8:47 PM
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Gates of both biners should face away from the direction of travel. This topic comes up once a month on this board. Try a search.
-Jay
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roc-dude
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Apr 22, 2004, 11:28 PM
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The Guy I was having the discussion with claimed when gate was facing the opposite direction of your climbing line the draw be pulled up (lets say your climbing to the right of the Draw) to an angle about 3 to 5 o’clock as you look at the draw. This would cause the top carabiner to rotate a little to the center of the hanger that causes the rope carabiner to rotate up a quarter of a turn. He stated that instead of having a gate facing a way from you it is now rotated up a turn and the gate is facing up where it could potential act like a back clip. I disagreed with him because of what I was taught. But when he showed it to me I saw his point. As the Draw was pulled up the gate did rotate to an up position. I still don't think I will change the way I clip unless someone can prove this really happens in a fall satuation. I do think this is food for thought and I am always open to learn new tricks.
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bustloose
Apr 30, 2004, 10:07 PM
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oh good lord. that is the biggest load of garbage i have ever seen. up, down, 3:00, quarter turning, what the fuck?
face the rope end away from the direction of your clmbing to avoid the nasty unclippage in the case of a fall.
people have argued the top end gate forever without conclusive safety evidence on either side. so... your choice.
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cacti-tro
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May 2, 2004, 2:45 AM
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gates should be on the same side, and not opposite. Black Dimaond has done this for a few years now. the reason is that the load of the fall should be on the spine of the beaner.
if you are climbing to the right of your draw, both the top and bottom beaners should face left.
this way the gate will face downwards and gravity will keep the spine of the beaners on the rope and bolt, and not the gate.
like i said, BD did some research on this and now all their draws retail with the gates facing the same way.
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ptone
May 2, 2004, 4:16 AM
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NOTE: This thread should be joined with "yet another clipping question"
Read it for more answers to the same problems.
oh, and I clip the biner with the spine facing the way I go--keeps the rope from potentially crossing in a fall and unclipping (kindof like what happens when backclipped), especially on slab where the rope drags on the same plane (or so I've been told).
peace,
-p
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tenn_dawg
May 2, 2004, 5:32 AM
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In reply to: people have argued the top end gate forever without conclusive safety evidence on either side. so... your choice.
The Bolt end is the critical end. The rope us much less likely to come unclipped from the biner than the draw is to come unclipped from the bolt. It's easy to unclip a draw from a bolt.
Both gates should face away from the direction of travel with the priority being given to the top biner.
Or don't believe me. Whatever.
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bandidopeco
May 2, 2004, 5:55 AM
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just a question: Has anyone seen some slo-mo video of what happens to a quickdraw during a fall or a variety of falls?
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chuffinator
May 2, 2004, 6:35 AM
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Dude,
The gate should always face the opposite direction of the climb. I have seen climbers unclip themselves on overhanging routes as a result of the gate facing the same direction of the climb.
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tenn_dawg
May 2, 2004, 6:40 AM
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In reply to: just a question: Has anyone seen some slo-mo video of what happens to a quickdraw during a fall or a variety of falls?
No I haven't, but I can speculate.
What happens in a fall is a non issue 9 times out of 9.1.
The trouble is when your movement flips the draw up on top of the hanger and it falls down to the side with the gate laying on the bolt or the hanger. I've seen this happen at the red, and a 30' fall and 11 (I think?) stiches resulted.
The reasoning behind the rope unclipping from the biner is solid and well founded, but unclipping from the hanger is the bigger risk.
There's also the gate of the lower biner being opened by rotation across the rock argument...
In short, this means that your damned if you do, and damned if you dont on lower beiner orientation. The top one is the one that matters.
Okay, I'm done. Believe me if you want to, or do what you want.
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nagatana
May 2, 2004, 6:57 AM
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Perfectly illustrates the point; nice tenn_dawg.
The last photo would be great if it wasn't for the distracting draw.
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cgailey
May 2, 2004, 8:42 AM
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Totally off subject tenn dawg, but are those the metolius wiregate draws you are using? I just ordered some and wanted to know what you thought of them...easy clipping?
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tenn_dawg
May 3, 2004, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: Totally off subject tenn dawg, but are those the metolius wiregate draws you are using? I just ordered some and wanted to know what you thought of them...easy clipping?
Awww, I'm not the person to ask, I'm not much for the nuances of different kinds of gear, especially quickdraws.
For what it's worth though, these belonged to my friend, and they didn't give me any problems that I recall. Or at least they didn't make me cuss while throwing a dyno with my new digital SLR. That fixed sling with the oval is the tough one.
