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mcgardogen
Jul 6, 2004, 4:26 AM
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OK so I was watching the news just barely and, there was another climber who fell in Little Cottonwood Canyon(utah). She was up about 30 feet and was placing her third piece of gear when going to clip she slipped and the other two pieces popped. She decked out but only suffered a broken wrist and was banged up a little(luckily!).
I have been leading trad(at about 5.9) for a while now, but I have never actually fallen on any protection of my own. The only thing i have done is sit on it, but taking a fall like she did makes me wonder if my gear would hold since i have never done it.
My question is how many people are like me and have not fallen from above your last piece? Am I just not pushing myself enough?
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tahoe_rock_master
Jul 6, 2004, 5:06 AM
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I have just started to onsight 5.9's and i had not fallen on my own gear untill about a month ago when i tried to lead a 5.9+ after climbing three 5.10b/c cracks. I took a 12 footer onto a purple alien and it held perfectly!
so, i would probably go with the old saying, "if your not falling your not climbing hard enough". I would say go to a 5.10 or a 5.9+ and try to onsight it. if ur not pushing it your not going to get any better. my 2 cents.
have fun!!!!!
Matt
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asandh
Jul 6, 2004, 5:14 AM
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:)
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philbox
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Jul 6, 2004, 5:29 AM
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The thread title is misleading. The climbers placements failed. The gear did not fail. Big difference.
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climbinginchico
Jul 6, 2004, 5:35 AM
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bingo, phil.
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dimitri
Jul 6, 2004, 5:46 AM
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I was there this morning and the SAR team said that she was "hiking" around the coffin, not climbing, but her dad said on the TV, "She will be fine, she's a good climber". They didn't say much more on KSL either. They did say she broke her nose though.
As for your question, it breaks down into the physics of climbing. Such and such a piece will hold a certain amount of force if properly placed before it pops. I think knowing how to do the math in your head and how to properly place pro can take you a long way, and keep you injury free. Accidents may still happen, but taking the guess work out of it will help a great deal. Knowing how far you could fall before maxing out a well placed piece is vital. I have read some great threads related to this issue elsewhere as well.
On another note, I think having a massive rack helps too. You always have the appropriate piece for the appropriate spot, instead of trying to make something else "work" there instead.
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mcgardogen
Jul 6, 2004, 6:31 AM
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I heard all that info on the news so i guess it shows how accurate the news is.
Yeah, I think I just need to grow some. thanks for the input guys.
phil and chico I'm sorry you guys couldn't decipher my technical jargon. maybe next time dudes :)
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tanslacks
Jul 6, 2004, 6:51 AM
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I have not told many people this yet. Too embarassed :oops: I have been climbing for nearly 30 years and have never taken a long leader fall until 3 weeks ago. A good (bad) 25 footer. A route I had done many times before without incident. I placed my last piece out of habit, not thinking I would fall. It was a #4 metolius that I had been thinking of retiring. It was at least 12 years old (original webbing) It held fine, Unfortunatly my ankle did not. Oh well. I did not deck. 1st major injury after 30 years.. not bad. Gear works. Learn from experience. Placements are VERY important. That was my only piece to stop my decking from about 70 feet.
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scuclimber
Jul 6, 2004, 8:02 AM
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In reply to: I have not told many people this yet. Too embarassed :oops: I have been climbing for nearly 30 years and have never taken a long leader fall until 3 weeks ago. A good (bad) 25 footer. A route I had done many times before without incident. I placed my last piece out of habit, not thinking I would fall. It was a #4 metolius that I had been thinking of retiring. It was at least 12 years old (original webbing) It held fine, Unfortunatly my ankle did not. Oh well. I did not deck. 1st major injury after 30 years.. not bad. Gear works. Learn from experience. Placements are VERY important. That was my only piece to stop my decking from about 70 feet.
Thanks for the input. I learned a lot from that small paragraph you just posted.
