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dsafanda
Apr 26, 2002, 7:12 PM
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The original post clearly states...
"We have bolted new routes in such a way that they can be climbed by both sport and trad."
That sure sounds like your drilling holes next to gear placements.
In any event, if you really think that doing a FA gives you the license to develop the route in whatever style you want with out answering to anyone then I don't understand why you posted the question in the first place.
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metoliusmunchkin
Apr 26, 2002, 8:21 PM
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I would think that there would in fact be some biasses when it comes to the particular types of climbing that climbers exercise. There will always be biassed remarks when considering any opinion expressed by an individual. An instance would be every singly 1-800 commercials on the television - each and every one of the opinions expressed by those fast-talking, shady, salesmen is biassed. Of course their product is the best, because it is their product that they are attempting to sell.
The same goes for climbing. Whichever climbing form you aspire to, in your own mind, that will be the best. Why else would you have chosen to pursue that particular form of climbing if you never really truly liked it? It makes no sense, of course one would boast when describing their climbing idiosyncrasies.
These men seem petty, and childish in my opinion. Why would anyone wish to shove (and yes, it seems - from your description of these situations - that they wish to shove their opinions at you in such a way that they will soon become your own; in their hopes) their idealistic opinions at you. You like to climb sport, they like to climb trad; it's as simple as that in itself.
At first glance, I immediately thought that this was a story of the classic rivalry between the Trads and the Sports, and even upon further inspection, came to the same conclusion. The classic Trads vs. Sports have been going on since the beginning of climbing itself - a rivalry as old as Greecers vs. Soces, and Sharks vs. Jets. And you know what? It doesn't even matter.
Stick to your guns, compete with yourself, and climb.
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blacksamba
Apr 26, 2002, 9:49 PM
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All of ELDO's hardman routes can be described as being 30% or less protectable, thats what makes then HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you wanted a mixed route fine, I/ve climbed mixed routes and they are okay.
But... if you bolted a crack for the sake of having sport climbers being able to climb it i dont see the point.
The whole issue of whether you have balls or not is the issue here. The route by your descriptions sounds like it could have been a classic test piece one which showed your keen ability to overcome the fear of failure by not placing bolts in blank but climbable spots. Pete and Addiroids are saying you didnt have the ability to climb the route in this bold style, you may have climbed it, but it wasnt in the purest way.
There is always the option to not clip the bolt and in doing so make the statement of boldness, but it is somewhat a moot point, the bolt is there as a psychological bail out.
We can all get along to the extent that we agree climbing is a worthwhile pursuit and that each discipline has its advantages and disadvantages, but if you want trad climbers to complacently accept routes which do not challange them as trad climber and treats them as sportclimbers with cams, I dont see a resolution that favors you.
ben
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verticallaw
Apr 26, 2002, 10:27 PM
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yes the route is very mixed. The particular one in question is both finger crack and face climbing. The bolts that have been placed are placed on the FACE climbing portion and the runouts for sport are past the gear placment spots. so to summ it up if you mix climb it will be a nice climb if you trad climb you will run out over the face portion and rely on the gear waaayy below you if you sport climb that your run outs are over the crack system itself. fun for everyone that was the goal. Even if the goal of giving a route to everyone is un accompishable if feel as though I tried to please all climbers in my effort obviously there are some of us how cannot be pleased oh well I'll remeber that for next time
Chow
Mike
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robscate
Apr 26, 2002, 10:30 PM
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Hmmmm this arguement reminds me of a local climb in ogden canyon called "nuts AND bolts" as in, "the only safe way to climb this is with trad and sport gear. I know of 3 "sport" climber who thought they had stones big enough to climb with only draws. 1 has a broken arm, 1 has a broken ankle and the other seperated his knee.
seems like people in ogden found a way of getting along....
Rob c
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ravens_wing_jim
May 1, 2002, 6:22 PM
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Addiroids,
Pull yer balls outa yer moms what?
Dude!
I prefure sport, because I prefure face
climbing to crack climbing.
Get it?
Crack=trad face=sport.
Dude, for all the insults you just spit out
at every sport climber out there by saying
what you did,
I would love to see you trad up a friction
face climb hero.
Where ya gonna place gear,
when theres no place to place it?
Sorry man, but I think your comments
were way out of line.
