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redzit
Apr 20, 2002, 8:09 PM
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It seems that every gym i go to, there is a higher archy of premadona climbers who seem prity cold in the way they act towards me (i am not in this higher archy, that's why i'm complaining)
i find that people who appearnently have not met giving eachother advice with in this higher archy but i have only once revieved that sort of treatment... i find that this is contrary to the beliefe that everyone has the ALL climbers are so nice
please tell me if you see this as well and add your usual difficulty of climb. if find 5.11 to be the devider
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climbchick
Apr 20, 2002, 8:42 PM
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I've been to gyms all over the place and always found that the people were friendly and nice to me. I'm not a hot-shot climber either -- I usually start falling off with depressing regularity at around 5.9/5.10. Even so, there's always been someone around who would offer me a belay or some beta or whatever.
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pianomahnn
Apr 20, 2002, 8:52 PM
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It seems that the gyms are creating a personality in the younger climbers that is less than desirable in the general climbing community.
Egotism and selfindulgence are what it's all about. "You can't climb that?!?" I'm better than you!!
It's sad, but it seems to be the way.
It stems from all the influence in being better than those around that childhood sports gives children. They're taught to be the best; better than anyone. And if they're not, they suck, and are a failure.
Competing against ones own accomplishments isn't taught. It's a shame...
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andy_lemon
Apr 20, 2002, 9:34 PM
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There is no higherarchy of the climbing community! If there were there would be a president of the rockclimbing community to oversee everyone... You don't have to answer to anybody even if you climb 5.6 slabs and some guy at your gym is putting up 13's. Don't give out information on anything you don't have first hand experience on or the "climbing higherarchy" will shine down upon you and it is an excuse for them to show you how little you know and how much knowledge they have.
And remember, there is a difference in climbing with someone who loves to teach AND climbing with someone who knows everything... Get it?
Andy
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andy_lemon
Apr 20, 2002, 9:37 PM
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and climbing levels should be no divider. Climbing levels are an indicator of ability, not experience or knowledge.
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blacksamba
Apr 20, 2002, 10:05 PM
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in my girlfriends opinion the majority of climbers are arse's.
beta this beta that spray spray spray
I hate to agree with her but the growing majority of climbers are falling into this catagory whether it be a sense of elitism or a sociatal trait beat into young children.
I have experienced the same thing, I just moved and the gym here in anchorage is sooooooooooooooooooooooo weird.
No one spots each other, people look at you weird when you ask for a spot, and for the most part are completely oblivious to each other. People jump in line on problems or climb through a problem when someone is starting to go.
I find it very disturbing especially comming from a very close knit climbing community in Salt Lake, who knows but I feel your pain
ben
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apollodorus
Apr 20, 2002, 10:26 PM
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ClimbChick, YOU are at the top of the hierarchy, because you are a HOTTEE! That's why everybody's so nice to you.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-04-20 15:28 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Apr 20, 2002, 11:55 PM
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Redzit: Seeing as you are from Toronto, I would then only assume that you usually train at Joe Rockheads. If you don't train there however, I think that my comments here will still apply.
I have been to gyms all over (including Joe Rockheads) and the people at each of these places, people whom I have never met, or even seen in my entire life giving me friendly, useful, advice. I was once sequencing out a problem in the bouldering area, where a young man (older than me of course) described how if I would use a drop-knee, that I would easily send the problem. I used the drop-knee and it worked.
In other words, it is extremely rare that I have encountered someone who I would find to be rude in a climbing gym.
As for finding out what the turning point is, or where the Higher Archy begins, I would probably say that for indoor climbing, it would start at around 11a as you mentioned earlier.
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jmlangford
Apr 21, 2002, 12:07 AM
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Redzit...I am really sorry to hear about your experience. I wish I could go climbing with you and show you how cool us OLDER climbers are. You climb 5.11? I could learn something from you! Too many climbers think that it makes them better in the eyes of their peers if they can put someone else's abilities down. That sucks!! Just climb for the fun of it and screw those people that act cliquish!(sp?)Try to keep a good attitude and you will eventually meet a good partner. People that create dividing lines based on ability, type of climbing, or popularity are losers. To steal a line from rrradam....
IT'S ALL CLIMBING BRUTHA!!!
