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pneumoped
Jun 18, 2004, 5:25 PM
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A high school boy was in a climbing accident back in Oct. of 2002. He was climbing on an overhung route and when he fell he swung out and hit a tin shed which cut his leg quite badly.
Some details of the accident and the lawsuit can be found in the following article:
Accident leads to lawsuit against city, Bridges HS
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killclimbz
Jun 18, 2004, 5:34 PM
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Just what climbing needs, is a lawsuit. Sounds like a multitude of mistakes made by all parties involved.
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curt
Jun 18, 2004, 5:36 PM
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Well, in 99% of these cases I would claim that personal responsibility should take precedence and that if a climber gets hurt--its his own fault. But, this situation is different. The injured party was not really a climber and was clearly relying on the phy-ed instructor to see that things were arranged safely for him.
Sounds like there was some clear negligence on the part of the school and its employees here. I don't see how anybody with even half a brain could set up a rope where a falling climber could swing out into a razor edged piece of steel.
Still, its too bad there had to be a lawsuit over this. The end result is usually additional restrictions being put on climbing access in one way or another.
Curt
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vegastradguy
Jun 18, 2004, 5:39 PM
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anyone care to explain why you would allow a kid (or anyone, for that matter) to climb a route where a fall would result in hitting a shed?
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sarcat
Jun 18, 2004, 5:54 PM
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Why was the exposed tin left "un-eaved"? City workers don't know how to install trim in Glenwood?
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dorkmaster
Jun 18, 2004, 6:04 PM
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I think I can name one cliff that is going to be closed soon.... :(
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saskclimber
Jun 18, 2004, 6:15 PM
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It was probably a dumb place to put the shed in that spot, but isn't the final level of responsibility up to the climber themselves to make sure there isn't anything obvious that isn't safe?! Everyone really likes to sue nowadays don't they. I girl in my hometown whos family just sued for $16M and won. They sued the school, school board, city, city police, just about anybody and everybody.
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ninjaslut
Jun 18, 2004, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: I girl in my hometown whos family just sued for $16M and won. They sued the school, school board, city, city police, just about anybody and everybody.
Care to elaborate on that?
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saskclimber
Jun 18, 2004, 7:02 PM
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She was in Kindergarten, and she was walking to school on the first day of school (unattended). She ran out onto the street between a couple parked cars and got hit. It was already proven that the driver wasnt paying as much attention as he shouldve been, but the school / schoolboard / police... is getting sued for not having safety patrolers out there before school and theres some other wierd ones that I don't quite know the specifics of. She's now in a wheelchair and a quadraplegic, so I realize the care for her is expensive, but in reality, it was basically her fault that she got hit (and the driver's to some extent).
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angry
Jun 18, 2004, 7:15 PM
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The lawsuit is right. Cut ligaments, there is real damage, not just some scar.
As someone who's taken PE classes climbing, I see how this happened. "Mr. Fshizzle can we climb that one?" it's possible to get distracted and just let things happen. Thats the point you need to realize the kids are your responsibility and they won't be doing anything you haven't approved. It's simple, this guy screwed up.
I really like climbing in the PE curriculum, I hope this doesn't affect that.
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saskclimber
Jun 18, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: ...and they won't be doing anything you haven't approved.
Wanna bet?..
I've taught both PE classes as well as other activities with large groups of children (swimming, camping... etc.) It's the other way around. The kids will genererally try anything you haven't said not to do. And if the route was bolted and on his topo, their teacher could've very well easily said the route was alright to climb. The student could've been running out the side of the route, skipped a bolt, had way too much slack, or any number of things that could've well made it his own fault. It's still too bad that things happen and he got hurt, but thats exactly it...things happen.
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j_ung
Jun 18, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...and they won't be doing anything you haven't approved. Wanna bet?.. I've taught both PE classes as well as other activities with large groups of children (swimming, camping... etc.) It's the other way around. The kids will genererally try anything you haven't said not to do. And if the route was bolted and on his topo, their teacher could've very well easily said the route was alright to climb. The student could've been running out the side of the route, skipped a bolt, had way too much slack, or any number of things that could've well made it his own fault.
First, I find it highly doubtful, to say the least, that a kid in an American high school PE class was leading.
Second, this kid wasn't swimming or camping or running crazy through the woods simply because his teacher didn't tell him not to, he was on rope -- doing exactly what the school brought him there to do -- and the people directly responsible for his safety failed to ensure it.
It sucks that this has to be settled in court, but if the school won't take responsibility for the accident, then I think it's justifiable in this case. That the principle may have inadvertently also blamed the future status of all field trips on this poor kid is also particulary disturbing. I think it shows what is likely the same lack of forethought that led to the accident in question.
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saskclimber
Jun 18, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: First, I find it highly doubtful, to say the least, that a kid in an American high school PE class was leading
Where did it say they were leading? they couldve swung out while top roping. But anyways, yes, if the school is taking them out there, it should ultimately be the school's responsibility for the children's safety. Alot of schools don't adhere to safety as much as they should and that's a big problem. The article also didn't mention how much experience either the students or the teacher had with climbing. If they had teamed up with a separate party that was responsible for setting the anchors instead of the school doing it, the teacher could've taken the anchor builders word that it was safe to climb. The article doesn't give enough info as to the specifics, but it's still too bad that the kid got hurt.
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rgold
Jun 18, 2004, 7:58 PM
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When kids go out under school auspices, the school is responsible for their safety. In such circumstances, "pilot error" is not a way for the school to avoid its obligation to keep kids out of harm's way. Teenagers' brains have not developed enough for them to make reasonable assesments of risk. The adults in charge have to do this, and they failed in this case.
