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nostyleclmbr
May 26, 2004, 12:52 AM
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Last week I decked. I got dropped thirty feet to the ground by an experienced partner who was using a gri-gri. I took a small fall next to a bolt and my belayer never caught the fall. The pain was ridiclous and I was lucky not to have broken anything but the fall left me with alot of questions that were largely unanswered by my partner. Although I know the gri-gri was loaded correctly he says it never engaged and that the rope just burnt through his hands. I think he might have been pinching the gri-gri preventing it from locking off or something but can't be sure as to what exactly happened which is aggrevating. I quess the lesson I learned is that shit happens even when you're cautious. I always thought the trad and ice climbing I do was sketchier but it was a sport climb at my favorite cragg that messed me up. So I quess my message is beware when using a gri-gri as safe as they can be people mess up. I've searched the forums for gri-gri info but anything pertinent advice would be appreciated because the worst part of the fall is not knowing why.
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alpnclmbr1
May 26, 2004, 12:59 AM
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Given a sense that your belayer does not have a rope burned hand. The answer is obviously that your belayer was not holding onto the rope with his brakehand.
Your "experienced" belayer is anything but given his response.
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ihuang
May 26, 2004, 12:59 AM
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Did your belayer thread the rope through properly?
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curt
May 26, 2004, 1:02 AM
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The reason you fell is because your belayer doesn't know how to belay. That's all there is to it--simple, eh?
Curt
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nostyleclmbr
May 26, 2004, 1:05 AM
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sorry I should haven included these details; the belayer was holding the rope with his break hand according to my friend who was sitting next to him and we did thread the gri-gri correctly. The rope was a newer 10.2 mm and the gri-gri is about a year old.
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rock_raptor
May 26, 2004, 1:11 AM
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he held the cam...user error
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bsignorelli
May 26, 2004, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: sorry I should haven included these details; the belayer was holding the rope with his break hand according to my friend who was sitting next to him
If he was actually holding the rope (as opposed to just letting it run through his hand) then the gri-gri should still stop a fall even without the cam because it would function like any tube style belay device.
Bryn
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johnnord
May 26, 2004, 1:13 AM
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You didn't pay attention to what alpnclbmr1 said. There was no burnt hand. If your belayer were paying attention, he would have caught the fall. One of the problems with the GriGri is that it lulls the belayer into a potentially fatal sense of security. "I don't need to really belay; the device will do the work."
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bigdrop
May 26, 2004, 1:13 AM
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Belayer’s error.
Plain and simple.
Even if the gri-gri doesn’t cam, a competent belayer should be able to catch a fall with minimal effort by bending the rope over the brake plate.
~jca
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alpnclmbr1
May 26, 2004, 1:17 AM
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If your belayer was holding the rope when it failed to lock up he would have a rope burn. Or you can look at it as if the grigri would have locked up if the belayer had been holding the rope.
It is amazing how many otherwise reasonable people believe in the tooth fairy when it comes to belayer failures.
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curt
May 26, 2004, 1:21 AM
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In reply to: sorry I should haven included these details; the belayer was holding the rope with his break hand according to my friend who was sitting next to him and we did thread the gri-gri correctly. The rope was a newer 10.2 mm and the gri-gri is about a year old.
If it was a relatively slow fall, the cam of the Gri-gri may not have engaged. None-the-less, any belayer who knows what he is doing will still be able to easily catch a fall in this scenario--by simply treating the Gri-gri like any passive belay device. Pilot error 100%.
Curt
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vegastradguy
May 26, 2004, 1:35 AM
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last time i checked, an 'experienced' partner wouldnt have taken his brake hand off the rope. :roll:
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nostyleclmbr
May 26, 2004, 1:39 AM
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Ya'll are right it was the belayer's error he probably froze with the deer in head lights look when I fell, afterwards he was a bumbling mess trying to figure out what happened my favorite quote from him was, "maybe some dirt got in the gri-gri messing it up"hahahahah right! I just thought that the force of a fall would have caused the gri-gri to engage regardless of where the idiots hands were. It's just sucks when a good friend and climbing partner for three years drops your ass and the trusty gri-gri doesn't save the day.
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fredrogers
May 26, 2004, 2:20 AM
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Some gri-gri style post like this occurs about once a month. The reason you decked was because your belayer does not fully understand how to use his belay device. Would you ever have titled the post "ATC users beware!!" No, I don't think so.
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epic_ed
May 26, 2004, 2:21 AM
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epic_ed moved this thread from General to Injuries & Accidents.
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epic_ed
May 26, 2004, 2:23 AM
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Instread of blaming the equipment, how 'bout if you change the title of the thread to reflect what really happened. Gri gri's do fail -- but that doesn't appear to be the case in this incident.
