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robmcc
Jun 2, 2004, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: the door has been opened for bolt clippers to say how they enjoy "taking the sharp end" and how they "get no rush" from toprope.
You think they needed the door opened? They already say that.
Rob
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climber15
Jun 2, 2004, 2:43 PM
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agreed
i have one friend in particular who loves climbing, top roaping or leading. Hees just now learning how to lead well and climbes every lead route he can get his hands on (pardon the pun). Leading is more exposed, more of a fall, but safe if not more safe than top roaping. I personally prefer leading over toproaping becuase im relying on all the bolts and gear ive put in rather than an anchor that often times i cant see. Taking a big fall in leading is something you have to do to get used to it, but beyond that leading is the best thing about climbing (i beleive).
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andy_reagan
Jun 2, 2004, 2:45 PM
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I prefer bouldering. :lol:
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robmcc
Jun 2, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: Leading is more exposed, more of a fall, but safe if not more safe than top roaping.
It is definitely not safer than top roping. You have significantly more energy and reliance on one piece of gear at a time (your top placement or bolt). I assume you're talking about sport climbing, so your top piece is generally pretty bomber, but I can't imagine how that's safer than virtually no fall on an anchor that is generally composed of 2 or more bomber, often equalized, pieces.
Rob
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mcfoley
Jun 2, 2004, 4:05 PM
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Each has it's place, for every climber, at every level.
-mf
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dirtineye
Jun 2, 2004, 4:11 PM
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I'd rather lead for several reasons.
First, in severe overhangs or even mild overhangs, on TR you have to fight the Top rope very often. Especially on top belay the belayer can't see you and often can't hear you and it gets very frustrating when he is pulling you off the climb hahaha. PLus, on overhangs if you come off it is very hard or impossible to get back on the climb.
One funny reason for prefering leading is that, if you fall or TR, your friends will laugh at you.
One not so funny thing about top roping is that on lowering off ( and this is true of any type of climbing) you are totally dependent on the belayer, and if he fecks up you are screwed.
One other not so funny thing is that in TR, like in rapelling, you are dependent on the anchor totally. I'd tather depend on a string of gear under me that I placed as opposed to one anchor up top that someone else built.
I have no problem with TR as long as you don't fool yourself into thinking it is any sort of prep for leading whatsoever. Even if you wire all the moves on TR, a lead is not like the TR in most cases.
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rocdaug
Jun 2, 2004, 4:19 PM
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Leading is definately a different sensation that TRing. It's nice not to have the rope slap you in the face every once in a while... but having the rope there all the time is easier on the mental part of the game.
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climberpunk
Jun 2, 2004, 4:28 PM
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I prefer leading, theres an added rush on top of the thrill of simply climbing. However, on TR you can climb past your limit without safety worries. And its pretty easy to avoid hangdogging, just have your belayer keep a few feet of slack out. In my view, its kind of absurd to claim that one form is inherently more or less pure than another. Whatever floats your boat is the main part. The only reason anyone climbs is personal gratification and enjoyment, its weird to most ppl anyways, so dont worry about what people in the sport think.
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solo
Jun 3, 2004, 7:57 AM
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In reply to: If you climb a route under your own steam, without either falling or weighting the rope, you have climbed it. The energy and effort would be equal.
Sure, but how do you get the rope up there? :wink:
My personal climbing goals are such, that I allways have to ask - if this was in the middle of a multipitch route, would I be able to get through? And if I climbed the route on top rope, the answer would be obvious. No.
In reply to: It is sad to see ego gratification replacing respect for those who climb whatever (see the recent thread on bouldering being more cool ....).
I hope this was a general remark (with wich I agree completely), because I definitely did not want to imply that those who top rope does not deserve respect for their personal accomplishments.
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overlord
Jun 3, 2004, 8:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I definitely prefer leading. In fact, climbing equals leading in my book. Top rope is good for rehearsing hard routes but I do not fool myself I "climbed" a route on top rope. It was mearly practicing the moves. If you climb a route under your own steam, without either falling or weighting the rope, you have climbed it. The energy and effort would be equal. The difference is in the adrenaline, the rush. Knowing that you can grease and not take a whipper is undeniably different. Both are climbing and up to the individual as to their style, preference, and experience. It is sad to see ego gratification replacing respect for those who climb whatever (see the recent thread on bouldering being more cool ....).
actually the energy isnt equal. even for sport climbs. if youre on TR, you only need to do the moves, but if you lead it, you need to climb to a good clipping stance (if youre lucky enough to have one), take the draw from your belt, clip it to the bolt and then clip the rope, while holding with just one hand (unless on hte rare occasions when you dont ahve to hold yourself, like on a ledge) and do the same moves than on TR. and if all this is just slightly overhanging and the holds are a bit bad and the belayer gives slack a bit slow, after a few such clips youre gonn be much more pumped than youd be on a TR.
and now lets move to trad. you have to find a good pro placement, then take the appropriate piece off your rack, correctly insert it, make sure it doesnt walk, maybe even euqlize it and then clim the rope. it takes even more time and energy than sport leading.