Like Curt, I hate to see things like this used to restrict access. But it isn't the kid's family that's to blame, they have every right to a lawsuit in my opinion. Its the school and the instructor who are screwing the rest of the climbing community.
I've seen a lot of camps and schools put their charges at risk in a climbing environment. First they tell the parents and kids that it is completely safe, then they employ people whose own knowledge and ability is modest, and only good luck saves them from catastrophe. In this case, good luck ran out, but I'd guess the instructor whose attention span was low enough to let kids climb over a sharp roof edge almost certainly endangered them in myriads of other ways too. Sadly, the chickens came home to roost.
Anyone who makes an argument that "these things happen" is, in my opinion, arguing that schools shouldn't be taking PE classes out to the crags, and I personally would view the elimination and/or restriction of such programs as an appropriate consequence.
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tedc
Jun 18, 2004, 8:44 PM
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I hate lawsuit but in this case YES, the school (instructor) is liable for the physical injuries to the boy AND the comments by the principal indicating that the boy was responsible for the potential discontinuation of field trips which caused the boy to be ostricized a also grounds for a personal suit. I say string em both up. Infact the reason I hate lawsuits is because they often represent a person trying to get someone else to take responsibility for thier actions. In this case the school is trying to shirk thier responsibilities so sue away.
Side Note. I would not let my kid participate in a PE climbing class unless I personally had experience with the instructor OR I knew that my kid had all the necessary skills and knowledge to set up and do the climbs on thier own.
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robmcc
Jun 18, 2004, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: She's now in a wheelchair and a quadraplegic, so I realize the care for her is expensive, but in reality, it was basically her fault that she got hit (and the driver's to some extent).
In kindergarten? Not remotely. Someone should have been responsible for watching her.
Awful story.
Rob
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spiffdog
Jun 18, 2004, 9:30 PM
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We shouldn't assume that just because an action was filed that it will be resolved in court. Filing an action is how you get the other guys attention. You don't call up the school and say "Hey, you let my kid get hurt. Why don't you give me 500k and we'll call it even?" You'll get laughed at. You file a $50 million action, force them to go through discovery (very expensive process), drum up some bad press, and THEN you talk about settling out of court.
-Spiff
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angry
Jun 18, 2004, 9:32 PM
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I stand by my words. J-ung backed up exactly what I was trying to say. Kids do not lead in high school classes, even if they know how. The only routes these kids climb are the ones that the teacher put the rope on. If there was a rope on that route, it said to the kids that they could climb it. The kid was most likely on TR and the teacher had put the rope there. At the very least someone else put the rope up and the teacher never questioned whether it was safe. That's negligence folks.
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ex_mea_sententia
Jun 18, 2004, 10:06 PM
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it would be interesting to know whether or not the parents had to sign a waiver to let their kid participate. even if they could prove the teacher was negligent, there may be no liability.
perhaps that's why the city has also been named in the suit.
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boss
Jun 18, 2004, 10:27 PM
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yeah I would say we need a few more details to be absolutely sure who is at fault. Does sound like it is the school though.
Boss
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climbsomething
Jun 18, 2004, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Side Note. I would not let my kid participate in a PE climbing class unless I personally had experience with the instructor OR I knew that my kid had all the necessary skills and knowledge to set up and do the climbs on thier own. |
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gds
Jun 18, 2004, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: Side Note. I would not let my kid participate in a PE climbing class unless I personally had experience with the instructor OR I knew that my kid had all the necessary skills and knowledge to set up and do the climbs on thier own.
I agree in principle; but it opens up a whole can of worms. In HS gym class we had boxing. Now I happened to be a Golden Gloves Boxer. That was lots of fun--for immature me!
My point is that kids are exposed to all sorts of dangers. it's up to the adults:parents, teachers, camp counselors-whomever- to take care for them. I think you need to decide that you trust the organization and that they will do a responsible job overall and not get into the business of vetting each individual activity.
How many deaths and/or serious injuries a year are there of high school football players? I'll bet it far exceeds school class climbers.
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climbsomething
Jun 18, 2004, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: In HS gym class we had boxing. |
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gds
Jun 18, 2004, 11:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In HS gym class we had boxing. Sheesh. We had badminton and square dancing.
In HS I would have found square dancing much more intimidating than boxing.
Now Badminton was interesting--you can hit folks with those rackets so it wasn't too bad. Nah! they kept me away from weapons of any type.
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merock
Jun 19, 2004, 1:33 AM
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F all that.... the parents should get NOTHING...... It's the parents responsibiliy not the coaches or the schools. They should know that this is a dangerous sport and there is chance of injury and the possibility of death... And for those that say highschool kids should not be leading??? WTF?? Are you kidding me? Have you seen what the kids these days are doing? Wasn't there a HUGE thread on an 11 yr old RPing a 5.14??? He's not even in highschool yet.
I agree about negligence, but negligence on the parents behalf. If they are going to be trusting their kids life to a "coach", it should be there responsibility to find out that guys credentials. If there was any question about this, then sorry kid, but no PE rock climbing for you..... I'm sorry folks, it just irks me that we sue when ever we can. We pass blame onto other people for something that is our responsibility. The kids parents are a) looking for some cash and b) looking for affirmation that they didn't use poor judgement and not let their kid take the class. Suck it up, get a loan and pay for what's your fault.... they were rockclimbing for crying out loud, not underwater basket weaving.....
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