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fadeux
Jun 9, 2004, 4:30 AM
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This may be a newb question, but i've been reading a lot of accident reports. and it seems a lot of people rappel off of their ropes. Wouldn't those all be easily fixed by tying a knot in the end of the rope? If so, why wouldn't a person do it? Lazieness? It just seems really stupid to me...
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esoteric1
Jun 9, 2004, 4:40 AM
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yeah, well, when youve had 10 or more raps, and you miss a station, i can see it happening
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fadeux
Jun 9, 2004, 4:42 AM
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but why not just get into the habbit? I just feel im missing something. Like even if 30 ft of rope is obviously laying on the ground, do it anyway, just as a habit.
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squish
Jun 9, 2004, 5:55 AM
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The most common reason I can think of is when it's windy and you're rappelling a featured face. Your ropes will get blown wayward, and the knots are pretty much guaranteed to get snagged somewhere around a corner, where you least want them.
As a general rule, knots are a Good Idea, but that doesn't mean they are always the best choice. Look up the post by Brutus about when to tie knots. It was recently re-posted in a best-of collection.
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wetrocks
Jun 9, 2004, 6:14 AM
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Rapping off a rope......SUCKS!!! I did it last fall (no pun intended) and today I finally was able to touch my hand to my shoulder again! I pretty much always tie knots on multi pitch routes, but I was on this single pitch and didn't bother. I'll save the details but the short of the long is that unexpected snow came in and I was pretty much bagged and hypothermic = mistake = whoops no more rope. It took a lot of little things to add up to this, no just one stupid mistake. I considered myself a very safe climber, but not everything can always be in your control. Now I always beep going through metal detectors :( .
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munckee
Jun 9, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: but why not just get into the habbit? I just feel im missing something. Like even if 30 ft of rope is obviously laying on the ground, do it anyway, just as a habit.
For the most part, you're right. It's easy and quick to tie a safety knot. Just use common sense and what experience you have to determine the occassional instances where a knot might be more hurtful than helpful.
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gds
Jun 9, 2004, 5:09 PM
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Our rule is to always tie knots unless we :
1) know the rap well and know for sure the ropes reach the ground/next station
2) we can visually confirm that the ropes reach
3) someone else whom we trust at the next station/ground can confirm that the ropes reach
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nirvana
Jun 9, 2004, 5:13 PM
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Last two multi-pitches we tied knots--and sure enough, wind and featured faces added up to snags--in the second instance, we had to ditch the rope. Luckily, we'd trailed a third rope.
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sarcat
Jun 9, 2004, 5:40 PM
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The guy in Washington died in March off a 60' pitch with a 220' rope. If they had had knots he would not of. His error was assuming both ends were all the way down. Even on short sport routes I take the time to tie knots. Call me paranoid.
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gds
Jun 9, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: The guy in Washington died in March off a 60' pitch with a 220' rope. If they had had knots he would not of. His error was assuming both ends were all the way down. Even on short sport routes I take the time to tie knots. Call me paranoid.
Paranoia can be good!
That said, there are a number of ways to know if your rope ends are equal. So, if my middle mark is sitting at the anchor I'm not going to worry.
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crimpandgo
Jun 9, 2004, 5:53 PM
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I think most folks have the best of intentions and plan to practice safe techniques. many accidents are just due to laziness and aften happen to the "experts". Why? because they either get complacent because they do it so often, or they just don't think they need to worry about it. Wasn't it Lynn Hill that dropped off her figure 8 because she got involved in a jacket issue half way through tying the figure 8? I notice the more often I climb the greater chance this happens. You tend to spend less time with the details.
This idea is not specific to climbing. We do the same thing when we drive, etc. Your real cautious in the beginning, but after a while you get lazy until something happens, then you sharpen up again. Hopefully, that "something" doesn't end your life.
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redtail
Jun 9, 2004, 6:20 PM
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Knotting the ends is usually a good idea but can cause problems. I climbed the Maiden years ago and (of course) it started to rain on us just about the time we reached the top. So being prudent, we knotted the ends and did the overhanging rap. Went to pull the ropes for the 2nd rap and wouldn't you know, the one we needed to pull through the anchor jammed up on a flake 30 or 40 feet down the north face. By then it's raining hard so we pulled up as much as possible, cut the jammed part and still had enough for the 2nd rap to the ground. Wouldn't have been in such a hurry but lightning was hitting nearby and we didn't want to wait around and get fried. Coincidently, that climb was 15 years ago almost to the day. It was on the day of the Tianamen (sp?) Square massacre in Bejing. But back to the knotting subject, when in any doubt at all, it's usually best to knot your rap lines.
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thomaskeefer
Jun 9, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: This may be a newb question, but i've been reading a lot of accident reports. and it seems a lot of people rappel off of their ropes. Wouldn't those all be easily fixed by tying a knot in the end of the rope? If so, why wouldn't a person do it? Lazieness? It just seems really stupid to me...