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-04-20 21:13 ]
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kriso9tails
Apr 21, 2002, 3:17 AM
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I never minded the hierarchies so long as these elite climbers could back up their spray. Oddly, most of the climbers that I've met that are much better than me were very modest. some of them had quite abit to brag about too, but they didn't.
I find that most of the great braggards can't even cliumb as well as me, and I haven't even onsighted a 12d for over a month (just kidding). I don't consider myself a good climber so when people who can't even climb as well as me start up with the massive ego I just have to laugh... and then school them.
everybody should be proud of what the climb however they measure that (grade, altitude, fun, location, spirituality, etc...), but the arrogance gets a little trying at times. My home gym is moderate for this, I know I can be a little annoying a times (no cracks from Grav. climbers), but as ageist as this sounds i find that the twenty-five to thirty-five age group is the worst. Not so much with grades, but there's a couple who are just so convinced that they know everything about climbing, and everything about life I just want to strangle them, but my parole officer says that I'll go to prison if I try that again... er... yeah.
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climbchick
Apr 21, 2002, 4:09 AM
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ROFL, Appollodorus! Kewl, I've never been at the top of a hierarchy before, does this mean I get to stomp around spraying at everybody about my latest death-defying 5.9?
Seriously, though, I agree completely with what Kriso9Tails said -- people who feel a great need to bellow about their achievements are usually trying to cover up some massive insecurities in other areas. People who KNOW deep down that they're OK seldom feel the need to broadcast this information to the rest of the world.
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jmlangford
Apr 21, 2002, 4:19 AM
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I agree with climbchick and kriso...people that are always correcting others in front of people...or on this site for that matter...are in the same category. Sometimes, if the mistake isn't going to kill or hurt anybody, then you need to let it go and maybe talk to that person in private. This kind of goes along with people thinking they are so darn smart and all-knowing. I was guilty of criticizing someone for a couple of things and when it was explained to me where that person was coming from...I felt bad. Ahemmmm...remember redzit? Sorry bro! Hang in there and if you get out my way I'll take you climbing anytime!
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andy_lemon
Apr 21, 2002, 11:33 PM
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Jody: I agree with you... except if someone is posting beta on the internet acting like they know what they are talking about and actually havn't done the task then it is obvious. Where as, in the gym... only DK-heads rain down upon someone who knows less. There is not much injury that can come from climbing indoors and if you don't know the material then you won't be spraying beta (as on the internet).
The gym should be treated as fun or a training ground. Spray is common at gyms and should not be mis-interpruted as the "climbing higherarchy"... For example: A person who climbs 5.6 but travels has been asked by the local 5.13 climber about the best camping at a destination. The 5.6 climber is not the climbing higherarchy nor is the 5.13 climber. This is just called "community".
Andy...
p.s. great discussion.
[ This Message was edited by: andy_lemon on 2002-04-21 16:38 ]
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camhead
Apr 22, 2002, 1:16 AM
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Dude, numbers have nothing to do with "the hierarchy". I've known assholes that 'talk down' to me that climb at all levels.
Right now I am sport climbing a lot with a good bunch of dudes that I met at the gym, all of whom climb in the .13a range. Despite this, I have never once been intimidated by them.
For the most part, I have found that assholes are simply insecure with themselves.
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metoliusmunchkin
Apr 22, 2002, 1:31 AM
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Redzit: Seeing as you are from Toronto, I would then only assume that you usually train at Joe Rockheads. If you don't train there however, I think that my comments here will still apply.
I have been to gyms all over (including Joe Rockheads) and the people at each of these places, people whom I have never met, or even seen in my entire life giving me friendly, useful, advice. I was once sequencing out a problem in the bouldering area, where a young man (older than me of course) described how if I would use a drop-knee, that I would easily send the problem. I used the drop-knee and it worked.
In other words, it is extremely rare that I have encountered someone who I would find to be rude in a climbing gym.
As for finding out what the turning point is, or where the Higher Archy begins, I would probably say that for indoor climbing, it would start at around 11a as you mentioned earlier.
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crux_clipper
Apr 22, 2002, 11:54 AM
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When i'm training indoors, climbers that climb at a lower level, generally are keen to chat and talk about routes. However, being 16, many climbers my age, who climb at a higher level, tend to shun me off, wanting to climb with the older guys.
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passthepitonspete
Apr 22, 2002, 12:43 PM
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It is easy to find me in the gym hierarchy - I am always directly on the bottom.