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wigglestick
May 1, 2002, 6:52 PM
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Jim- I think Addiroids and most reasonable trad climbers will not have any problem with bolts being placed on unprotectable faces. I know I have clipped my fair share of bolts. What he and most others are against is drilling a bolt every 9 feet up a perfectly good crack because you lack the commitment and requisite experience required to climb the crack with trad gear. Granted there is a huge gray area there regarding what is protectable and what needs to be bolted. Conflicts like this are nothing new. Maybe there could be some sort of Cage Match to settle all the disputes. The fight card could include
Trad climbers vs. Sport Climbers
Mtn Bikers vs. Road Bikers
Skateboarders vs. Inline Skaters
Surfers vs. Boogie Boarders
Harley Riders vs. Crotch Rocket Riders
Ford vs. Chevy
Men vs. Women
etc.
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ravens_wing_jim
May 1, 2002, 7:11 PM
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wigglestick,
Dude I totally agree with you,
only an idiot would bolt a crack climb.
I just didnt think that the insults
that seem to be directed towards
sport climbing were called for.
Sport climbing is all about face climbing,
no more, no less.
If someone bolted a trad route,
I too would be pissed.
But there is no reason to start slinging
insults towards one form of climbing
or another.
Rock on!
Jim.
[ This Message was edited by: ravens_wing_jim on 2002-05-01 12:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ravens_wing_jim on 2002-05-01 12:16 ]
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sharmagod
May 1, 2002, 7:15 PM
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A lot of people have egos when it comes to climbing.Some people just dont let on about it.All I can say is to just have fun climbing and satisfy yourself.Nothing Else matters!!!
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upfreak
May 9, 2002, 6:19 AM
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Im a sport climber and a boulderer... i wana learn trad, aid and ice.
But i see that a point has been proven in this thread...
Why can't we all just get along? Sad really.
Its true that we all have our own styles, preference and ethcis. BUt lets all compromise shall we? The next time if we meet up with people who climb a different stlye, why don't we just be sensitive and not insult each other?
After all ITS ALL CLIMBING BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
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spank_spank
May 9, 2002, 6:08 PM
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Why do trad climbers get their panties in a wad if you mention bolting a crack? You don't have to use the bolts. Let more people enjoy the climb by bolting it. You can still use your precious gear. I am not going to get upset if you want to use a piece of gear on a sport route.
Bolts are your friends!
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wigglestick
May 9, 2002, 6:23 PM
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Spank_Spank- Imagine that some rich developer decides to build a Gondola to the top of Mt Everest. Would that bother you? Why? You could still risk your life and climb it the "traditional" way. But why would you want to when any yahoo with 10 bucks could get a ride to the top of the world?
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wigglestick
May 9, 2002, 6:28 PM
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Or how about I bolt big jugs onto your 5.13 route in order to make it a 5.8. You could always not use those holds and my addition to the route will make it more accessible to other people who aren't as strong. Would that bother you?
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atg200
May 9, 2002, 7:26 PM
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// Crack=trad face=sport
Wrong!
The Gunks is all face climbing, and has very very few bolts(and great protection).
Eldo is mostly face climbing, and has very few bolts(some routes are very well protected, some aren't).
Lots of places in the southeast are mostly face climbing, and have very good gear.
As far as climbing a friction slab without bolts - been there, done that. That is pretty much what the old Tuolomne, Yosemite, and BH Needles face routes are all about. I love these types of climbs.
I think the reason the original poster got ripped to shreds is you didn't make at all clear how you bolted the route. I have no problem at all with mixed routes, and I am a typical frothing at the mouth bolt chopping trad climber. I just hate to see bolts next to *good* gear placements.
Spank spank - incredibly lame. Aspiring to do a route safely with the least amount of hardware left behind is a worthy goal. Its not like there aren't already thousands of sport routes - why bolt unnecessary features?
Plenty of places allow for both sport and trad. Eldo has sport routes, Boulder Canyon has both, even Lumpy Ridge and Vedauwoo have sport routes. Generally it is just the sport areas where people don't really care about which style is more appropriate for the rock, and bolt easily protected routes anyway. Most trad areas that have little or no sport climbing are that way because there is no need for them(Indian Creek - hard to climb anything aside from the cracks), or because the land managers have decided that no more bolts shall be placed(the Gunks, Flatirons, etc.) I think sport climbers should be more accepting of trad routes, and not feel the need to spray bolts on protectable routes at every "sport area"(disregarding of course that people climbed at many of these "sport areas" well before any bolted lines were put up).