Another question to add to the list is why people dont centermark their ropes or buy ropes that are bipattern or permanantly centermarked.. There have been million posts about how to centermark.
About the wind factor...
This is true but also easily alleviated...
I. Set your rap at the anchor and verify that the center mark is sitting right on the rap ring indicating that in fact the rope is threaded through to its midpoint leaving two equal length strands hanging below. Or better yet just always use a small diamter rap line. In this case, the knot holding the two ropes together will be at the rap ring.
II. Have your partner check the setup and, if you are using two ropes, check which of the ropes to pull when you both are at the next station
III. Tie knots in the ends of the two strands so you dont rap off the ends accidentally. (If it is that windy you are not going to hear someone below telling you that both ends are on the ground anyway)
IV. Thread your belay device and ask your partner to inspect your work and ensure that you are, in fact, correctly rigged to rap.
V. Stuff all the rope into your pack and cinch the drawstring down on the two strands. The two strands are now leaving your pack, running through your rap device and then to the anchor (this prevents you from losing some small stuff that may get mixed in with your rope as it leaves the pack)
VI. Do one last check and start down into the windy abyss.. the rope comes smoothly out of your pack as you go downand you are not having to rap without having knots in the ends or letting the wind take the ends and chancing a stuck rope...
VII. Dont forget to UNTIE the knot in the end that it going through the anchor point when you are pulling the ropes to set the next rap!!
BTW if you find the rope leaving your pack awkward, just clip your pack using a longish sling to your belay/rap loop so that it is hanging below you.. this makes it smoother... Just dont drop your pack!
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keithlester
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Jun 9, 2004, 6:50 PM
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Keefer, that was a measured informative sensible response from somebody who has obviously done the deed. Nice to see experience being turned into good advice, NewBs take note, you wont get better advice than that.
:P
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iamthewallress
Jun 9, 2004, 7:05 PM
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Knots are no substitute for awareness. Some mistakes you just should not be making if longevity is important to you. Period. Ever. Back ups are nice, but don't count on them. Knots hang up and knots come untied.
I prefer to not tie knots unless I know that I'm going to be getting near the end of my rope from the beginning. If I'm rapping in the dark (where I can't see the ends at a great distance), and I find that I'm a ways past the middle mark, I'll pull up the rope hanging below me and knot it after it's been tossed and is hanging plumb. I always assume that I may rap off the ends of my rope if I look away, so I'm always looking for the end before they sneak up on me. If you rap slowly with a back up of the rope wrapped around your leg, you'll feel the end on your leg before you feel it go through your hand. You should always see the end coming up before this happens though.
Another thing that my partner and I often do when rapping in the night is that the rope is fixed for the first person down. That way if one of the rope hangs up 75 feet above the point where the rope becomes tensioned and you discover the hangup, you can easily and more safely prussic back up the line to free it.
First person down gives a fireman's to the second whenever reasonable.
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sarcat
Jun 9, 2004, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The guy in Washington died in March off a 60' pitch with a 220' rope. If they had had knots he would not of. His error was assuming both ends were all the way down. Even on short sport routes I take the time to tie knots. Call me paranoid. Paranoia can be good! That said, there are a number of ways to know if your rope ends are equal. So, if my middle mark is sitting at the anchor I'm not going to worry.
The rope I just bought a month ago is a duo, 60m. Love it.
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squish
Jun 11, 2004, 3:15 AM
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In reply to: About the wind factor... This is true but also easily alleviated... I. Set your rap at the anchor and verify that the center mark is sitting right on the rap ring indicating that in fact the rope is threaded through to its midpoint leaving two equal length strands hanging below. Or better yet just always use a small diamter rap line. In this case, the knot holding the two ropes together will be at the rap ring. II. Have your partner check the setup and, if you are using two ropes, check which of the ropes to pull when you both are at the next station III. Tie knots in the ends of the two strands so you dont rap off the ends accidentally. (If it is that windy you are not going to hear someone below telling you that both ends are on the ground anyway) IV. Thread your belay device and ask your partner to inspect your work and ensure that you are, in fact, correctly rigged to rap. V. Stuff all the rope into your pack and cinch the drawstring down on the two strands. The two strands are now leaving your pack, running through your rap device and then to the anchor (this prevents you from losing some small stuff that may get mixed in with your rope as it leaves the pack) VI. Do one last check and start down into the windy abyss.. the rope comes smoothly out of your pack as you go downand you are not having to rap without having knots in the ends or letting the wind take the ends and chancing a stuck rope... VII. Dont forget to UNTIE the knot in the end that it going through the anchor point when you are pulling the ropes to set the next rap!!
I'm not knockin' your advice... It's very sound, but are you going to do this at every pitch while retreating from a storm? Sometimes the faster way is the safer way.