Colin
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robthebuilder79
Jul 6, 2004, 8:27 AM
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Critize my coments if you will, but here is my two cents. Due to past falls, I have I've gotten into the habbit of taking the placement by the draw and either weighting it or giving it a strong yank to set it and to see how strong it is. (This is why I'm always rapping down to recover my pro cuz my partners give up trying to retrieve them. But I'd rather rap down and climb it again than take the chance.)
Also when ever I make a placement I assume that the first two placements will pop and only serve to slow me down enough for the third to catch me. With that in mind I'm much more conscious of how and where my pro is placed.
In closing here are two final thoughs; First your pro is only as good as the rock it's stuck in. Just because it say's 12kN doesn't mean the rock will hold that.
Second, I like cam's, they are easy. I do not own any, to expensive. As a carpenter by trade I liken cams to nail guns. They are both easier to use than the original method, and if used right safer than the original. However since nail guns have become more popular and more affordable the quality of craftmanship has gone down. Framers have become much more sloppy with their skills, exactness is no longer reguired to the same degree as it was when everything was done with a hammer and nail. Like high production framers, climbers too have become lazy with their placement. With a cam unit they just cram and go with out thinking.
It's good to push yourself but have some regard for saftey.
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socalclimber
Jul 6, 2004, 11:55 AM
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I think asandh has given the best advice of all here. Learning to clean aid climb is by far the best way to learn about placements. I have to disagree with robthebuilder's assesment, it has nothing to do with being lazy. More likely people learning to trad climb don't realize that leading and placing pro are two sperate skill sets. If you are a 5.7 leader trying to push hard on a 5.9 route, you'd better know how place proper pro. Better to learn to lead routes that are well within you ability and get your pro issues out of the way first.
In ten years I have taken some good whippers. One was 30 feet in Zion when a piece blew I was top stepping on, ironicaly the piece that stopped my fall was a nasty fixed RURP. Go figure! Push hard, but don't push stupidly.
Robert
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miklaw
Jul 6, 2004, 12:53 PM
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Easiest way to learn to place good gear fast is to aid on gear. Aiding is boring for someone else to belay, so set up a toprope and either bel;ay yourself on a fig8 knot, or a grigri with a figure 8 tied below it.
That way you only have a limited piece of crack (your reach) to place the next piece in, you have to weight it, and you have to get it out.
The other stuff (slinging, drag, double ropes, tieing clusters together) you can work out later.
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socalclimber
Jul 6, 2004, 1:49 PM
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To elaborate a bit on the clean aid topic here, learning to place gear while aiding is your best bet because you can spend an eternity on each piece. You get to fiddle, futz, and see what's bomber and what's not. You do not get this luxury while leading trad. The longer it takes you to get a solid placement on trad, the more tired you are gonna be, the more likely you could burn out and fall.
Robert
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cmor
Jul 6, 2004, 1:50 PM
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In reply to: Due to past falls, I have I've gotten into the habbit of taking the placement by the draw and either weighting it or giving it a strong yank to set it and to see how strong it is.
I actually consider yanking on my pieces as a warning that I obviously am not comfortable with the placement. If it looks sketchy, it probably is sketchy.
You can get some horrible placements to pass the yank test. You're probably can't put much more than 0.7 kn of force on it, a far cry from a big fall.
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veep23
Jul 6, 2004, 3:54 PM
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Well, I work for the news and I covered the story and, since u obviously weren't paying attention :D, here are the details: 12 yo girl lead climbing coffin crack, her first 5.9 trad route, dad was climbing the route next to her coaching her up, as she was going to clip her third piece at about 20 ft. she slipped and fell, her second piece (a stopper) popped and she decked. Broken nose, facial lacerations and broken wrist. All in all she came out of it pretty well, even smiled and waved at the crowd. Dad stated that her gear wasn't set properly, no failure involved, just somebody leading at their level and making a mistake. He says she will probably lead more sport than trad from here on out.