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sarcat
May 4, 2004, 3:27 PM
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This is the first time I've ever heard that the TOP biner orientatin made a difference. You're all say'n I should swap all my draws around? I like to clip towards me with the draw. Then the bottom biner is away from the direction of travel.
If in a fall dosen't the top biner rest in its "pocket" while hanging on the bolt regardless of orientation?
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roc-dude
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May 4, 2004, 3:58 PM
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In Tenn_Dawg last picture, the bottom clipped draw is showing what this post is concerning. If you look at the draw and the bottom biner you will start to see it rotate and the gate turning up and the spine turning to the wall. In a fall the rope may fall across the gate opening it and allowing the rope to come unclipped. The further left and higher he would have gone to the next hanger the more the gate would tune up. This is what my friend was trying to prove to me. He states that people should clip with the gate towards the direction of travel because of this draw rotation problem which can turn the gate up. I guess what the real question is, what happens to the draw in a fall situation does it drop or does it stay in the same position?
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beesty511
May 4, 2004, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: He states that people should clip with the gate towards the direction of travel because of this draw rotation problem which can turn the gate up. I guess what the real question is, what happens to the draw in a fall situation does it drop or does it stay in the same position?
Are either you or your friend aware of a phenomena on Earth known as gravity? :( But what the heck, let's assume there was no such thing as gravity, and the draw stayed fixed in a horizontal position with the gate facing downward. If the climber fell--well I guess we'll have to assume the draw is the only anti-gravity object in this scene--and the rope pulled down on the gate, what would happen? Assuming no obstruction near the draw, when the rope started to pull ever so slightly on the gate of the draw, the draw would start rotating downward. The draw would continue to rotate downward around the bolt until the gate was no longer horizontal and it was angled downward. Then, at some point, the climber pulling on the rope would cause it to slide down the angled gate into the bottom of the biner, and subsequently the full impact of the climber would hit the draw.
Furthermore, when you cross load a biner, it does not matter whether the rope is pulling on the gate or it's pulling on the spine--because to cross load it something has to be pulling on the other side right?--so how was your friend able to make a convincing argument to you that the gate should be facing up when the rope rotates the draw to prevent crossloading? Or, did your friend argue that just because a rope pulls on the gate, it will self unclip?
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tenn_dawg
May 4, 2004, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: This is the first time I've ever heard that the TOP biner orientatin made a difference. You're all say'n I should swap all my draws around? I like to clip towards me with the draw. Then the bottom biner is away from the direction of travel. If in a fall dosen't the top biner rest in its "pocket" while hanging on the bolt regardless of orientation?
My major concern is with the rotation of the top biner on the hangar into a undesirable position.
Two times I have seen a quick draw come unclipped from the hangar on a slightly traversing route. I've grown wary. The pictures illustrate how I have my draws set, and how I place them. In this picture it's not that big of a deal because the dynamic movement is very close to the bolt and there is not much "bounce" (for lack of a better term) in the rope to flip the draw up on top of the hangar.
In my opinion, what happened both times I saw a QD unclip from the biner is as follows.
The top gate was facing towards the direction of travel.
A jerky or dynamic move was made that flipped the draw up on the hangar, the gate was resting against the actual bolt its self when the fall occured, with the quick draw hanging up side down in the hanger.
The QD unclipped with practically no effort what-so-ever, and the climber hung on for the big ride.
I may be wrong, but my experience and reasoning shows me that the top biner is the critical one. By facing the gate away from the direction of travel on the top, the spine of the biner will roll off of the bolt rather than hanging on it.
I suggest to everyone that the next time you have an easily accessable bolt and hanger at ground level, you clip a quick draw to it and experiment a little bit. You will be suprised how easy it is to unclip one from the hanger by only manipulating the rope end of the draw.
I ALWAYS take the extra moment to consider the direction I clip the draw on the biner. I've had a couple real eye-openers. Thankfully it wasn't me on the sharp end either time. And Thank GOD it wasn't me who placed the draws, I would have felt terrible.
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sarcat
May 4, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: A jerky or dynamic move was made that flipped the draw up on the hangar, the gate was resting against the actual bolt its self when the fall occured, with the quick draw hanging up side down in the hanger. The QD unclipped with practically no effort what-so-ever, and the climber hung on for the big ride.
You mean the top biner became cross loaded in the bolt? I see your point about gate orientation toward the direction of rope pull vs. away. Away the spine of the biner is on the bolt not the gate. Makes sense. How did the biner ACTUALLY come uncliped? Did the gate break open or did it twist and unclip itself?
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