|
afiveonbelay
Jul 26, 2004, 4:42 PM
Post #1 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 178
|
Has anybody noticed or felt that taking antidepressants has affected their climbing ability?
Last year I was calm and relaxed onsiting, running things out etc... even though my other life was a mess.
What I mean above is I was calm and clear on runouts, NOT that I was taking risks...
Now that I've been on antidepressants, they work great, but I'm getting sketched out on easy leads.
(posted here since there seemed to be other supplement related questions...)
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jul 26, 2004, 7:01 PM
Post #2 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
i've definitely heard of people doing dramatic/daring/scary solo climbs, spurred on largely by depression and not caring if they die or not.
likely they never would have done the climbs if they'd been properly medicated.
of course, this isn't the same thing as a drug causing extra anxiety, which might be what you're talking about. wouldn't be at all surprising ... seems like people have have had every imaginable side effect from antidepressents, including worse depression. results are hard to predict.
|
|
|
|
|
bbziger
Jul 26, 2004, 11:13 PM
Post #3 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 92
|
It’s possible that the Prozac is increasing your anxiety. While antidepressants generally have anxiety-reducing effects (they are even prescribed for Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Panic Disorder), in some cases they can cause increased anxiety. Prozac does has this side effect in some people. If you feel increased anxiety in other areas of your life, it might be due to the Prozac.
However, if you’re only feeling the anxiety in your climbing, I’d look a little deeper. Ask the following question: Do you now have more to live for than you did when your “other life was a mess”? I imagine that it’s easier to say f--- it and charge up a sketchy, run-out section when you don’t feel that you have much to live for. But if you’re happy with your life and see a positive future for yourself, the possible consequences of that run out are much greater.
Another consideration is that some people who are depressed will channel their negative feelings into a healthy activity, such as climbing. An example would be a musician or artist whose depression drives their creative abilities. Kurt Cobain, for instance. In a sense, the depression could have driven your desire to climb. Take away the depression, and you also take away the drive.
BBB
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Jul 26, 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #4 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
I can't speak for high altitudes, but rock climbing in general- my anti-depressants are irrelevant. They haven't affected me either way. Sometimes I just have a bad lead head, period.
|
|
|
|
|
oafy
Jul 27, 2004, 5:11 AM
Post #5 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 102
|
bbziger wrote: In reply to: Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: anxiety, antidepressants, attitude, and altitude -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It’s possible that the Prozac is increasing your anxiety. While antidepressants generally have anxiety-reducing effects (they are even prescribed for Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Panic Disorder), in some cases they can cause increased anxiety. Prozac does has this side effect in some people. If you feel increased anxiety in other areas of your life, it might be due to the Prozac. However, if you’re only feeling the anxiety in your climbing, I’d look a little deeper. Ask the following question: Do you now have more to live for than you did when your “other life was a mess”? I imagine that it’s easier to say f--- it and charge up a sketchy, run-out section when you don’t feel that you have much to live for. But if you’re happy with your life and see a positive future for yourself, the possible consequences of that run out are much greater. Another consideration is that some people who are depressed will channel their negative feelings into a healthy activity, such as climbing. An example would be a musician or artist whose depression drives their creative abilities. Kurt Cobain, for instance. In a sense, the depression could have driven your desire to climb. Take away the depression, and you also take away the drive. BBB
Dude before you write stupid things, I think you should do some research, who ever posted this response has no idea what there talking about. I'm not trying to put bbziger down in anyway. I just wanna point out a few things. Yes being on Prozac can increase your anxiety or depression. But this is a side effect. Either way it can be delt with, different drug or therpy. I'm not a doctor but I am a 22 year Bi-polar climber you might think I dont know fuck all, but your post pissed me off, if you dont know what bi-polar is that is look it up!. So here what baffles me about your post, you say "Another consideration is that some people who are depressed will channel their negative feelings into a healthy activity, such as climbing. An example would be a musician or artist whose depression drives their creative abilities. Kurt Cobain, for instance. In a sense, the depression could have driven your desire to climb. Take away the depression, and you also take away the drive"
I think you have this mixed up, KURT COBAIN SHOT HIMSELF, how did he turn his energy into a positive one? Just a thought. Ok here's the deal, When your clinically depressed and on anti-depressents its usually there to help you find your drive. When your depressed you have no drive. Thats why your depressed you lose something or a part of you. Of course when your down and out, you channel your negitive energy into a postive, but this isn't really depression. But listen man, I just trying to say depression, real depression is scary, not sure if you suffered it, but the things you wrote you should've thought twice about writing. I gotta add another thing that pissed me off
You said
"However, if you’re only feeling the anxiety in your climbing, I’d look a little deeper. Ask the following question: Do you now have more to live for than you did when your “other life was a mess”? I imagine that it’s easier to say f--- it and charge up a sketchy, run-out section when you don’t feel that you have much to live for. But if you’re happy with your life and see a positive future for yourself, the possible consequences of that run out are much greater".
