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genlock
Apr 22, 2002, 8:03 AM
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I hope this hasn`t been reviewed here before. The search engine is down, and I`ve looked quickly trough all topics.
Here's the deal! I'm new to rock climbing and I'm building my rack slowly... I want to buy a rappel device, but I'm not sure wich one I should get 8 or Pirana (from Petzl)
I know the fig8 stood the test of time.. But I borrowed my friend`s device to test it.. I'm not confident with it.. no apparent locking mechanism.. while pirana has. Pirana says "for canyoning" what`s the difference??
btw.. I have a Maxim 11mmx50M rope non dry
TIA
- genlock
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hang_man
Apr 22, 2002, 1:53 PM
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pirana has a locking system, but are u gonna use it more for belayer or abseiling? If it's for belayer I'll go for BD ATC, but try not to use it for abseiling cos it's too smooth.... at least the fig8 is combat-proven in a sense, right? and less complicated then the pirana
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daisuke
Apr 22, 2002, 2:04 PM
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I don't like figure 8's no matter what you use them for, except perhaps to have as a backup rapell device. The pirahna seems like a good rappel device, it has 3 levels of friction you can use but you must choose it before beginning the rap and can't change once you start from what I know. I've always liked versatile gear and the pirahna is a versatile rapeller, however I don't know how good it is for belaying.
I would also back up the pirahna with a shunt just to be safe, you never can be too careful
D
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tim
Apr 22, 2002, 2:28 PM
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Figure 8's are great for distance events, eg. hurling, trebuchet, etc. Possibly for serious rescue work where you need an awful lot of cooling and heat exchange on long, heavily loaded rappels (eg. rapping with an injured person) but a short rack is even better for that. As for 8's, I think they're absolutely awful for belaying, especially if you ever use double ropes.
The Piranha seems like an excellent execution of a bad idea. Why not get a Reverso and carry less gear? (I am extremely pleased with mine and have found that by yanking on the axle biner it is even possible to lower a second with it, contrary to posted reports)
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bradhill
Apr 22, 2002, 3:51 PM
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I'd stay away from figure eights. They can catch on locking carabiners and lever them open, leading to serious injury or death.
UIAA journal article
Tube style belay devices are lightweight and versatile. An ATC is a good choice, or a Jaws.
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kevinwaldock
Apr 22, 2002, 4:06 PM
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ATC!!!!! get an ATC i like them even better than gri-gri and reverso's put together. There light,and easy to use. The only disadvantage that i found was when rapping or lowering someone with a small diameter rope (eg less than 10.0) there wasn't enough friction. you obviously won't have that prob wit a 11mm. climb safe.
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tim
Apr 22, 2002, 4:53 PM
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Ever tried to belay two seconds on an ATC? Me neither, they'd kill me once they got there. Whereas I have held two one-after-the-other falls by seconds on a Reverso, and then dialed out appropriate slack afterwards.
I own a Trango Jaws and an old ATC. It used to be I would use the Jaws and my second, if they didn't own a belay device, would use the ATC. Now the Jaws is relegated to belay slave usage and the Reverso goes everywhere with me. It's also better for ice (IMHO) because you can (and will) use it like a Munter hitch.
The only thing I can imagine using another belay device for is a Gri-Gri for hard aid and/or photo rigging. YMMV...
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genlock
Apr 22, 2002, 5:02 PM
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Actually.. it will be mainly for rapelling. I have an ATC for belaying.
- Genlock
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tim
Apr 22, 2002, 5:30 PM
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That was kind of what I was getting at. Why not use an ATC/reverso/whatever for rappelling as well as belaying? If you're doing rescue work or caving or canyoneering I can see the point of getting an 8, otherwise why bother? (and when I say 'an 8' I am referring to all devices of that style, eg. Piranha, Rescue 8's etc)
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addiroids
Apr 22, 2002, 5:40 PM
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An ATC is just fine for rappelling. You can rap on double ropes, and if you are rapping on a single rope and need more friction, just put TWO locking biners (in parallel) of the same size in the system rather than just one.