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curt
Jun 3, 2004, 8:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I definitely prefer leading. In fact, climbing equals leading in my book. Top rope is good for rehearsing hard routes but I do not fool myself I "climbed" a route on top rope. It was mearly practicing the moves. If you climb a route under your own steam, without either falling or weighting the rope, you have climbed it. The energy and effort would be equal. The difference is in the adrenaline, the rush. Knowing that you can grease and not take a whipper is undeniably different. Both are climbing and up to the individual as to their style, preference, and experience. It is sad to see ego gratification replacing respect for those who climb whatever (see the recent thread on bouldering being more cool ....). actually the energy isnt equal. even for sport climbs. if youre on TR, you only need to do the moves, but if you lead it, you need to climb to a good clipping stance (if youre lucky enough to have one), take the draw from your belt, clip it to the bolt and then clip the rope, while holding with just one hand (unless on hte rare occasions when you dont ahve to hold yourself, like on a ledge) and do the same moves than on TR. and if all this is just slightly overhanging and the holds are a bit bad and the belayer gives slack a bit slow, after a few such clips youre gonn be much more pumped than youd be on a TR. and now lets move to trad. you have to find a good pro placement, then take the appropriate piece off your rack, correctly insert it, make sure it doesnt walk, maybe even euqlize it and then clim the rope. it takes even more time and energy than sport leading.
Why don't you just free solo everything then? Its so much easier than leading, by your definition. After all, all you have to do is the moves.
Curt
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overlord
Jun 3, 2004, 8:29 AM
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free solo is a totally different game. you can fall on TR, on a sport route, even on most trad routes, but if you fall on a free solo, youre most likely screwed. unless offcourse you fall on the opening moves (and if you do, what the hell are you doing soloing the rotue)???
im not saying that TR isnt a clean ascent. im just saying that it takes more energy to lead. and most climbers say that they climbed a route only if they have lead it.
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metrogroaz
Jun 3, 2004, 9:19 AM
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As someone who has recently taken the "sharp end of the rope" a few times i can say that leading is more of a climb than TR'n. The thing i noticed is when I TR i usually take time to notice the "exposure(as much as ive had as a 3 pitch climber)" (considering im on sport climbs mostly). When i lead i focus more on the climb and only have consideration for the top/("exposure") when im hanging at the anchor. But I defintely have way more respect for my partner who leads the trad climbs ive been on, that is really climbing, sport leading is great, but when i watch him and hear him grunt when he is sketched i realize i still need more practice. He can climb .11+'s in the gym but he can lead .10d's redpoint. Leading is a differentr type of climbing, but in actuality it is climbing, I no longer call TR'n a route sendin it, Only when i send it on lead will it be named for me! However i love TR'n cuz it is the best way to learn/get into climbing.
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xclimber
Jun 3, 2004, 12:54 PM
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If you don't lead you haven't really climbed...
x
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dirtineye
Jun 3, 2004, 1:10 PM
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In reply to: If you don't lead you haven't really climbed... x
Yes you have, but you have not experienced all that climbing has to offer.
Curt, yes free soloing is much 'easier' than even top roping, but as I almost fell off one this past weekend, I'm not sure if it is truly "easier".
For anyone who cares, and this has been staetd in this thread and others, Top Roping does NOT prepare you to lead. The only way you could attempt get the lead aspect wired while using a top rope is to carry the gear and place it as if you were leading, without weighting the top rope. This will include two aspects that mere top roping will not:
1) When leading you weigh more. H3LL yes this makes a difference.
2) When leading you have to balance and or hang on three and select, place, test and clip with one.
You still will not have a full appreciation of the falling consequences. And I found that while top roping as prep for a lead, I would see all kinds of potential gear placements that looked terrible and unworthy when I was actually going to depend on them for my life.