Seriously. read again what you wrote dude when your depressed it doesn't mean you wanna say fuck it and charge up a sketchy run out. It means you need help, when I was clear not suffering from anything, I would run anything out, then when I suffered my first episode, you couldn't catch me dead on a sport climb or top rope. Well if you think I'm fucked go ahead, cause the people who know me, no that 3 month before my first Yosemite trip, i was in a hospital. Then I trained myself to beat this desiese and go on the trip, who would of thought, I stood on the top of some classic yosemite routes, all drugged up on anti depresents, mood stabilizers. Aright maybe this made no sense. I needed to vent. Oh for the dude that posted this I'll PM you and tell you a story about over comin this problem you have!
I think you might not get what the guy said in his post!.
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jul 27, 2004, 3:37 PM
Post #6 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
Oafy,
it seems like this topic has touched a nerve with you. with all due respect, i don't think bbziger's post deserved your jumping all over it. you're not the only one who's experienced depression, and its not necessarily helpful to assume its the same for you as it is for everyone else.
first, in pointing out that increased anxiety is side effect and not a main effect of anti depressants, you're in fact repeating what bbziger said. and you're right in pointing out that side effects like this can be dealt with, but they HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH. i believe the original poster is, after all, looking for a way to deal.
in shooting down the idea that depression or other mental illness can (in some cases) be channelled into something positive, you're turning a blind eye a large chunk of the history of art, and possibly the history of human endeavor.
last time i listened to Kurt Cobain's lyrics, it seemed pretty clear to me that a succesful stint of therapy or mood stabilizing drugs would NOT have led to the creation of the same songs. who knows if he would have written the songs at all? personally, as a writer and photographer, i find it hard to be prollific when i'm NOT depressed. researchers dating back to Freud have described art and music as self-medicating activities. before you take offense at any of this, please know that none of it has been said to dismiss the seriousness of mental illness. no one is going to forget the bullet in Kurt's head--but i'm thankful for his music.
But anyway, some others from the history books who are widely acknowledged as being fueled by some form of mental illness:
Beethoven
Van Gogh
Sid Barett
Peter Green
Cole Porter
Charles Mingus
Jaco Pastorius*
Sylvia Plath
Virginia Wolf
Ernest Hemingway
*Jaco was in fact bipolar. an interesting footnote with him is that when he was finally treated with lithium, his mood stabilized, but he stopped composing and playing. he ended up actually prefering self-medication with alcohol, cocaine, music, and the self-destructive behavior that in the end killed him.
here are a couple of articles that speculate further:
http://talentdevelop.com/Page91.html
http://www.angelfire.com/home/bphoenix1/creativity.html
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/reporter/?ID=460
the artist connection is an old one. i'd be very curious to see any connections bettween depression and climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
oafy
Jul 27, 2004, 4:16 PM
Post #7 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 102
|
paulraphael:
Dude I totally understand when you can channel postive energy into something creative, and I totally understand where Kurt Cobains music comes from. And where some much of the worlds artists, authors of some of the most amaizng poetry and novels comes from. I'm a writer and musician my self, and when I was depressed I could write amazing words and music. Maybe the way I wrote things you misunderstood, and maybe it was too much on a personal level I wrote. Cause when I was really fucked up depressed, on the verge of losing my sanity, I couldn't leave my room, I could't write, I couldn't play music. Most importantly I couldn't climb. I already wrote the poster of this article a PM, of how I over came depression, my disorder and how I'm drug free and living a totally healthy life, with my ups and downs even if they can be extreme. Anyways thanks for trying to put me in my place, but I'm sticking with what I wrote.
