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blacksamba
May 8, 2002, 3:05 PM
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The aid tech tip in climbing mag for June outright disses Dr P's cleaning with a Gri-Gri technique.
it does however advocate using a gri gri to jug with.
now to my poor little mind it seems to me that cleaning with a gri gri would be a whole lot less awkward then jug with one.
anyone wondering if any one esle saw it.
oh i would post the link to it but it hasnt changed on their website yet.
ben
[ This Message was edited by: atg200 on 2002-06-09 15:27 ]
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wallhammer
May 9, 2002, 1:42 AM
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look for dr. p's technique in the june 2007 issue. it's usually about that long before that rag catches up with whats really going on.
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tenn_dawg
May 9, 2002, 3:31 AM
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I'm glad I was not the only person to see that article.
Climbing magazine came right out and said that Cleaning with the Gri-Gri is akward.
I beg to differ.
I cleaned a trad pitch today just for the fun of it using this technique, and by attaching my adjustable daisie to the Jug, (I haven't yet found an adj. fifi) and tightning, you can get complete slack on the piece you are cleaning. In ONE MOTION!!
Way to go Pete, and ClimbChick. This is indeed the Better Way.
When do you think Climbing Mag. is gonna figure this out?
Travis
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iclimbtoo
May 9, 2002, 3:51 AM
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They'll figure it out once someone tells them. Why don't you write a letter and tell them?
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passthepitonspete
May 10, 2002, 3:19 AM
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Here is my Letter to the Editor which I emailed to Duane Raleigh on May 6.
Let's see if they publish it, eh?
Re: Tech Tip - Aid Climbing - No. 213 - page 88
After the disasterous Tech Tip that described how to crush your bollocks with your haulbag by rappeling the traditional way, I am glad to see that someone is finally "getting it" and has published the Better Way to clean an aid pitch using a Grigri [no] as an ascender. This is especially bitchin' when you lift your jug over the piece you are about to clean, transfer your weight to the jug by hooking into it with your adjustable fifi, and then open the lever on your Grigri to release slack into your rope so you can clean the piece. No more fighting a tight rope with that lower jug!
Using the Grigri in this manner, however, is emphatically not the Better Way to jug a fixed rope. Unless you are on a lower-angled face or slab, and can run up it with the traditional Yosemite jugging system, the Better Way to jug a fixed rope remains the Petzl Frog system, known and used by virtually all cavers yet paradoxically by very few climbers.
As a weiner-armed life insurance agent who happens to solo El Cap on his holidays, I can vouch for the Petzl Frog system as I leap off the couch and fly past large-muscled Big Wall Theorists who struggle in their jugs attempting other less efficient methods.
Cheers,
"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
aka "Dr. Piton"
38-1178 Kelsey Court
Oakville, Ontario
CANADA, eh?
L6H 5E1
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bigwalling
May 10, 2002, 5:26 PM
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Tell me what is wrong here.Gri Gri. They can't even put the right text with the right pictures. Shame on them!
[ This Message was edited by: bigwalling on 2002-05-10 10:32 ]
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dsafanda
May 10, 2002, 5:57 PM
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Climbing mag definitely claims that the Gri-Gri rig is too awkward for cleaning pitches and I've talked to others that agree. Then again, if Pete swears by it, it is probably worth experimenting with. That's one of the great things about aid climbing isn't it? Everyone gets to develop their own personal system over time. It's not nearly as uninspired an art as many "sport" only climbers think it is.
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-05-10 11:03 ]
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fishbait
May 10, 2002, 6:00 PM
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I don't understand the problem. I read the article and Dr. P's advice. Aren't they the same thing? Dr. P's link to the chick in Illinois describes the same system shown in the article. How does Climbing diss his system?
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dsafanda
May 10, 2002, 6:02 PM
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No...they're not saying the same thing.
Directly from Climbing...
"...the Gri-Gri ascender system is too awkward to use on traversing ropes or for cleaning pitches..."
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-05-10 11:04 ]
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-05-10 11:04 ]
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fishbait
May 10, 2002, 10:18 PM
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Thanks Dsafanda. I myself don't totally disagree with Climbing. The Gri-Gri system works really great in certain situations, namely vertical ropes, but lacks in others. The following quote comes from Dr. P's description of cleaning a traverse,
"on a dead horizontal traverse it may actually be easier to clean the thing using your aiders. In this instance you will actually aid along on the aiders using your jug(s) and Gri-gri really only as backup..."
It seems the only thing that Climbing and Dr. P disagree on is the cleaning aspect of using the Gri-Gri system. I don't want to speak for Dr. P, but I'm sure he'ld admit that the Gri-Gri system doesn't work in every pitch-cleaning situation. Perhaps Climbing was just playing it safe. After all, they only said that it was too "awkward." I'm sure there are quite a few who might agree, and it sounds as though you (Dsafanda) may have already met a few.
This thread is just another forum for the Mag-Bashers out there. Good Luck...
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passthepitonspete
May 11, 2002, 1:44 PM
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In case you happened to miss it, here is More "Big Wall Theory" from CLIMBING Magazine.