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spank_spank
May 9, 2002, 7:39 PM
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Seriously guys, you all are way to uptight!. I was just being an ass. If I really want to do a crack climb one of three things can happen. I would set it up on a TR or I would have somebody more experience place the gear and I would be able to lead it that way. The last way is that I would nut up, grab a rack, and do it myself.
Lighten up folks.
[ This Message was edited by: spank_spank on 2002-05-09 12:49 ]
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theamish
May 9, 2002, 8:19 PM
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Speaking of balls, which worries me that so many male climbers seem to preoccupied with them. Have any of you noticed his thread was not about ethics. This guy is the owner of this property, which seemed to have eluded most of you. It seems to me you have overstepped your bounds (perhaps your balls got in the way of your vision) by spewing what he could or couldn't do with his land. Did any of you notice this was about to be an access area made available to climbers and you succesfully got it shut down before it was even opened. Did you people get on those soap boxes by trad or sport ?? (that was a joke, I really don't give a rat's ass because I'm going climbing and I'll be enjoying myself with whatever method I choose at the moment, as you all should do.
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stewbabby
May 9, 2002, 8:29 PM
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not to stir the fire any more than it already is, but when was it decided that an fa gives that person all authority on the route. sure pick the name, tell us the grade, whatever. bu tdoes this really give jonny no nuts the right to bolt a perfect crack just because he found it and did it on tr before anyone else. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON ANYONE. im just really wondering if i am the only one questioning this "fa god" syndrome that seems to be catching. i agree if it was sent as a trad line leave it that way. and if its unprotectable and if you send it drilling bolts i will leave it that way. but just because i do a route first on tr and rap bolt a route doesnt make it right. just because i did it first doesnt mean that it is right.
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verticallaw
May 9, 2002, 9:01 PM
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this has got real big GOOD!!. As the original poster I feel the need to thank the people who saw (past there balls) some of my points. I would like to mention that those who sprayed their crap at me have never seen the route. I can say that as a fact and will gladly wave the flag that if anyone wants to see and/or climb this beautiful chunk of hevan they will be with me or be wasting their time. Yes I FA'd the route, I do not belive that I am god (by the way it was not top roped as it is 12 pitch route... bring me a rope that long and I will tr it). The access issue regarding this route is still in my athority to open it or not. My intention was simple I was NOT looking for the O.K to bolt the route, I was testing the water to see if the idea of a multi use crag was feesible. I apperciate all your comments and do not feel shredded at all. Adderoids comments helped me see (and I realise that not all trad climbers are like this ) that some people do not want to get along.. They would rather spout crap than have fun and enjoy a wonderfull climb. Yes he attacked me personally but he had the guts to make his opinion known, yes some people have very poor comunication but I will not let that deter me from my goal of finding a common ground for all of us to play on. We all face access issues and we all loose crags because of peoples actions and attitudes. This affects us all and we all should be concerned. As climbers we are all grouped together in the view of society, If we are to keep areas open and stop the "chair lift to the top of everest" as mentioned before we will all need to put our own differances aside and work as a team. This is not a unrealistic goal but it is one that will only be obtained when people (like adderoids) learn that opinions are wonderfull and powerfull things and there are ways of making a point that will not piss off the entire community. I applaud all of you for you sincerity in responding to this forum
Thanks
Mike
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stewbabby
May 9, 2002, 9:08 PM
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mike, i wasnt pointing fingers. i wasnt ever refering to you. i guess i should have started a new thread. i had just seen several people in this thread talking about how the fa has the final authority on what happens to a route. i just dissagree and thought i would ask. sorry if you took it the wrong way. i will start a seperate thread to ask my question.
stewart
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sezumpf
May 9, 2002, 10:16 PM
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I'm really not trying to attack anyone here at all so don't get me wrong verticallaw but I just wanted to point out some inconsistencies in your posts. You stated earlier that you found the crag via a flight over the coast then established a new route up the rock:
"We plotted it on GPS and when we where in town we spoke to all the appropriate people ie:guides, guide book authers, access club, etc. to ensure that this crag had not been accomplished before. As well it took us a full day drive and a 4 day hike to reach the base. If any one was there before they left no trace..."