All the best and safe travels on high!
|
|
|
|
|
zozo
Jul 27, 2004, 4:25 PM
Post #8 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2004
Posts: 3431
|
In reply to: Cause when I was really f--- up depressed, on the verge of losing my sanity, I couldn't leave my room, I could't write, I couldn't play music. Most importantly I couldn't climb. I already wrote the poster of this article a PM, of how I over came depression, my disorder and how I'm drug free and living a totally healthy life, with my ups and downs even if they can be extreme.
Congrats chief! I think it takes alot of character and alot of inner strength (more than most people can imagine) to deal with it head on without using chemicals.
|
|
|
|
|
mother_sheep
Jul 27, 2004, 4:34 PM
Post #9 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 3984
|
I take Effexor and Zanex for anxiety. I am above 11k' at some point or another every weekend. As far as the affects of my meds at altitude, I haven't noticed anything different, nothing negative anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
bbziger
Jul 27, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #10 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 92
|
Oafy, Paulraphael is right. I touched a nerve with you. You personalized my comments. I was not talking about you specifically.
Over the last six years, I've treated hundreds of people who have depression. I'm basing my comments on my observation that depression is a uniquely individual experience. While the major symptoms are similar, depression manifests itself in a myriad of ways, depending on the person's biology, culture, personality, and life experiences.
In reply to: Yes being on Prozac can increase your anxiety... But this is a side effect.
That’s exactly what I said.
In reply to: I think you have this mixed up, KURT COBAIN SHOT HIMSELF, how did he turn his energy into a positive one?
I think you know the answer to that one. Yes, ultimately he committed suicide. I did not say that his music cured his depression, or in any way mitigated its severity, I just said that it was a positive outlet for his negative feelings.
In reply to: When your clinically depressed and on anti-depressents its usually there to help you find your drive. When your depressed you have no drive.
That was true in your case. Most people with a severe depression lose their motivation. They are often fatigued, isolate, and are not able to enjoy activities that they once enjoyed. Many climbers would lose their drive to climb if they became seriously depressed. But I was not referring to ALL people. Notice my use of the phrase “some people.” There are those whose creativity and other pursuits are driven by depression. Depression varies in severity, and different people experience it in different ways.
In reply to: ...when your depressed it doesn't mean you wanna say f--- it and charge up a sketchy run out.
Again, that’s your experience of depression. But not everyone’s. Some people who feel that they don’t have much to live for, who don’t see a happy future for themselves, will be more likely to take risks. The average person with depression is not going to be out free-soloing routes. I just offered this as a consideration for the original poster. The poster knows him/herself and if this applies to him/her.
There is at least one noted mountaineer who has written about the role of depression in his climbing. If I find the link to the article I read about him, I will post it.
BBB
|
|
|
|
|
oafy
Jul 27, 2004, 7:40 PM
Post #11 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 102
|
bbziger.
Dude I know you weren't talking about me personally, did you check out my other post. I agreed with alot of what Paulraphael said. I totally understand what you said in your post. And what I wrote was nothing to do with my case at all, so I wouldn't write
bbziger wrote:In reply to: That was true in your case
Another thing you said
bbziger wrote:
In reply to: Again, that’s your experience of depression. But not everyone’s
And you said you treated people, so your probably a doctor or a shrink.
Maybe you shoud be a little more compassionite to this subject.
I'll state it again, as of now I'm drug free, living a totally healthy lifestyle. And wish all the best to the climbers out there who suffer from bi-polar disorder, depression, anxiety, or any other type of mental illness.
Take care
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Jul 27, 2004, 8:11 PM
Post #12 of 19
(4190 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
call you crazy, but it sounds like it's all in your head
|
|
|
|
|
bbziger
Jul 27, 2004, 8:28 PM
Post #13 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 92
|
Oafy, you’re right. I don’t know you. All I know is what you wrote.
You made the following comments:
In reply to: …when I was clear not suffering from anything, I would run anything out, then when I suffered my first episode, you couldn't catch me dead on a sport climb or top rope.