I have rappelled probably 200+ ropelengths with an ATC and never wished for another device. I have also used a Gri Gri, a carabiner brake rappel, and a Munter Hitch to rap. Learn the biner brake for when you don't have your ATC due to something stupid happening. It's easy and just as smooth as an ATC (however I wouldn't want it to be my primary method).
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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litedawg
Apr 22, 2002, 7:21 PM
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ATC ATC ATC ATC ATC ATC ATC
Before my reincarnation as a rock climber I was an avid spelunker, canyoneerer, and rappeller. I use my ATC for all of the aforementioned activitis and have been pleased as punch with it's performance.
The ATC is not THE perfect piece of equipment for EVERY situation but it does a great job in all scenarios I have encounter.
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rutherford
Apr 22, 2002, 7:24 PM
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Besides, 8's twist your rope, and who needs that??
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krustyklimber
Apr 22, 2002, 8:08 PM
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8's are outdated, we now have a "better way"! An ATC style tuber is the best belay/rappel device we have going right now! With the trend towards smaller ropes one of the "tighter" tubers may be a good investment in the future. I love Black Diamond, but I'm not above admitting when someone else makes something better. I currently own an Omega Pacific SBG , it's really cool, it has a solid "keeper loop" or shaft that attaches it TO your locking carabiner. This helps to keep rope moving smoothly through the device when it is weighted (by you rappeling, or your partner whlie being lowered). It's only real drawback is that it can be difficult to feed with fat ropes, say larger than 10.2mm. It also has a high friction side and a lower friction side, much like Trango's Jaws device (also an excellent choice), which works good enough that I was able to rapp off a few big walls with a very heavy haulbag, without any trouble or the need for a second braking device!
The Dmm Bug, Trango Jaws and HB's Sheriff are also good choices but for my money it would have to be the Omega Pacific!
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-04-22 13:11 ]
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hang_man
Apr 23, 2002, 3:02 PM
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that means ATC is a better choice... but then I saw thr Trango jaws and some cheapskates ATC-lookalike.... which is better, Jaws or BD ATC?
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radistrad
Apr 23, 2002, 3:17 PM
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ATC
The Trango jaws are a joke, I used one and if was mine I would have tossed it from the cliff.
Everyone says ATC beleive us!
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bradhill
Apr 23, 2002, 3:24 PM
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Jabbeaux, I do like the Reverso, but it sucks for rappelling. Too much friction. Maybe if you only use skinny double or twin ropes it would be OK.
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tim
Apr 23, 2002, 3:57 PM
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Well, yeah, it is a bit of a pain with normal-sized ropes. I am used to spidering out my rap device (ATC, Reverso, Jaws, whatever) on a shoulder-length sling, and controlling the descent with a klemheist; it is true that my rappels have been a bit more work since I switched over to the Reverso. Since I have been climbing on my doubles more than usual this season, that may also have colored my perception (it works great with skinny noodle ropes, better than an ATC in fact).
But I really don't think I could go back to an ATC after using the Reverso; it is like a tangle-free Munter hitch at belays. I love that, and the way it works like a Gi-Gi, enough that I can overlook its relatively poor performance on rappel.
Those of you chanting 'ATC, ATC!', how many of you lead multi-pitch routes, sometimes with more than one follower, sometimes swinging leads? Because I can understand how someone who doesn't do an awful lot of belaying from on top would much prefer an ATC, but I can't see why anyone would want to belay off their waist when you can hang a Reverso (or even the hated Gri-Gri) off the anchors, and then just kick back & relax.
YMMV, as always. I'm speaking solely for myself and from my own personal experience.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-04-23 08:58 ]
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jt512
Apr 23, 2002, 4:39 PM
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The Jaws has more holding power than the ATC. On the surface, this sounds like a good thing, but it isn't necessarily. I weigh 135 lb. and can't rappel smoothly with the Jaws (no matter which was I face it). It is also harder to lower a light climber smoothly with one. I only use my Jaws when belaying a heavy climber on a trad route. Otherwise, I use an ATC for trad, a gri-gri for sport.
-Jay
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