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bumblie


Aug 3, 2004, 4:49 PM
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US Patriot Act
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This bit of legislation has been touched on in several other threads, but one assertion (primarily by those on the left) eludes me. Namely, that our civil liberties are being taken away by the presence of this act.

Can some please explain how my civil rights have been (are being) taken away by this act? I understand that many view this as "the writing on the wall", which may open the door to our country becoming a police state, but I'm unclear how the US Patriot Act is taking away my civil rights.

Enlighten me. And please include whic specific rights are effected.


cthcrockclimber


Aug 3, 2004, 4:53 PM
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Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.

Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.

Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.

Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

edited once for format


Partner tgreene


Aug 3, 2004, 4:56 PM
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Re: US Patriot Act [In reply to]
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They can't, because unless you are actually participating in highly questionable and suspect activities that are perceived to be a thread to national Security, it actually doesn't...

Interestingly enough though, the 2 acts that actually do invade your privacy and infringe upon your civil liberties, are the Telecommunications Act and the Crime Bill. Both of these pieces of damaging legislation were put through under Clinton, with the overwhelming majority of Democratic support.

This tells me that liberals actually don't pay attention to anything except the (D) on the election ballot... No wonder the party's own symbol is an ASS! :tinfoilhat:


Partner tgreene


Aug 3, 2004, 5:00 PM
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In reply to:
Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.

Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.

Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.

Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

Each and every point you have stated, was covered in the post I made in another thread, about when I sent an email to Clinton expressing my dissmay... This was many years BEFORE the Patriot Act, but it still happened. It also didn't harm me in any way, shape or form either! :roll:


cthcrockclimber


Aug 3, 2004, 5:06 PM
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-Deleted


cthcrockclimber


Aug 3, 2004, 5:06 PM
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Did I ever say I agreed with everything Clinton did?

The title of the thread is the US Patriot Act and that is what I responded to.


vertical_reality


Aug 3, 2004, 5:07 PM
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They can't, because unless you are actually participating in highly questionable and suspect activities that are perceived to be a thread to national Security, it actually doesn't...

Actually that assumption is wrong. There was a show a while back that talked about some criminal who was busted for money laundering by the FBI by using the Patriot Act. Somewhere in there it says that they no longer need a warrent for phone taps and such. There's another part that says something along the line "... if suspected of terrorist activities or money laundering". The "or" makes a big difference.

The average American will not be affected by the Patriot Act. It basically gives law enforcement more powers to catch the bad guys. They make it seem that it's main use is against terrorism but it's used for crime in general.


bumblie


Aug 3, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.

Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.

Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.

Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

edited once for format

This has been in force for quite some time. Could someone provide examples where the violations (stated above) actually occurred, specifically where pre-existing laws could not have been used instead?

My point is that I've heard a lot of rhetoric about the horrible aspects of this law, but I haven't heard that much about citizens suffering as a result. I'm sure anyone can find some isolated examples, but is this really the widespread assault on our liberties that many would have us believe?


the_pirate


Aug 3, 2004, 5:11 PM
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This tells me that liberals actually don't pay attention to anything except the (D) on the election ballot... No wonder the party's own symbol is an ASS! :tinfoilhat:

Don't assume everyone that thinks Bush is an idiot, a war monger, a puppet, a thief, or a fascist is automatically a Clintonophile or even a Democrat.


Partner tgreene


Aug 3, 2004, 5:12 PM
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As I stated Bumblie, that very thing happened to me under Clinton's watch, long before the US Patriot act was legally put into action... :wink:

So, the only thing that has changed, is the actual legality of what has already been taking place all along.


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2004, 5:13 PM
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Section 215 is a real bitch. Simply by typing this, I've "authorized" the FBI to go into whatever records of mine they want. They don't have to tell me about it, and even if they do, they can forbid me to tell anyone else, including my attorney, who I won't have anyway, because I never knew that my privacy was violated in the first place.

But all of that is beside the point, isn't it? You obviously don't care how any of us feel about the Patriot Act, you're just curious to see how many of us are talking out of our asses. I don't know about the rest of the Dems on this site, but I for one did my research long ago.