In reply to: Cause when I was really f--- up depressed, on the verge of losing my sanity, I couldn't leave my room, I could't write, I couldn't play music. Most importantly I couldn't climb.
Based on your comments, I thought I could safely say that your depression led to a loss of drive and your depression did not cause you to seek risks or run out routes. That’s all I said. Nothing to get defensive about.
Sorry if I did not appear compassionate. However, you may want to think about how people will respond to you when you start posts with comments like this:
In reply to: Dude before you write stupid things, I think you should do some research, who ever posted this response has no idea what there talking about.
BBB
|
|
|
|
|
oafy
Jul 27, 2004, 8:46 PM
Post #14 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 102
|
Okay Okay you got me bbziger. I'm the bigger dick in this whole thread, but enough sand baggen already. I'm cool if your cool!.
Lets just be friends, and if I ever go loopy again and need some help I'll PM you. And if your ever in ontario, and wanna do some climbing give me a PM. I climb anything and everything!
Take Care and safe travels on high!
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jul 27, 2004, 9:00 PM
Post #15 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Back to the original idea,
Climbed on Serzone, no problem.
Climbed on Effexor, felt like I was choking and couldn't breathe well.
Climbed on Lexapro, felt wired and strong, but couldn't sleep or sh!t right.
Climbing, along with other extreme exertions, seems to help me deal with depression better than just about anything most of the time.
Serzone is the one antidepressant that helped me, the rest I mentioned and a few others were worse than the disease.
|
|
|
|
|
jl
Jul 27, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #16 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2004
Posts: 19
|
Ok,
anxiety, anti-depressants, attitude, and altitude. Like religion, use whatever works best for you, don't be influenced by others.
My two cents worth.
If ony closed minds came with closed mouths...
|
|
|
|
|
stellanole
Jul 27, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #17 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 43
|
when i took Lexapro for my anxiety, i never felt any different levels of anxiety than i always had before climbing.
now i take zoloft, and haven't climbed since i switched...so who knows! but dirtineye....sounds like lexapro was to you, like the zoloft is to me! DAMN IT TEARS ME UP! i think they put laxatives in those drugs!! :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
harihari
Jul 9, 2005, 11:42 PM
Post #18 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2004
Posts: 182
|
to whoever the OP was on this thread--
I took Effexor for one year when I got diagnosed with depression. It improved my lead head to the point where I felt zero fear and did some really stoopid s**t (I am mainly a trad climber and I freesolo sometimes).
Then I went off Effexor and healthy kick-ass fear returned. In terms of guts, it was as if my time climbing on Effexor had allowed my "real" lead head to atrophy. Because I hadn't been exposed to-- and so forced to deal with-- fear, I'd lost some of my "guts."
I then went on Moclobemide, which is a better fit. It manages the worst symptoms of depression but it leaves my emotions pretty much intact, so I am back to feeeling good and scared on trad climbs at my limit/run out.
My lesson: these drugs work differently on different people, and it's important to experience all emotions. Like muscles and brains, we develop our ability to experience emotions (in productive ways) by...actually experiencing them. Contrary to popular opinion, btw, depression isn't feeling "bad"-- it's feeling NOTHING.
chris
|
|
|
|
|
jsj42
Jul 10, 2005, 12:46 AM
Post #19 of 19
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 24, 2002
Posts: 374
|
Aside from the squabbling, this has been a good thread. One thing I've appreciated is just hearing from so many people who have wrestled with depression and/or anxiety - it's always good to know you're not alone, even if your particular struggle is unique.
I too have been dealing with major depression and anxiety for some time now - it became especially acute in the last year or so and now, with a lot of hard work and a good bit of luck, has lifted quite a bit. Here are some of my thoughts on it with specific attention to how it relates to climbing.
In reply to: Most people with a severe depression lose their motivation. They are often fatigued, isolate, and are not able to enjoy activities that they once enjoyed. Many climbers would lose their drive to climb if they became seriously depressed.