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brianinslc
Jul 6, 2004, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: Well, I work for the news and I covered the story and, since u obviously weren't paying attention :D, here are the details: 12 yo girl lead climbing coffin crack, her first 5.9 trad route, dad was climbing the route next to her coaching her up, as she was going to clip her third piece at about 20 ft. she slipped and fell, her second piece (a stopper) popped and she decked. Broken nose, facial lacerations and broken wrist. All in all she came out of it pretty well, even smiled and waved at the crowd. Dad stated that her gear wasn't set properly, no failure involved, just somebody leading at their level and making a mistake. He says she will probably lead more sport than trad from here on out.
Thought that looked like the Coffin area on the news...
Dad was climbing the route next to her? Left?
The first 15 or 20 feet of the Coffin can be difficult pro. I like a blue and yeller TCU before the crack takes a good stopper. Thin through there, though.
KSL news anchor even had gear to show including a #1 camalot and a rack of stoppers and stated that the gear failed. I figured it was pilot error.
Wow...12 years old leadin' the Coffin... Hope she recovers quickly and gets back up on that horse. Glad she wasn't hurt worse.
Kind of hard to imagine what was goin' through "Dad's" mind...
Brian in SLC
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grayhghost
Jul 6, 2004, 4:32 PM
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yeah, Brian is right.
The direct 5.9 start to the coffin has some marginal nut placements
and maybe a real small cam. I wonder if
she was doing the 5.8 R start to the left of the direct start.
Dad must be bumming,
but at least she did not go down all the way through the forth class
terain.
Twelve and leading, pretty cool!
Was her name Trinity by chance?
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tavs
Jul 6, 2004, 4:35 PM
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Nice to hear the real details of what happened with this. Here's the report I heard on Channel 2 News last night: 12 year old fell while climbing. She "missed a foot peg and her safety line failed and she hit the ground." They showed her being taken out full stretcher style, I think they mentioned she only had a broken wrist and nose, but the image of her going out on the stretcher is probably the one that stuck with most non-climbers, eh?
Sounds like some other stations did a better job of conveying the technical details. Veep23--which station do you work for? Regarding the above report--do you think that's just the best way they could think to convey to the general public what had happened, or does channel 2 just not have any climbers on staff (hard to imagine in this town)??
As for the climber...sounds like she needs more practice placing gear before getting on a route like the coffin, which as already noted, can be tricky to protect in the beginning. As for gear in general, though, it'll hold if its well-placed and the rock is good. I fell on the same route, higher up (when I got suckered into trying to smear outside the crack rather than jam it straight up) where there are bomber cam placements. Can't rememebr what I fell onto (.75?? 1?? camalot), the fall was a bit unexpected, but I knew the gear was solid. I don't like to make a habit out of taking trad falls, but I am confident enough in my gear to know that most of the time, when it does happen, it'll be ok. And for those other times, when the rock or the gear isn't good, I don't fall :)
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mcgardogen
Jul 6, 2004, 5:43 PM
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In reply to: ...people learning to trad climb don't realize that leading and placing pro are two sperate skill sets. If you are a 5.7 leader trying to push hard on a 5.9 route, you'd better know how place proper pro. Better to learn to lead routes that are well within you ability and get your pro issues out of the way first.
Totally man! I want to make sure I got the pro placing skills before I push my grade levels too much.
Here's another question: I sport lead in the 12 range, but my hardest redpoint on trad is 5.9. Most people I know are like me, but does anyone push their sport limits on trad climbing(i.e. lead trad and sport 5.10)?
hope this makes sense
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d.ben
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Jul 6, 2004, 6:54 PM
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I'm a n00b and I've only led about 7 climbs on gear. But I've never taken a fall on lead, sport or on gear, so I only climb 5.5, 5.6's on gear. I don't feel like I should be climbing till I fall on gear because that's what sport is for, for me. I'm afraid that if i lead near my limit on gear something like this accident could happen. I'm assuming it's something your gut tells you when you're ready to push it on gear. Mine is telling me,"practice more first".
