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wyattwyattwyatt
Sep 10, 2004, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: [ worst ridiculously high price (17$/day) confusing route tape all over the place annoying and unapproachable staff occasional loose holds in NY city, $17/day is a ridiculously low price.
really? how much do gyms in nyc run for a day?
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wyattwyattwyatt
Sep 10, 2004, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: Since you're thinking about opening a gym yourself, I'll tell you the plain truth. Up until recently, gym "B" has been the only game in town. They ran a quality establishment, but there were substantive complaints made with them. Unfortunately the complaints were all ignored. Among them: 1. Pricing plan - you have to either shell out big bux for a day pass, or huge bux for a season (or 6 months, or year) membership. How about a punch-card you could buy? Answer - no. Why? "No-one wants that." 2. Leading. Almost no leading in this gym. Oh, unless you're a member of the team. Why not? Safety. And because it's stupid, and no-one wants to lead in a gym. 3. Bouldering. Space was dark, cramped, and small. They actually did their best to improve this situation, though it was still dark, cramped, and small, with no topouts, and no free-standing structures when they were done. Gym "B" wouldn't or couldn't change. But someone else came along. He heard those complaints, and he built a gym that satisfied them all. This is now the best gym. We'll call it gym "M" Gym "M" has lots of leadable routes, from 5.7 to 5.13 (or harder, haven't looked). It has a punch-card pricing plan. It has tons of bouldering, including free-standing structures. It also has great lighting, great flooring, and even a place for the kids to go for their parties. And guess what, it's now the preferred place to go. This, even though "No-one really wanted any of those things". Riiiggghhht. So my advice: find out what the climbers in _your_ community want to see in a gym, and build _that_. GO
yeah, thats kind of what i'm trying to do with this -- i've had plenty of ideas for improvements i could make on the gyms i've been to and wanted to see if others were feeling the same way. i like the punch card idea -- i too get annoyed with the choice between high day prices and committing to long term membership when all i really want to use the gym for is poor weather days...
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deleted
Deleted
Sep 10, 2004, 4:12 PM
Post #28 of 59
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I feel bad for granite_girl, but some gyms have limited staffing. Smaller gyms that are mainly a bouldering gym with nobody climbing the routes and members only intersted in setting boulder problems tend to cause this lack of route setting.
I know that the gym I work at has one staff member when its not busy and two (sometimes one) when it is. This is not a real excuse, but we always welcome our members to set routes and we have even traded memberships for route setting.
I am presently the only one who sets routes at the gym and I hear too many is compliants. I am always open altering the routes for persons of differnt statures, but I am of the opinion that the squeeky wheel stops turning.
To add the the discussion on what make a gym the best is the people. Good people good gym. I have been to many tall gyms with great routes and awsome bouldering areas, but the members and staff were less than that and it made the gym feel poor.
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wyattwyattwyatt
Sep 10, 2004, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: To add the the discussion on what make a gym the best is the people. Good people good gym. I have been to many tall gyms with great routes and awsome bouldering areas, but the members and staff were less than that and it made the gym feel poor.
what was it about the people? elitist attitudes? lack of knowledge?
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jdouble
Sep 10, 2004, 4:26 PM
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Best Gym: Either Iron Works in Berkley California or the gym in the northeastern part of Paris.
Worst Gym: Don't want to throw salt. Sorry.
Things that could be improved at some gyms,
1. Staff. I understand the need for belay tests/lead tests etc, but some people are rude when it comes to testing. Maybe train those people well and make sure you have a staff member with people skills doing the testing.
2. Set something up for people to find belayers. Maybe at checkin they could put there name on a list or something?
3. Clean and well ventilated. I almost puked the last time I went into my gym's bathroom.
4. Keep the kids under control. I like them running all over the place but I know it bugs some people.
Hope it helps.
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Deleted
Sep 10, 2004, 4:30 PM
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What was it about the people? everthing you mentioned and more.
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karmaklimber
Sep 10, 2004, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: 5. completely clearing and resetting an entire wall rather than continually setting problems and minor changes to hold configurations
That type of setting actually gives rise to better quality problems because the route setters have a clean slate to work with. They can pick and choose new lines and every hold on the wall is clean, as opposed to being forced to take an unwanted line up the wall inorder to fill space, as well as having to co-tape a hand/foot hold that has been up on the wall for ages.
If you climb in the gym avidly and have projects set up there, find out when the route-rotation is to give you a time-frame as to how long you have to work on the problem/route.
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taino
Sep 10, 2004, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Good qualities ...
multipitch lead-climbing
... Multipitch leading in a gym? Really? How high are the walls? Or do the routes traverse a lot? Pat.
The walls were among the tallest I've ever seen; I'd guess 70 feet, simply because you had to be able to lower off the finishing bolts on the high-level, overhung lead routes with a 60m rope.