These classic symptoms of fatigue, isolation, and inability to enjoy life described me perfectly. These symptoms were usually a response to constant, paralyzing anxiety (for those who don't know what that is, in my case, it was obsessive thoughts and worries that would forceably exclude all other thoughts and prevent any relaxation or "rest" whatsoever). Usually sleep was the only thing that would silence the "spinning wheels." Early on though, I thought climbing was another release - it engaged me on so many levels that I could actually be conscious and awake and not full of the obsessive thoughts, but, unfortunately, climbing isn't a restful activity - runnouts, stress, and exertion take their toll too. I couldn't find the rest/escape that I needed in climbing, and eventually even climbing ceased being enjoyable for me.
But how did it effect my actual performance? Not much:
In reply to: Some people who feel that they don’t have much to live for, who don’t see a happy future for themselves, will be more likely to take risks. The average person with depression is not going to be out free-soloing routes.
Well, this wasn't me at all. When things were at their worst, I was certainly suicidal, but as much as I wanted to die, the idea of dying climbing seemed like a horrifying prospect! Having depression didn't prevent me from experiencing the fears, adrenaline rushes, or other "gut" responses that people have climbing, and surely a planned or unplanned fall would be an awful thing to experience. Ironically, one of the things that probably kept me from killing myself was how difficult it actually is to do! I can certainly remember cursing the fact that it wasn't easier.
Many of my partners would consider me a pretty bold climber and leader - and I've done some risky climbs in my short climbing career, but I've always felt that I've approached them in a very sane, rational way - weighing the risks and making sure that I was in control and capable, and doing the best to stack the odds in my favor. My risk-taking is certainly not fueled by depression but rather because I enjoy challenging myself at that level. The fear I've felt and inner dialogues I've had during run outs have all been very real and very sane. Only one time did I notice an exception:
Right before my depression hit it's worst point, I was leading a climb in Red Rocks called "Excellent Adventure" (5.11c R). I was on the run out third pitch, 20' above a few RP's and looking at another 20' of climbing before the next possible (?) gear placement, unsure if I was on route, and all this on continuous, intricate 5.10 face climbing. The old doubts and fears began to rise up, but instead of silencing them in the way I normally would - with a concise, rational argument (eg "Josh you are perfectly capable of climbing this, keep it together") - I simply said, "F___ it, I don't care if I fall." When I got to the top I was elated to have made it, but on the hike back to the car I reflected on what had happened and I felt sick to my stomach. It was the first (and only!) time that I ever felt reckless in my climbing and it scared me - I knew my depression had reached a new level of severity. I am thankful that I had no opportunities between then and the time I finally got treatment to be in a situation like that a second time.
Anyway, part of that treatment has been taking Cymbalta. I've been on it for some time and although there have been some annoying side effects, it hasn't affected my climbing (altitude or otherwise) in any way. Cymbalta has worked well for me, but the major difference has been c/b therapy. Right now I'm weaning off Cymbalta, but the work I've put into the therapy has acheived real (and I believe what will be lasting) results and for the first time in years my world has had color in it, and, more importantly, hope.
In reply to: There is at least one noted mountaineer who has written about the role of depression in his climbing. If I find the link to the article I read about him, I will post it.
I'd love to read that article if you have the link. It seems that everyone's experience with depression/anxiety is unique, and even though there are some common elements, the stuff I've shared has just been some of my experiences with it.
One thing I will say is that it took me a long, long time to see depression as a disease and not as some sort of personality trait or flaw. It's cliched, but for so long I just felt that if I could "snap out of it" or adjust my attitude or not be so selfish maybe things would be better - afterall, everyone feels "down" and "depressed" at some point in their lives. But the truth is major depression should not be categorized with normal, healthy feelings (like being sad) - it's much more akin to having a condition like cancer or being paralyzed - and it should be viewed as such. The ignorance of people like Tom Cruise belittling it... There certainly is a mental component to it - and as I said before, in my case it has taken a lot of hard work to make changes in my thought patterns and habits to live a healthier life (probably much like changing your diet or quitting smoking) - but complete treatment involved not only that but also the help of professionals, modern medicine (even with all the nasty side effects), and the support of friends and family. Perhaps most meaningful of all has been talking with others who've been or are there, and having a great pet who's always excited to see you even at your worst :)
Climb on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