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phil_nev
Apr 22, 2002, 1:35 PM
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theres a group of climbers at my gym who can really crank... i mean they are very solid climbers and spend the vast majority of thier time bouldering caus they have ticked most of the stuff in the gym. I have only been climbing for 4 months, when i first started, i tried to make conversation with them numerous times but was shuned off. I have been lucky enough to improve my climbing immensly since then. Recently the head honcho of this group was trying this new boulder problem and couldnt get it. Just for fun i thought id give it a burl. I got it seccond try. Since then they talk to me all the time and have asked me to join them for their regulkar bouldering sessions. I really dont like the idea that the only reason they speak to me is caus i can climb. I make an effort to talk to any1 and every1 i can, male, female, big small, whatever..... i think these people can be a bit full of thyemselves.... who knows, they might be kewl and i may have missunderstood what has happened.... only time will telll....
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treyr
Apr 22, 2002, 1:47 PM
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i hate that!!!
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redzit
Apr 22, 2002, 9:53 PM
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hey guys' and irls
I'm glad to see i'm not alone. that makes me feel better. i've been thinking and playing devils advocate and maybe people just are affraid of being labeled as rude. maybe someone they might try to help could be really frustaited (sp?) and cold blow up at them.
and Phil, Join that group and maybe try to break their habits from the inside, where they're week, and valnerable, and...oh, anyways.
what are your thoughts dudes on this rudeness possiblilty, what would happen if someone offered you help? i think i would be happy
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chitterz
Apr 22, 2002, 11:54 PM
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(This is a little different from redzit's orginal idea because the difference in abilities is probably much greater than in most of your cases, but I felt like speaking up from the side of the elitist jackasses.)
I've been in two situations where I was with a weaker climber that I really wanted to get up a route, but couldn't think of anything to say to them that would help them. Each one was stuck at a move that I would dance past, but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't think of any trick or move that would get them farther. And to make matters worse, I didn't want to come across as rude and elitist by spouting every idea that came to my head (most of the ideas wouldn't have worked anyway.) All I felt I could do was watch and try to encourage (which I'm not good at).
Meanwhile, I know that if I were with a climber of closer strength, I would tell them ideas that came to my head because they would be more likely to help the climber out. I would still worry about coming off as rude, but since I would probably actually help them I feel better about trying.
I don't think I belong to any higher archy. I haven't broken the 5.11 border (though I think I could...). And I don't think I'm elitist, because I really wanted those two above people to succeed even though they were weaker than me. I just didn't know what to say to them.
In short: Their silence isn't necessarily (sp?) snubbing you. Some of us just aren't very good at giving advice to people different from us.
[ This Message was edited by: chitterz on 2002-04-22 16:56 ]
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phil_nev
Apr 25, 2002, 10:55 AM
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Good idea redzit, i will dissmantle them from inside and turn them into good decent honest climbers!!
[ This Message was edited by: phil_nev on 2002-04-25 04:00 ]
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astone
Apr 25, 2002, 1:18 PM
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This sounds like a good reason to get the hell out of the gym!
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howitzer
Apr 25, 2002, 2:09 PM
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Amen astone! I agree! I almost became a member at sportrock here in alexandria, but when I went a few times and saw how things were, I quickly decided against it --and I used to work in a gym in North Carolina. I'd rather just lift some weights when it's raining then put up with some of the egos abounding. I see it more here (at the gym) than other places I have climbed - and I see it happen on rc.com too. But oh well, people will be people. That's why I own a dog.
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legsforarms
Apr 25, 2002, 2:45 PM
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I hate to change the tone of this thread, but I feel like I may have another response to this question.
Many of the elite climbers who develop a reputation of “ignoring” the climbers at their chosen training spot have arrived at their level of climbing through focused hard work. I don’t understand why an elite climber doing their own thing - is an asshole, while the person who comes into a gym for the first time and speaks to no one – is a victim.
Most climbers who take the initiative, and who approach, a person that has the know-how are received kindly. It isn’t the job of any elite climber to approach the people in the gym and offer theeir friendship and advice. The hard work and time it takes to get to their level - also established strong bonds within a group of high-end climbers. Think about your circle of friends, how often do you go out of your way to grab the shy person in the corner and mentor them..?
Reflect on this for a little while. If you are intimidated – it’s your job to ameliorate the tension, for the other person probably knows nothing of it.
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