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mikec
Jul 19, 2004, 8:39 PM
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I like the idea of an auto locking belay device for use on a project where the leader is falling a lot, hanging, falling and so on.
My problem is, I don't really understand how to feed rope fast to the leader using a grigri without taking my break hand off the rope.
Can some one help me with my delema?
Is there another auto locker that makes feeding rope to a leader easier? Is the ATC the only way for me?
Thanks for your help.
Mike
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caughtinside
Jul 19, 2004, 8:54 PM
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Here's the catch mike, to feed rope FAST through a grigri, you have to take your brake hand off the rope.
Here's what you do: When the leader is climbing, you keep your brake hand on the rope, and feed with both hands, one hand on either side of the grigri.
When the leader is clipping, your right/brake hand comes off the rope, and pinches the grigri, holding it open and preventing it from camming.
Your left hand grabs rope next to the grigri, and yards it out. Rip it through there! I find 2 arm lengths is about perfect for someone making a clip at about their head level or a little above.
As soon as you yard out the slack, your right hand goes back onto the brake.
You should practice this on easy climbs before using it on stuff where you might expect to fall.
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kevindubrau
Jul 19, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Mike, There are several ways of feeding slack to the leader when belaying with a gri-gri, but I wouldn't try to teach or learn any of them over the internet. When you're feeding out slack quickly from a gri-gri, you're effectually forcing the device to do exactly what it's designed to prevent. IMHO, anyone learning to lead belay on a gri-gri should have an experienced belayer watching them and giving them tips. Extra care is not only merited, but necessary when paying out slack quickly with this device. My advice is find an experience belayer who can show you the ropes and is willing to help you learn and get som experience. It can be done, but until you've got experience and are comfortable with it, stick to the ATC.
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miklaw
Jul 19, 2004, 9:15 PM
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With a thinnner rope you can jiggle the rope out without letting go of the anchor side of the rope. Anticpation helps, and a leader who calls for slack 2 second before is a blessing. The rope needs to be well stacked too.
On a fatter rope you sort of need to hold the grigri open, the best way I've seen of doing that is with the pinky of your right hand, with the grigri rock feed side facing to the left. This set up still isn't optimal, but helps you to not clamp the thing open in a sudden fall (sidetwist helps generate some friction and pull it out of your pinky, and using the pinky is less likely to keep it locked).
But! practice practice practice. There are no perfect devices, and belaying is hard to do well all the time.
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fardawg
Jul 19, 2004, 9:31 PM
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I say just stick to the ATC. So many people bla bla bla about how great the gri gri is; unless you're climbing with fat albert, save your money and get your partner to quit hangdog'n. Either keep climbing or start over.
My two cents should be worth more :wink:
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slablizard
Jul 19, 2004, 9:38 PM
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Piece of advice:
Lead belaying---> ATC / Figure 8 and lot of attention. No chit chat. Look up at the leader until he's / she's done.
TR---> Gri-Gri.
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nthusiastj
Jul 19, 2004, 9:43 PM
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As one poster said you have to squeeze the gri-gri with your right hand and pull out rope with your left. If you pinch with your right hand correctly, your hand never actually ceases to be around the brake end of the rope. Plus, falls usually generate enough force that you can't keep the gri-gri from locking with your measly pinch on the cam.
Learn by watching!
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rrrADAM
Jul 19, 2004, 9:44 PM
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Hold the gri-gri in your palm so that your fingers and palm negate the camming action. But the trick is to be able to anticipate how much and when to feed out the rope, just as with an ATC. I can play out rope almost as fast with a gri-gri, even though I rarely use them.
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caughtinside
Jul 19, 2004, 9:49 PM
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In reply to: Piece of advice: Lead belaying---> ATC / Figure 8 and lot of attention. No chit chat. Look up at the leader until he's / she's done. TR---> Gri-Gri.
Disagree. Catching repeated falls with the ATC, and holding the climber in position for 2, 3, 4, minutes while they rest, reattempt, and fall again will take a serious toll on the belayer. Your right hand will tire and you'll climb like crap.
Having the cam engage and catch the climber takes all that stress off the hand. You should still have your hand on the brake, but it's not supporting the climber's weight.
