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qpang
Aug 11, 2004, 4:32 PM
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What does everyone think of this anchor?
http://www.mercurymessenger.org/Images/anchor1.jpg
The left piece is a piton.
The middle piece is slung around the chockstone.
The right piece is a large Hex placed securely behind the chockstone.
(I stitched together 3 pictures so you can get a good view of the whole anchor)
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corpse
Aug 11, 2004, 4:38 PM
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emergency rappel anchor here??
- that piton looks ick, and whats up with that cord? tail wrapped up around the knot of something?
- chockstone? choss-stone? I so wouldn't trust that.. that will go, and end up pulling the piton out.
- the hex behind the "chockstone" will simply help pry that rock loose.
- the top biner is in the piton in a way that appears to cause the biner to break when loaded downwards.
- the webbing for the middle piece is crossloading the biner - although for something like a rappel would be fine.
At least the stuff appears to be equalized. I hope to God this wasn't a TR setup.
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bishop
Aug 11, 2004, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: emergency rappel anchor here?? - that piton looks ick, and whats up with that cord? tail wrapped up around the knot of something? - chockstone? choss-stone? I so wouldn't trust that.. that will go, and end up pulling the piton out. - the hex behind the "chockstone" will simply help pry that rock loose. At least the stuff appears to be equalized. I hope to God this wasn't a TR setup.
I agree with corpse
...not a must for every situation but I try use locking biners on anchors
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b_fost
Aug 11, 2004, 4:53 PM
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2 out of your 3 anchor points rely on that chockstone. If it comes loose, then you might be in a spot of trouble.
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vegastradguy
Aug 11, 2004, 4:53 PM
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i cant even tell whats going on with the cord and the piton draw...
that chockstone look suspect, therefore the hex is suspect. if the chockstone blows, the only thing saving your anchor is that old piton, which i cant tell how well its secured to anchor.
that's a sketchy anchor at best. maybe as an emergency rap anchor...
note: admittedly, it doesnt look like there's many options here for an excellent anchor. of course, i can only assume theres not another stance 3 feet away with a couple of nice cracks in it.
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dutyje
Aug 11, 2004, 4:55 PM
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yep.. the runner is causing a tri-axial loading on the biner. That's a no-no. Fixing it would require a longer runner. I don't like trusting the hex behind the chock stone. That's not redundant. If the chock stone goes, the hex also goes, no matter what.
Very well equalized. I'd like to look for some better options, though, before hopping on. Sprinkling in more lockers would be better, too.
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overlord
Aug 11, 2004, 4:56 PM
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man, i wouldnt want to rappel off that.
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crotch
Aug 11, 2004, 4:57 PM
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This is really a 2-piece anchor with one piece being a knifeblade clipped suboptimally. Again, your cordellete cordage looks pretty thin.
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elron
Aug 11, 2004, 5:02 PM
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Tough to judge the piton, but if its not loose, should be ok. Looks like its driven all the way in. I'd reverse the direction of the biner on the piton to reduce leverage on the biner and face the gate away from the rock.
If the chocksone is bomber, that part of the anchor looks good. The sling doesn't look like its going anywhere as long as the pull is in the downward direction. In this case the hex is probably not needed. It really serves no use unless the sling lifts up, which it doesn't look like it will.
Looks like a lot of loose rock overall. Was this the best available setup? how about a nut or microcam in the crack below the piton?
Assuming I was happy with the piton and the state of the chockstone, I'd rap off of it.
Kevin
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keinangst
Aug 11, 2004, 5:13 PM
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I'd belay off of it--for a suicide attempt. More like a "cry for help."
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paulraphael
Aug 11, 2004, 5:28 PM
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i've never been in dire enough straights to have to use something like this ... and i've rapped off of plenty of single point anchors in the mountains.
the piton is a KNIFEBLADE. these are ideal for bodyweight placements only. (you can fold one by bounce testing on it) I cary them on some alpine routes for emergencies and rap anchors only. A fixed knifeblade cannot be trusted for anything.
as has been pointed out, this is a 2-piece anchor, one piece being a rusty fixed knifeblade, the other being a piece of choss. in other words, good luck!
check out my comment on the cordelette rigging in your other anchor post.
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oafy
Aug 11, 2004, 5:35 PM
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I've rapped off worse!
:twisted:
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biff
Aug 11, 2004, 5:43 PM
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looks like a regular Rockies Choss Belay to me.
I agree with the rest, the block only serves as one piece, since if one piece pulles, they both will., and that piton, would probably hold for rappel, but if the leader took a high impact force fall onto this system, it probably wouldn't hold.
The only time that this anchor would be in big trouble of failing would be be while the leader heads up from the belay, untill he gets 2-3 peices in If
I were climibing with you, and this were on a 5.6-5.8 I'd have no complaints, because I know it is probably as good as it gets in this situation.
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markc
Aug 11, 2004, 5:49 PM
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It looks like options were limited, but I'll still throw in 2¢. The fixed pin may very well be your strongest piece, which is saying something. The slung block looks sketchy, and you have the webbing slung high. This is going to create leverage on the block, which doesn't look like it will help matters. I'd at least try to slip a sling through the lower portion of the block (underneath the contact on the right side). The hex is pointless. If you were using the hex to wedge in the webbing, it may be serving some function. That doesn't seem to be the case, but it's hard to tell. It may suffice for an emergency rappel, but I'd think light thoughts and take it nice and easy.
mark
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bandycoot
Aug 11, 2004, 5:49 PM
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I've set up a worse anchor during a multipitch climb. Sometimes the options really are bad when on a loose alpine climb. Not that I'm that experienced or anything, but for some times and places that anchor could be bomber. I understand the constructive criticism, but all the people calling it a "suicide-attempt" or similar need to get out more... :roll:
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curt
Aug 11, 2004, 6:13 PM
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The limiting factor regarding that anchor comes down to the quality of the placements. Everything is "equalized" OK and the issue of triaxial loading of the biner, in this case , is BS. But, it is impossible to tell from a photo if that pin is any good or if that "chockstone" is stable.