Ed
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dredsovrn
May 26, 2004, 2:30 AM
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It is hard to imagine that someone couldn't hold a fall with a gri gri even if the cam did fail. I have used a gri gri, but don't like them. They work fine, but since I need to break anyway (just in case) why not use an ATC or Reverso (or other tube device) and take the guesswork and weight out of it. People say that its nice if your partner is going to hang a lot, but I break anyway then, so what good does it do me? F the gri gri. Sorry, maybe I am out of line. Oh yeah, don't let that a hole belay you anymore.
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deleted
Deleted
May 26, 2004, 2:38 AM
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bad belay devices don't kill people ...
bad [i:4771b8456e]belayers[/i:4771b8456e] kill people.
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pcfcclmbr
May 26, 2004, 2:38 AM
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You're mistaken, it was threaded backwards!
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gumbyinahumvee
May 26, 2004, 2:40 AM
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\\Belayer’s error.
Plain and simple.
Even if the gri-gri doesn’t cam, a competent belayer should be able to catch a fall with minimal effort by bending the rope over the brake plate.
~jca
Actually, you are mistaken. You use the lever to hold the cam open to lower or rapel with the grigri. if you just hold the cam open all the way and try to rely on the friction of the "brake plate" then you or the person you are lowering will hit the ground. Dont believe me? then why dont you go to a gym and lower someone with the cam held completely open, by what you said you should be able to lower them slowly with "minimal effort." I assure you they will hit the ground,... very fast,..... and your above hypothesis will be very wrong. Please go try this before you post another dangerous reply.
When rapping or lowering most people let up on the handle of the grigri when they are going to fast. This is because a grigri provides minimal friction when the cam is not engaged.
vegastradguy posted
last time i checked, an 'experienced' partner wouldnt have taken his brake hand off the rope.
_________________
last time I checked using a grigri for lead belaying always requires one to take his/her brakehand off the rope. Grigris are not dangerous, Stupid MF's who don't properly use them are.
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vegastradguy
May 26, 2004, 2:49 AM
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i've actually lowered off a person w/ a grigri's cam disengaged to see what it was like. while more difficult than using an ATC, its not impossible, and the climber didnt hit the ground 'very fast'.
regardless, a competent belayer still should have had his hand on the brake line and been able to stop the fall.
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gumbyinahumvee
May 26, 2004, 3:06 AM
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every time you lower someone with a grigri the cam is disengaged. You disengage the cam everytime you lower, so what you experienced is what every retard with a grigri has ever experienced!!! We are talking about complete grigri failure when the cam is COMPLETELY DISENGAGED. Go try lowering someone with the black lever completely pulled back. they will hit the ground "very fast" . Or just don't worry about any of this rhetoric and stick to your atc.
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curt
May 26, 2004, 3:17 AM
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In reply to: every time you lower someone with a grigri the cam is disengaged. You disengage the cam everytime you lower, so what you experienced is what every retard with a grigri has ever experienced!!! We are talking about complete grigri failure when the cam is COMPLETELY DISENGAGED. Go try lowering someone with the black lever completely pulled back. they will hit the ground "very fast" . Or just don't worry about any of this rhetoric and stick to your atc.
You could weld the cam fully open on a Gri-gri and I could belay somebody perfectly safely with it. As has been mentioned before, this merely turns the Gri-gri (in essence) into a tube belay device like an ATC.
Curt
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kcrag
May 26, 2004, 3:37 AM
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i took an unnecessary 10'+ fall recently on a sport climb (i was only 1/2 a move above the bolt) because of a gri-gri. my belayer has over 20 years of climbing experience AND got a rope burn during the arrest. i fell long enough to think, 'hey, am i going to stop falling'?
two things in my case:
-thin rope (9.something mm, i think it's on the low end of what is acceptable for a grigri)
-my belayer has been using a grigri for years now and his instict to arrest the fall as you would with an ATC probably didn't kick in quickly (hence the ropeburn).
has anyone used the cinch belay device by trango, which accepts 9-11mm ropes?
-kelly.
and no, it wasn't bobd! :)
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deleted
Deleted
May 26, 2004, 3:46 AM
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people, the simple fact is that this crop of so-called "auto-locking" belay devices has spawned a lazy breed of belayer; a belayer who allows himself to be lulled into the mindset that all that is required of him is to act as balast; that the whiz-bang device will do all the thinking for him.
with the possible exception of a massive stroke, or perhaps rupturing a major vessel coming out of your heart, there is [i:5fddd57d68]no[/i:5fddd57d68] excuse for dropping your leader.
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