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afiveonbelay
Jun 11, 2004, 3:33 AM
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I'm with squish and iamthewallress. Know what's going on. I always extend my rappel device and have a friction knot on the tail side of the device. With experience I can tell from the feel and weight in my brake hand approx how much tail is left. When I'm with climbers who want to tie knots, I don't bother to argue. It's their rappel too. But I prefer no knots and a clear head.
ps iamthewallress - how are you rigging for a fixed rap line? I assume it is something that can be broken down quickly by the second for pulling the rope thru. (?) rope rigged thru ring/anchor/bolt like normal for rappelling. reach down take a bight of both strands tie in a figure-8 on a bight and using a locking biner, clip to anchor for the first to rappel down (?)
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curt
Jun 11, 2004, 5:02 AM
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In reply to: Keefer, that was a measured informative sensible response from somebody who has obviously done the deed. Nice to see experience being turned into good advice, NewBs take note, you wont get better advice than that. :P
Well. maybe or maybe not better--but another good alternative, none the less. Instead of both parties rapping, lower the first person to the next belay station, where they can fix both ends of the rope. The second person can then safely rap. This alleviates the rope getting stuck--and the need for knots in the ends of the rope.
Curt
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thomaskeefer
Jun 11, 2004, 5:38 AM
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I'm not knockin' your advice... It's very sound, but are you going to do this at every pitch while retreating from a storm? Sometimes the faster way is the safer way.
The post was about rapping into the wind (just cause there is wind does not mean that there is a storm)... had ropes blowing straight out coming off crimson chrysalis a few years back but not a cloud in the sky...
When a storm is coming then you have to weigh out the risks..
A stuck rope in a storm is a bigger deal than the approx 30secs-1min that it takes to knot the ends and stuff the rope into your pack..
In a windy storm and assuming BOMBER rap anchors (no single pin backed up to a 1/2" sapling 'alpine' raps)..
Follow my previous post but each person stuffs an end in their pack and then simul rap..
For most cases... Storms mean safety is speed.. BUT stuck ropes never ever mean speed so I guess you have to make the call after looking at the next rap line.. if it is down a slab, knots but no pack.. if it is over a bunch of cracks and ledges and then into a chimney.. no knots but pack...
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sarcat
Jun 11, 2004, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: Instead of both parties rapping, lower the first person to the next belay station, where they can fix both ends of the rope.
I've done this but we still made sure there was a knot in the free end of the rope so that it could not pass the belay device (for whatever reason the belayer wasn't paying attention or got bonked on the noggin).
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andypro
Jun 11, 2004, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: V. Stuff all the rope into your pack and cinch the drawstring down on the two strands. The two strands are now leaving your pack, running through your rap device and then to the anchor (this prevents you from losing some small stuff that may get mixed in with your rope as it leaves the pack) VI. Do one last check and start down into the windy abyss.. the rope comes smoothly out of your pack as you go downand you are not having to rap without having knots in the ends or letting the wind take the ends and chancing a stuck rope...
This may sound stupid, but learn from my mistake....
When you stuff the rope into your pack, start from the free end!
I once made the mistake of being in a rush and just throwing as much rope as I could into the pack as fast as I could (racing lightning). Everything was fine until a little less than half way down the rap....bam....a big honkin ball of rope came out of my pack and laughed at me. Bastard. The rope was in a friggin impenetrable knot that took me 5 minutes to untangle. Doesn't sound like much time...but I dont know about you, but lightning scares me.
Dont do what I did. That is all. Thank you, have a nice night.
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crimpandgo
Jun 11, 2004, 2:49 PM
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thomaskeefer,
The origninal post was not about rapping in the wind. The original post was about rapping off the end of the rope. The wind discussion was an example of when knotting the ends would be problemmatic. I don't agree with the "you have to do something quick because a storm is coming" concepts. If you let conditions drive your actions you will eventually become a statistic. I agree you want speedy methods for getting back down, but I would never sacrafice safety in the process. What would be the point in avoiding a rain storm only to die on rapel?
I personally hate wasting time setting climbs up, etc. So any method I choose to get down is going to be the quickest way down anyway regardless of conditions .
:D
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iamthewallress
Jun 11, 2004, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: ps iamthewallress - how are you rigging for a fixed rap line? I assume it is something that can be broken down quickly by the second for pulling the rope thru. (?) rope rigged thru ring/anchor/bolt like normal for rappelling. reach down take a bight of both strands tie in a figure-8 on a bight and using a locking biner, clip to anchor for the first to rappel down (?)
Exactly....Rig the rap and then fix the line back to the anchor on a bight.
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iamthewallress
Jun 11, 2004, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: If you let conditions drive your actions you will eventually become a statistic.
Sorry, dude, but if you DON'T let conditions drive your actions, and rather use some kind of blind adherance to a set of rules that you read in ANAM or FOTH, you will become a statistic. The first and most important rule is to be aware of the conditions.
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