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sspssp
Jul 19, 2004, 9:52 PM
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In reply to: Is there another auto locker that makes feeding rope to a leader easier? Is the ATC the only way for me?
There is no perfect device, but you may want to consider the TRE. Once you get used to it, it is as easy to feed as an ATC. It won't self-lock as easily as the Grigri. However, it locks up very easily. After it is locked, it will stay locked under load (good if your leader is hangdogging). Do a search on this web site for "TRE", if you're interested.
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rrrADAM
Jul 19, 2004, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Piece of advice: Lead belaying---> ATC / Figure 8 and lot of attention. No chit chat. Look up at the leader until he's / she's done. TR---> Gri-Gri. Disagree. Catching repeated falls with the ATC, and holding the climber in position for 2, 3, 4, minutes while they rest, reattempt, and fall again will take a serious toll on the belayer. Your right hand will tire and you'll climb like crap. Having the cam engage and catch the climber takes all that stress off the hand. You should still have your hand on the brake, but it's not supporting the climber's weight.
Not if you turn the locker over so the smaller radius side of it is in the ATC... This will provide much more friction, and I can hold a hangdoigger for hours, with no effort. Try it. :wink:
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slablizard
Jul 19, 2004, 9:56 PM
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You can use 2 hands to hold the rope , I use the hands down technique and so far it worked perfectly. Never stopped me from sending
:D
Actually when you bend the rope down and out of the atc you can hold your leader weight just pressing your fingers on the rope itself against the ATC, letting the other hand rest. Or just switch hands from time to time.
But it is just MY advice... not a rule.
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ax
Jul 19, 2004, 10:03 PM
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jeeeez I can't believe nobody's said something like this yet...
as your climber gets near to where they'll be clipping, nudge the rope into the gri-gri a little bit at a time... (it'll feed and you won't have to take your brake hand off) taking small steps back as you go so as not to leave a sagging loop. When they grab to rope to yank it for the clip, take a couple big steps forward, thus giving them instant slack, without ever haveing to take your brake hand off. I've been doing this for years and it works fine.
Sometimes I do have to squeeze it with my right hand to feed it out, but hardly ever.
CLIMB SMART!
PEACE
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caughtinside
Jul 19, 2004, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Piece of advice: Lead belaying---> ATC / Figure 8 and lot of attention. No chit chat. Look up at the leader until he's / she's done. TR---> Gri-Gri. Disagree. Catching repeated falls with the ATC, and holding the climber in position for 2, 3, 4, minutes while they rest, reattempt, and fall again will take a serious toll on the belayer. Your right hand will tire and you'll climb like crap. Having the cam engage and catch the climber takes all that stress off the hand. You should still have your hand on the brake, but it's not supporting the climber's weight. Not if you turn the locker over so the smaller radius side of it is in the ATC... This will provide much more friction, and I can hold a hangdoigger for hours, with no effort. Try it. :wink:
Or, I can just let the grigri do it for me, with zero effort! :lol:
CI,
Unrepentant Hangdogger
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areyoumydude
Jul 19, 2004, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Here's the catch mike, to feed rope FAST through a grigri, you have to take your brake hand off the rope. Here's what you do: When the leader is climbing, you keep your brake hand on the rope, and feed with both hands, one hand on either side of the grigri. When the leader is clipping, your right/brake hand comes off the rope, and pinches the grigri, holding it open and preventing it from camming. Your left hand grabs rope next to the grigri, and yards it out. Rip it through there! I find 2 arm lengths is about perfect for someone making a clip at about their head level or a little above. As soon as you yard out the slack, your right hand goes back onto the brake. You should practice this on easy climbs before using it on stuff where you might expect to fall.
That's how I've always done it. It works fine. That being said people drop people with gri-gris all the time. Getting hands on advice from someone experienced is the way to go.
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dredsovrn
Jul 19, 2004, 10:56 PM
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I may be the only person in the world who hates gri-gri's but I do. I might just not be smart enough to use one well. It's hard to beat and ATC or other tube variation. Doesn't auto lock, but I figure the chances of me needing that are less likely than needing to handle rope efficiently. Nothings perfect I guess.