Curt
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paulraphael
Aug 11, 2004, 7:08 PM
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it's impossible to know for sure from a photo, but i'm willing to bet there were much more secure options for placements right there or not far from there.
as alwaysl, critique of an anchor needs to be from the perspective of what's possible here and now, now what's possible in a perfect world.
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tradklime
Aug 11, 2004, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: Tough to judge the piton, but if its not loose, should be ok. Looks like its driven all the way in.
Fixed pins are dubious at best, especially knifeblades. There is no real way to judge whether the pin has rusted through. It could seem completely solid and pop under minimal force.
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claramie
Aug 11, 2004, 7:33 PM
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I agree with the others here. Could be used as an emergency rap anchor but I wouldn't be doing anything else on it and I wouldn't be happy when I weight the rope. That biner in the pin should have the major axis the other way so it doesn't get snapped above the gate. The chockstone looks suspect to me. Having 2 pieces there doesn't make up for the fact that the whole block is suspect.
CL
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topher
Aug 11, 2004, 7:41 PM
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i have belyed of anchors like that well climbing in the alpine were idea spots dont exist..... so if they were out climbing some scketky alpine line out in the middle of no wear with nothing elese... then i would say that its dodgie but exceptable.... if how ever these people were just out sport climbing i would be looking for somthing better...... again if there was nothgin elese its kind under the ok area... mind you there are ways to make it better... i dont know whats going on with that knot, and the pin could be cliped properly and also pounded in a little more.. the webbing thats slung around the stone isnt that bad....
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brutusofwyde
Aug 11, 2004, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: The limiting factor regarding that anchor comes down to the quality of the placements. Everything is "equalized" OK and the issue of triaxial loading of the biner, in this case , is BS. But, it is impossible to tell from a photo if that pin is any good or if that "chockstone" is stable.
Curt makes some good points, upon some of which I would like to elaborate.
First, the piton:
How many climbers carry hammers these days? How many test fixed pins? It is impossible to tell from a photo if the pin is good, but without a hammer to test and/or reset the pin, most "yank" testing will not assure you that the pin will hold. Then again, there looks to be enough loose rock in the vicinity to hammer on the pin and test it, although few climbers I know would be savvy enough to do so.
In addition to (apparently) being fixed, the pin is placed in a crack which is parallel to the apparent direction of load. Failure of such a placement is far more likely than failure of a pin in a crack oriented crossways to the load.
Now the chockstone:
Again, agree that the triaxial loading is not much of an issue (far more of an issue is, as others have pointed out, the way the piton is clipped).
Slinging the chockstone lower to reduce leverage is also a good idea. This could be accomplished with the same runner by draping it over the chockstone rather than doubling it.
WERE the chockstone loose, it still may be possible to make it into a (somewhat) reliable part of the anchor system by (instead of slinging it) using nuts or hexes on BOTH sides of the chockstone, equalized such that they work against each other when loaded, wedging the chockstone and each other in place.
Conclusion: I have belayed and rappelled off anchors this bad, typically in Canadian Rockies limestone, but only when no other options were available, and only after testing and/or resetting the pin, minimizing leverage on the chockstone, and/or wedging the chockstone in place. Were it a rap anchor, though, I wouldn't be leaving all that gear at that one station... might need it lower down. And I would definitely re-orient the carabiner through the pin, or thread a sling directly through the eye if rappelling.
Looks like good equalization though! :shock:
Brutus
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bandycoot
Aug 11, 2004, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: if how ever these people were just out sport climbing i would be looking for somthing better......
Who the hell has EVER set up an anchor like that when sport climbing. Use some common sense for gods sake! I'm always clipping questionable pitons at the top of sport climbs after topping out past the two bolt anchor...... :roll:
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mandrake
Aug 11, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Instead of tying three independent knots up the arms of the cordelette, I'd tie the whole 'lette into one knot.
The way I think this anchor is rigged (if I'm seeing it right) it looks like a shortened sliding X. Thus if one arm were to cut loose it would shock-load the remaining anchor. With the knots tied as they are, the shockload would only be from the few inches of slack before the knot up the arm of the 'lette catches, but on such a marginal anchor any shockload at all...yi, yi, yi!
Specifically, I'd pull all three arms of the sliding X to down until they're equalized at the power point, then tie them all together into one overhand or figure eight. That way if one arm cuts loose, there is absolutely no slack generated in the other two arms.
I always thought this was SOP with cordelettes, but I'm confident someone will correct me if not! Bret
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maculated
Aug 11, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Mandrake, I was thinking the same thing. It's got the tied off loops, but I would imagine that HAS to take longer than simply tying off the cordalette with one knot. Might affect the angle as the cords go back to their pieces since it takes in a lot more cordalette, but then again, those knots take up space, too, and I'd rather be sure that everything gets the same amount of force in the case of failure.
You know, I'd also put a slip not or girth hitch that block rather than run the sling and clip to both ends. A little more secure IMO.
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tedc
Aug 11, 2004, 10:58 PM
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Yep. Choss anchor. Pertty common in a alpine setting. If you had a pretty good stance I'd use it. (but definitely not let the leader clip it.) What's with the overhand knots. If you were trying to create some self equalization you were just wasting your time. This rig won't adjust at all. Would have been much quicker to tie a overhand powerpoint knot. Oh yea, cordalettes are pretty much useless in the Alpine world.
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