Partner tgreene


Aug 3, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to:
Don't assume everyone that thinks Bush is an idiot, a war monger, a puppet, a thief, or a fascist is automatically a Clintonophile or even a Democrat.

The current Democratic House & Senate (while bitching about wars), have actually placed us in more wars than any others in history. Clinton specifically had us in more than any other single President!

I would rather have a "puppet", than a President that simply signs bills into law under "Executive Order", without ever allowing them to be voted on - Clinton signed many this way, thus actually creating a fascist dictatorship of sorts, all to the delight of his supporting Democrats.


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2004, 5:20 PM
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So, the only thing that has changed, is the actual legality of what has already been taking place all along.

Actually... I agree with this. That's why so many of us don't want the Patriot Act renewed.

bumblie, here:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/...794_mayfield25m.html

In reply to:
Portland's FBI Special Agent in Charge, Robert Jordan, said the error, based on a "substandard" copy of the prints, will prompt the agency to review its guidelines for making identifications and ask an international panel of experts to analyze what went wrong.

He also apologized to Mayfield, a former Army officer and Muslim convert who was mistakenly arrested earlier this month as a material witness in the March 11 terrorist attack that killed 191 and wounded some 2,000.

In reply to:
The collapse of the Mayfield case also is providing ammunition to critics of the Bush administration's homefront handling of the war on terror. Mayfield was never charged with a crime but was arrested as a material witness with possible information about the Madrid bombing. The use of the material-witness statute has emerged as a controversial legal tactic in the war on terrorism, and Mayfield added his voice to the critics.


In reply to:
Mayfield said he suspected authorities had him under surveillance and entered his home in the days before his arrest under the "sneak and peek" search warrants allowed by the Patriot Act. Mayfield said he and his wife noticed that a deadbolt lock they don't use had been locked and found other signs that someone had been in their home.


the_pirate


Aug 3, 2004, 5:23 PM
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Section 215 is a real b----. Simply by typing this, I've "authorized" the FBI to go into whatever records of mine they want. They don't have to tell me about it, and even if they do, they can forbid me to tell anyone else, including my attorney, who I won't have anyway, because I never knew that my privacy was violated in the first place.

Not to mention the fact that the patriot act basically sh!ts all over the Habeas Corpus laws. Anyone having disagreeable views can be classified a terrorist and locked up. No longer do you have the right to a speedy trial, or even a trial. When your family comes looking for you, they don't even have to admit to holding you.

I would think that 200 year old parchment would chafe, but our current government seems to enjoy wiping their asses with the bill of rights.


cthcrockclimber


Aug 3, 2004, 5:23 PM
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It's the reason and current situation of the war, not the fact that it is infact a war that has them bitshin'.


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2004, 5:24 PM
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Any time you hear the words "material witness" in regards to terrorism, you're hearing about the USA Patriot Act in use. How many of the thousands held as material witnesses deserved what they got? How many even had a chance to argue their detention?

Their rights are your rights. If they can be held incognito, so can you.


curt


Aug 3, 2004, 5:30 PM
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The current Democratic House & Senate (while b---- about wars), have actually placed us in more wars than any others in history. Clinton specifically had us in more than any other single President!

What current Democratic House & Senate would you be referring to?

Curt


bumblie


Aug 3, 2004, 5:51 PM
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Any time you hear the words "material witness" in regards to terrorism, you're hearing about the USA Patriot Act in use.

So, prior to enacting the Patriot Act, material witnesses couldn't be held?

I read the story and the only reference to the Patriot Act was Mayfield's suspicion that the FBI may have done a "sneak and peak" search of his home.

Obviously, the FBI screwed up. They released him as soon as the error was found and are openly eating crow for their mistake.

I wonder how this story would play out if Mayfield blew some up and it was later dicovered that the FBI didn't pursue the matter.

The point I'm wondering about is if 9/11 occurred and we didn't have the Patriot Act, would this man have still been "detained". To me, it looks like this was an unfortunate event due to the War on Terrorism, not the Patriot Act.


bumblie


Aug 3, 2004, 5:53 PM
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How many of the thousands held as material witnesses deserved what they got?