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fardawg
Jul 19, 2004, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: Or, I can just let the grigri do it for me, with zero effort! :lol:
:wink:
no effort?
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slobmonster
Jul 19, 2004, 11:09 PM
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This has already been beaten to death on this site; do a quick search on Grigri or Gri-Gri.
Regardless,
You need to adapt your belay technique to accomodate a different device. ATC = brake hand always on; it's easy. Gri-gri = you need to feed slack quick, but can't do it without violating ATC rules.
As many have said, you will probably need to pinch the device with your right hand, and pull slack through with your left. Use your pinky and ring finger to pinch the device closed: your fore- and middle fingers, and thumb, will still be on the brake strand of the rope. Any significant forces (a fallign leader) will open up your fourth and fifth fingers very, very easily, and the Gri-gri will lock, with the remainder of your brake hand still, as always, on the rope. But, with them closing it, you can pull rope through quick enough not to turn your otherwise fortuitous leader into a wobbling mess.
If you're on the ground and can walk forward quickly, this technique will work as well.
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dredsovrn
Jul 20, 2004, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Piece of advice: Lead belaying---> ATC / Figure 8 and lot of attention. No chit chat. Look up at the leader until he's / she's done. TR---> Gri-Gri. Disagree. Catching repeated falls with the ATC, and holding the climber in position for 2, 3, 4, minutes while they rest, reattempt, and fall again will take a serious toll on the belayer. Your right hand will tire and you'll climb like crap. Having the cam engage and catch the climber takes all that stress off the hand. You should still have your hand on the brake, but it's not supporting the climber's weight.
Actually, I find this not to be the case at all. I use an ATC regularly while my partner hangdogs a project. I just lock off and lean back a little. I tried the gri-gri because I thought it would be good for this situation, but I don't let my break hand off, so what's the point? Anyhow, I am not a fan of the gri-gri, but I have a feeling I am in the minority on that one. I just think it is more trouble and weight than it is worth.
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highminded
Jul 20, 2004, 12:52 AM
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You can hold your grigri "open" with your non-brake hand, while still holding on to the rope with your brake hand. Simply rest the thumb of your non-brake hand on the autolock when your partner is pulling up rope and gently hold the autolock down so it doesn't clamp on the rope.
The caveat is, you've got to be prepared to let go of the grigri device the instant your leader falls, so that the autolock can engage. If you've been belaying correctly all along and have ingrained the response to release your non-brake hand from the rope during a fall, then you should be fine.
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caughtinside
Jul 20, 2004, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: You can hold your grigri "open" with your non-brake hand, while still holding on to the rope with your brake hand. Simply rest the thumb of your non-brake hand on the autolock when your partner is pulling up rope and gently hold the autolock down so it doesn't clamp on the rope. The caveat is, you've got to be prepared to let go of the grigri device the instant your leader falls, so that the autolock can engage. If you've been belaying correctly all along and have ingrained the response to release your non-brake hand from the rope during a fall, then you should be fine.
It sounds like this way the leader will be required to pull his own slack through the grigri. That would suck. Unless I'm missing something...?
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bubbatolius
Jul 20, 2004, 1:06 AM
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I never pinch the cam! As pointed out it is best to learn from an experienced belayer. I have a two part technique that works well in most situations: once the leader is well of the ground I back up from the wall, when they are cliping I walk towards the wall while feeding them slack (walking provides some slack and avoids the dreaded lock up!). I also change the direction of my break hand from thumb towards the gri-gri to away from the gri-gri. This lets me feed the rope into the gri-gri at a better angle and quicker. What ever you do don't pinch the cam, in most of the cases the gri-gri will lock up but I have seen leader take "soft" fall and not lock the gri-gri so beware.
The moral of the story is that you shouldn't belay and experiment at the same time. My wife categorically refuses to use a gri-gri prefering the ATC so use what works.
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caughtinside
Jul 20, 2004, 1:13 AM
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In reply to: What ever you do don't pinch the cam.
Lots of experienced climbers pinch the cam. It's acceptable, if you know what you are doing.
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