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holmeslovesguinness
Jul 6, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: Here's another question: I sport lead in the 12 range, but my hardest redpoint on trad is 5.9. Most people I know are like me, but does anyone push their sport limits on trad climbing(i.e. lead trad and sport 5.10)?
I guess I fall into that category - my trad leading limit is roughly 5.9, while my sport leading limit is roughly 5.10 (yeah, I kinda suck). I've taken a few mini-whippers on gear (on two 5.10's and one 5.9), no more than 15', but only on single pitch routes where I was absolutely confident about the placements and knew the fall would be clean.
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asandh
Jul 6, 2004, 8:02 PM
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:)
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breaksnclimbs
Jul 6, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: Here's another question: I sport lead in the 12 range, but my hardest redpoint on trad is 5.9. Most people I know are like me, but does anyone push their sport limits on trad climbing(i.e. lead trad and sport 5.10)?
Not me. I need to start pushing my TRAD limits on SPORT!! I've redpointed (yes, taken falls on) 11b trad. Funny thing is...
I've fallen T.R.ing the same routes after leading them clean!!
Can't say for sure on sport- hardest I've gotten on is 10a. Go Figure!
Basically it seems as though my tr limit is pretty darn close to my lead limit :?
p.s. Gear holds IF properly placed in GOOD rock.
12 yrs old and leading trad,
that sure as heck is frickin' rad!!!
That she's O.k., yes I'm glad :wink:
(sorry - couldn't resist :oops: )
rs
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climbingprophet
Jul 6, 2004, 8:30 PM
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I guess that I fall under that catagory as well. I sport lead in the .12s and trad in the .11s. I just feel more comforatable on my own gear. I placed it and I know it will hold. I still try to attack it from a " don't fall mentality", but when the time comes, I know that if placed well it will hold.
I took my first "real" fall the other day on an .11 onsight attempt, it wasn't the ideal piece or fall angle. However, the piece held strong and didn't even walk. I was mad at myself for falling, but really stoked that the piece held that well.
Bottom line is: Place well, and trust both yourself and the gear. :)
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over_the_hill
Jul 6, 2004, 8:38 PM
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Here is a post from what I conder a direct source:
"If you haven't already heard, my daughter had a ground fall yesterday in
LCC. I tried to make sure the news got the details correct, but (imagine!)
for the most part they were not even close.
At about 0745, Trinity Romney, 14, of Herriman, UT began leading the Coffin
crack via the twin diagonal crack start. She placed a number 4 stopper in a
pin scar about 8 feet off the deck, and continued up to where her head was
at the point where the twin cracks converge. She then reached up and placed
a 0.5 TCU in the base of the main crack and attempted to clip into the
piece. As she drew the slack up to the piece, her feet cut loose before she
clipped the piece and she fell about 18 feet to the ground. Her belayer was
unable to pull in enough slack to stop the fall from grounding.
I was was climbing approximately 15' to her right on the Closed Casket
variation of The Viewing when the accident occurred. My belayer saw the
fall begin and reached up with his left hand and deflected her somewhat as
she hit, also stopping her from rolling further downhill from the impact
point. He then quickly lowered me and we began evaluation and first aid.
It was immediately apparent she had sustained a significant impact to the
face, and had also sustained a broken wrist. I slid into a position where I
could keep her immobile, and we began treatment for shock. We also
determined that extracting her on our own was out of the question as we had
no confirmation she had not sustained further injury.
The fifth member of our party called for paramedics and search and rescue.
Paramedics were on scene within 30 minutes and SAR approximately 30 minutes
later. We fixed an initial line for SAR which they used to tie off packs,
etc., while they secured their static lines for the extraction. The
extraction took approximately 90 minutes after the arrival of SAR.
Trinity was treated at Cottonwood Hospital and is now home recovering and in
good spirits. If anyone happens to do the Coffin today, Trinity wouldn't
mind if they could rescue her TCU too! :)
If you have any other questions, please contact me and I'll try to fill in
any other blanks.
Thanks!
- Vince Romney"
I just thought I would share this with everyone. I hope she gets better soon, and that she sends the route next try.
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