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krustyklimber
May 12, 2002, 4:34 AM
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After having my upper ascender blow off the line while my lower ascender was open (while I was passing a fixed piece) resulting in a 15 foot+ skin burning fall (it burned through my gloves) I will never clean with two ascenders again!(I would've stopped soon even if I hadn't let go of the trigger, my back-up knot was 6 feet below me when I stopped. I was gonna tie another one as soon as I passed the pin!) I don't care what those guys at the mag say, I believe Pete's way is the better way!... just like his way of riding the pig... attaching the pig... hauling... racking... flagging your ledge... and most importantly (to me anyway) his way of soloing are all better ways of doing things! I wish I'd already known Pete, before I took that fall! It really messed with my head, and he would've made it so it never would have happened!
The bottom line here, for me, is this;
No matter where his "handle" or his methods came or come from, it is Pete who conveys these ideas to me, and he generally gives credit when and where credit is due. But I do not bother to read the mags anymore, yet I do and will continue to read Pete's writing, take his advise, humm his songs and even laugh at most of his jokes!
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-05-11 21:38 ]
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justsendingits
Jun 5, 2002, 9:49 AM
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:roll I met pete in the valley last year,and i learned more from him in 1 hour than I did in 3 years flailing on the limestone in Missouri!!!! He as insired me to solo big walls!!!
it is great 2 get important big wall beta from someone who has spent years perfecting it. Saving us years of torture!!Thanks Pete!!! Also I like to clip a biner thru the top of the jug,(oval biner)preventing the rope from coming out,even when I am just juging and not cleaning,peace of mind!!!
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couloir
Jun 5, 2002, 12:42 PM
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justsendingits: Three years of climbing on Missouri Limestone will only teach you three things: 1)the rock is horrible. 2)Many of the routes are horrible. 3)You can climb damn hard with ratings as soft as they are.
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hollyclimber
Jun 5, 2002, 3:36 PM
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Personally, I haven't tried cleaning with my grigri yet, but I have jugged a fixed line with one jumar and one grigri. It kind of sucked! It was pretty strenous.
My current cleaning technique is to use my grigri as my backup knot. Then, I should never take a big whipper if my jugs pop off.
The only problem with Pete's Frog system is that I already own two ascenders and parting with money is hard...I will have to implement other parts of the better way first, and then maybe I can unload my 2nd ascender on someone to get the cash for the system.
[ This Message was edited by: hollyclimber on 2002-06-05 08:54 ]
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full-time-climb
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Jun 5, 2002, 3:53 PM
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Has anyone noticed the 2:1 advantage on the Grigri in the "Climb" mag.
L8r
John
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passthepitonspete
Jun 26, 2002, 2:05 AM
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I use this 2:1 on rare occasions when cleaning, and have to ascend a free-hanging section of rope.
It is slow, but it is easy.
I do not use it for ascending - the Frog is better.
I do not use it for cleaning - simply pulling the rope through the Grigri is better.
Climbchick, on the other hand, uses this method of cleaning almost exclusively as she prefers the 2:1 mechanical advantage.
You can click here to see Yvette in action using the 2:1 Grigri for cleaning.
Hell, it's worth the click just to see her.
The hottie.
Dang.
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apollodorus
Jun 26, 2002, 2:33 AM
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I am the PERFECT person to answer this forum. I sat on the couch for 18 years, and then did the Excalibur with PTPP. In effect, I was completely objective regarding different ways to clean a pitch. I'd learned how using two grey jumars (GREY???), but quickly learned the Better Way of having the Gri-Gri on the harness.
Cleaning with a jug and Gri-Gri is not awkward at all, especially on a less-than-vertical pitch. Once you learn how to lean back as you slide the rope through the Gri, there is no lost energy or backsliding. It takes a bit of muscle, but hey, you're on a wall, you couch-loving, skinny-assed, no-account, can't-figure-out-which-rope-is-which, belay clusterf---ing flatlander with no business on a wall unless it's that rubber room that you belong in (that was my internal beratement; Dr. Piton never said a word...)
You sit on the Gri, and slide the jug up; it works just like the Frog thing. When the pitch gets steep, two jugs played normally and a Gri-Gri is better (for me; I had GREY jumars. How many of you have even SEEN those). You feed the rope through the Gri-Gri as a back up (I am a wuss, and in the old days would have used a prusik above the top jug). Then, when you need the Gri-Gri to lower out on a traverse, you either disengage the lower jug or keep it in the system. On a slabby pitch, I was using the Jumars exclusively, with no foot loops. But, when I wanted to knock a pin loose and whip to avoid lowering out, I pulled all the slack through the Gri first.
Doc Piton is a caver first, and a wall climber second. He KNOWS how to get up the rope. And he also knows that a little bit of "try it, you'll like it" patience (on his part) can work miracles.
Anybody who disses Dr. Piton's wall expertise needs to check their facts. Or their actual wall experience. He knows his schnitt. It works. And it not only works, it is the Better Way.
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