Thousands? Do you have anything to support this number?


Partner j_ung


Aug 3, 2004, 7:05 PM
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In reply to:
How many of the thousands held as material witnesses deserved what they got?

Thousands? Do you have anything to support this number?

Nope. Do you know why I can't cite a source for that number?

Because nobody can. Nobody, but the administration knows how many were detained. Nobody knows the names of everybody who was detained and nobody knows whether or not any of them are still being detained.


bumblie


Aug 3, 2004, 7:56 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
How many of the thousands held as material witnesses deserved what they got?

Thousands? Do you have anything to support this number?

Nope. Do you know why I can't cite a source for that number?

Because nobody can. Nobody, but the administration knows how many were detained. Nobody knows the names of everybody who was detained and nobody knows whether or not any of them are still being detained.

Do the Feds just wait until these "detainees are walking down an empty street, then drive up in their black suburbans and nab these suspects? So, no one will know they are being "detained"?

Maybe I'm just completely uninformed, but seems like we're being sold a bill of goods that the facts don't support.

A while back, someone posted a site that told the horrific story of tens of thousands of voters being turned away from the Florida polls in 2000, because Jeb Bush hired some company to purge all the criminals from the voter registries. I asked for specifics and I believe arretinator provided some links. From those links, there were a select few examples of voters being turned away.

Additionally, there were stories of blacks being routinely turned away from the polls in south Florida.

Both issues were repeatedly blamed on the nefarious dealings of Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris.

Several months after these stories were splashed across the headlines, after the follow up investigations were concluded, it turned out that neither Bush nor Harris had done anything wrong, legally or ethically in the Florida 2000 election. Yet today, many still believe the Repuplicans somehow stole this election.

My hunch is the dramatized loss of civil rights resulting from the passing of the Patriot Act versus the reality of the situation are completely different, much like the situations mentioned above.

Editted once for factual error.


bluto


Aug 3, 2004, 8:12 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
How many of the thousands held as material witnesses deserved what they got?

Thousands? Do you have anything to support this number?

Nope. Do you know why I can't cite a source for that number?

Because nobody can. Nobody, but the administration knows how many were detained. Nobody knows the names of everybody who was detained and nobody knows whether or not any of them are still being detained.

This is a crock, if thousands of persons were being illegally detained, logic dictates that thousands of families would be all over the media telling the media about their missing loved ones.


unabonger


Aug 3, 2004, 8:26 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't assume everyone that thinks Bush is an idiot, a war monger, a puppet, a thief, or a fascist is automatically a Clintonophile or even a Democrat.

The current Democratic House & Senate (while b---- about wars), have actually placed us in more wars than any others in history. Clinton specifically had us in more than any other single President!

I would rather have a "puppet", than a President that simply signs bills into law under "Executive Order", without ever allowing them to be voted on - Clinton signed many this way, thus actually creating a fascist dictatorship of sorts, all to the delight of his supporting Democrats.

Focus, dude. Focus.

I know its hard for you not to wail about Clinton but this is a thread about the Patriot Act. Maybe you can lobby for a Bash Clinton Forum to satisfy your obsession.

On to the topic this rom the ACLU:

Section 215 allows the government to obtain
– without an ordinary criminal subpoena or
search warrant and without probable cause –
an order from a court giving them records on
clients or customers from libraries, bookstores,
doctors, universities, Internet service
providers and other public entities and private
sector businesses. The Act also imposes
a gag order prohibiting an organization
forced to turn over records from disclosing
the search to their clients, customers or anyone
else. The result is vastly expanded government
power to rifle through individuals’
finances, medical histories, Internet usage,
bookstore purchases, library usage, school
records, travel patterns or through records of
any other activity.

UB


nirvana


Aug 3, 2004, 9:46 PM
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The ACLU has a good bit of info.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206

If you are really interested in why people might disagree with the Patriot Act, this is a good read.


bumblie


Aug 4, 2004, 11:46 AM
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The ACLU has a good bit of info.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206

If you are really interested in why people might disagree with the Patriot Act, this is a good read.

This site is currently down. Probably the work of Ashcroft & Co.

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