You later state:
"There are aprox 12 route at this location aprox 75% of them can be climbed trad. We bolted this one in a attempt to show trad climbers and sport climbers that we can all use the same area we left the other routes clean (and hidden). This was done out of kindness and a hope that we could establish a crag where WE ALL FEEL WELCOME!!! I see now that this is not possible. The only people with legal access to the land that this crag is on is myself and my partners."
I have a few questions for you.
1) Why are you the only ones with legal access to the crag?
2) Is it on private land or public land?
If public, then your above statement doesn't make a lot of sense. I would think that if the government is going to let you climb it they will also let others climb the crag as well. Or am I missing something?
3) Did you establish all of the routes at this crag?
4) If so did you ascend all of them in one trip? Your post makes it sound like you drove for one day, hiked for 4 days then put up one route and walked out.
I'm really not posting to try to bash anyone here - just curious. I have some mixed feelings about this post. I love trad climbs and part of the magic with trad climbs is that it's not accessible to everyone. Imagine if the Diamond on Longs were bolted all the way up. It gets packed up there as it is I couldn't even imagine how bad it would get if it were all bolted. But I also enjoy TR (AKA leading sport) because it is a bit safer to take a fall. Thus you don't have to stress out trying to place gear. Just my 2 cents.
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addiroids
May 10, 2002, 7:13 AM
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Okay there Mikey,
You are a moron twice. This is much worse than only being a moron once which is what I aspire to be. This basis has nothing to do with the physical act of bolting your route. It is all in how you described it. Let me explain:
1) In your post you said that you bolted this route so that both trad and sport climbers could climb it in their respective style. This, my friend, is a complete oxymoron (there's your first one buddy). If you placed a bolt after the cracks ran out (and it was a long way to the next crack), then you adequately protected a trad line. Sure, it may have not been the best style (how close were the bolts to the last placements on each crack system??), but that's how you decided to do it. You may lose bollocks points, but that was your choice. And here's where the oxymoron comes in. You did NOT create a route that can be climbed by both trad and sport. Again, you adequately protected a trad line (someone called it a mixed route referring to bolts where there are no good placements).
2) You said that 75% of the route can be protected by trad gear. Are you a fvcking moron?!?! (Just an aside: For those of you keeping track, this is Moron #2) This TOTALLY contradicts your previous statement about the route being able to be climbed with bolts alone. This leaves only 25% of the route protected with bolts alone. Just for the sake of argument, (which you can see that I enjoy), let's say the route is a 5.10 and one of the 5.10 pitches is an entire crack system. Only a beautiful hard crack for 180 feet. Our friend, Sally the sport climber who also took the time to hike for FOUR DAYS but couldn't bring trad gear would have to solo that entire pitch. Sure there are bolts on other pitches, but this one is a crack, so (and rightfully so) you did not put any bolts near the crack. How does this follow that it can be climbed with sport pro only.
I would assume that being a man of law, you would catch these obvious contradictions. But I guess since I can't communicate well (isn't the posessive plural their not there??) you didn't understand any of this. I hope those of us schooled in a more ethical school of thought do understand. I usually don't engage in personal attacks, but you seem to be a close relative of newbieclimber.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
And by the way, may I cast my one vote now:
___X___ Ethics _______ Spandex
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wallhammer
May 10, 2002, 8:01 AM
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did you name your climbing area disneyland? this would be a good name for it because of the "magical route" described by the FA that keeps changing with every post. once you figure out what the hell you did and can communicate that fact in a detailed coherent manner without so many discrepencies then I will let you know if we can or cannot get along. Sub note. Ya that’s the ticket, I flew over with an airplane and mapped it with gps, ya, then I hiked in for four days and bolted a route that I want everyone to use. Ya, except they cant, ya that’s the ticket, its on private land owned by morgan fairchild my wife, ya that’s it. my wife morgan fairchild, except I had to divorce her, ya she wouldn’t put out, ya that’s it!
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joemor
May 10, 2002, 9:35 AM
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ya like lol
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hang_man
May 10, 2002, 12:37 PM
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world peace...
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spank_spank
May 10, 2002, 12:48 PM
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addiroids - Who died and made you God. You trad elitist Fvck. I send your crack and bolt it.
[ This Message was edited by: spank_spank on 2002-05-10 08:41 ]
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