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xclimber
Jun 3, 2004, 1:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you don't lead you haven't really climbed... x Yes you have, but you have not experienced all that climbing has to offer.
Semantic difference... not substantive...
x
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wormly81
Jun 3, 2004, 1:51 PM
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When you first start climbing , just being 60 feet off the ground is enough to get every drop of adrenaline into your bloodstream. After not so long you realize you have the skills to repeat this feat many times in a relatively safe way. At this point you are able to break through the initial mental hurdles of rock climbing and realize that instead of solely focusing on your saftely while climbing on a top rope (please focus on that before you climb), you can focus on making the easiest, most fluid move up and around the crux of your climb. This is one of the great feelings that rock climbing affords its young students. Fear is overcome by confidence and capability and a sense of flow is achieved .
Personally, it has not been so long since I have moved through this first step in becoming a competent climber. The development of flow on the rock was thrilling and one of the most rewarding things I have ever experienced. Its like walking into a calculus exam after missing a couple weeks of class and just kicking its ass! :)
After recently completing my first sport lead, I realized something about toproping that made sense to ME. Although it is undoubtably the most important tool in getting aquainted to the mechanics of rock climbing , top roping is just one small piece of what rock climbing has to offer those who have the motivation to go further.
So I leave this question up to you and you alone. Do you want to cash in your chips after achieving flow on a top rope, or do you want to up the ante and see what your made of?
Jeff
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allan_thomson
Jun 3, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: the door has been opened for bolt clippers to say how they enjoy "taking the sharp end" and how they "get no rush" from toprope. |
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muncher
Jun 3, 2004, 10:29 PM
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For me, one of the most appealing things about climbing is the mental game, top roping removes most of that, and besides, it's fun taking whippers. The more you fall the more comfortable you become with it. After all what is the point of buying and placing all that expensive gear if you are too afraid to trust it? Obviously there are times when you shouldn't/can't fall, these are the situations that really force you to focus, remain calm, use all of your experience to get out of and in the end offer so much more of a reward.
Not that there is anything wrong with a little top roping here and there but generally, once you can lead, you are better off sticking with it even if it means lowering the grade you have been top roping. Whatever floats you boat though.
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willywilderness
Jun 3, 2004, 10:41 PM
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You need to recognize that both (TR'ing and leading) have their own unique benifit to becoming a better climber. Keep in mind that their are 3 main areas of skill you need to develop to become a good climber, the physical, mental and technical. If you ignore any of the three in your training regimen then you will probably not achieve the level you aspire to.
I like to use toproping to concentrate on honing my physical and technical skill. On toprope you can generally climb more strenuous routes which should increase your gripping and overall strength. Performing laps and downclimbing the route can lead to tangible strength gains. Also, the luxury of trying new footwork movement and various grip holds is easier on toprope.
I find that leading primarily focuses on my mental development. Obviously, leading challenges a climber to become focused on various skills such as relaxation, breathing, routefinding, stances, etc. I like leading becaus it also touches the technical challenges of footwork, gear sizing and placement, etc.
So, my advice is to concentrate on both. You will develop into an overall better climber in the end.
Most of all, just have fun with it!
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hellsbells
Jun 3, 2004, 10:54 PM
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leading is climbing and climbing is leading. top roping is for practice just like gyms
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slablizard
Jun 3, 2004, 11:02 PM
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TR is useful to improve your limit. TR for fun or for training , that is generally 2 grades above your lead grade. I use TR to do laps too, that is very good training too.
In reply to: leading is climbing and climbing is leading. top roping is for practice just like gyms |
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acrofobic
Jun 3, 2004, 11:20 PM
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What I have found is that many routes cannot be climbed without leading. Top roping may let you climb 10% of the routes in a particular grade, but you can lead 100% of the routes. Joshua tree or Williamson is not nearly as much fun if you can only climb routes you can easily setup for toprope. The setup time for a toprope without bolts is about 30 minutes for a serene anchor with the walk up and the rap back down to be gin the climb. To lead you walk up to the route, tie in place pro and begin climbing. I can lead twice as many routes in a day vs setting up top ropes.
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gds
Jun 3, 2004, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: Top roping may let you climb 10% of the routes in a particular grade, but you can lead 100% of the routes.
There are still some proud TR only routes out there. Mostly unprotectable routes in areas where the local ethic discourages bolting. So, you can't lead quite 100% of the routes. Well, OK you can lead them if you are up for a hard free solo.
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