The multipitch leading was a LOT of traversing, as well as ascending and descending as you traversed. I think they were planning on 6-8 pitches, all along the upper halves of the walls and around the large, detached column. It required a separate, additional level of certification (regular climbing/belaying, lead climbing, multipitch lead climbing). Sadly, they didn't have anything up in my range at the time... :cry:
T
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taino
Sep 10, 2004, 6:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: [ worst ridiculously high price (17$/day) confusing route tape all over the place annoying and unapproachable staff occasional loose holds in NY city, $17/day is a ridiculously low price. really? how much do gyms in nyc run for a day?
City Climber's Club: $12, including gear
Extra Vertical: $10-$20, depending on whether it's Ladie's- or Men's-Night ($10 those nights for the appropriate gender), plus gear charges
Manhattan Plaza Health Club: $17, plus gear charges
Chelsea Piers, Main Gym: $50, plus gear charges; includes access to the entire (very impressive) facility
New Jersey Rock Gym: $17, plus (I think) gear charges
Go Vertical (Stamford): $17, plus gear charges
T
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mingleefu
Sep 10, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I'll echo the punch card idea.
also good:
-campus boards
-fingerboards
I visited a gym in Denver that had a campus board with something like 25 rungs. Unbelievable. I liked it. They also had this free standing square-shaped construct that held 8 different fingerboards. There were 2 on each side, one above the other, staggered so when using the higher board, you don't hit the lower one. Pick your favorite brand.
And, I think noone has mentioned this (surprisingly), PROSHOP. Stock that bugger to the brim. Particularly with shoes. biners can be guessed at, but you can't speculate on the fit of a shoe.
I could go on...
-A gym should be well lit. Don't paint the walls some dark color grit- just makes the whole place dreary.
-Good Ventilation. As proud as I am of my own shoe stank, I don't want the whole place to reek of that funk.
Here's a link to a gym I spend some time at. It's a shameless plug, but if you're looking at how to do a gym the right way, these guys have done a pretty good job (Although I do seem to find 2-3 spinners every time I'm there.) http://www.upperlimits.com
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johnclimbrok
Sep 10, 2004, 6:50 PM
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In my opinion, if you're not a novice a gym is for training/getting in shape, not for climbing - the best gym I've been to is Pipeworks - a Touchstone gym in Sacramento -
For Power:
- Campus Board is essential
- A System Wall is almost essential
- A seperate, but significant, bouldering area (as noted above) is essential
Hot chicks can be motivating, but they're usually what keeps that stupid ass hanging around talking about how he did that particular V5 -
For endurance: (quality of routes yata yata yata)
Long Routes are Essential
Steep Walls, or towers that roof into one another are essential
New Holds are sweet too
Student Discounts and Free entrance to employees of other gyms is a good thing for the community - (if you're a career kinda person then you're a paying kinda person)
things that suck:
dudes like the one mentioned above
most of the things everyone else mentioned
a boulder cave where you're gonna fall on someone or hit another wall b/c the damn thing is so enclosed
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tchamber
Sep 10, 2004, 6:53 PM
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Another thing the gym I like does, is it lets its members set routes. It seemed like a really good perk to being a member. I think basically if a route was 2-3 months old, you can reset it. Pretty sweet man...
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tim
Sep 10, 2004, 6:57 PM
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Touchstone gyms (they have a bunch on Northern CA, eg. Mission Cliffs, Berkeley Ironworks, Sacramento Pipeworks, etc.) have been among my favorites -- good staff people who actually enjoy climbing for the sake of climbing (vs. to impress people), lots of routes that changed frequently, good clean showers with hot water, and weights/dip bars/etc. for training opposition muscles (eg. avoiding turning your elbows into mush).
Oh, and they always seem to find some enormous warehouse in a beat down section of town to put the gyms in. They're huge. (10,000 - 17,000 sq. ft.)
You could do worse than to check out their setup and emulate it.
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salamanizer
Sep 11, 2004, 3:47 AM
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I prefer gyms with natural rock features. My gym has pocketed limestone, volcanic, sandstone and lots of cracks from 5.7 to 5.12 which you can practice and effectively teach people good gear placement on. Most climbs are leadable too. The natural fetures simulate the outdoors really well and help develop good foot technique. For a gym owner you'll find the best feture being that they look cool, which gets people pumped up, talking, comeing in and most of all, comeing back. A sinthetic Ice wall would be nice too!
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rbclimber3
Sep 11, 2004, 4:50 AM
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Worst:
-Bad tape on routes
-Loose holds
-Sweaty wooden holds
-Bouldering and Belay walls are the same
Best:
-Good Tape
-Plentiful walls and routes
-Huge Bouldering Pads
-Taller Walls
-Employees with Common Sense (There are some dumb people out there)
-Low Age Limit on Belaying (One time they wouldn't let me belay because i was 13)
-Helmets (In a ROPED GYM)
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climber4life
Sep 12, 2004, 5:51 PM
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-The sick overhangs. The come out like, 10ft. Twice on the same wall.
-The height. 40-80ft walls.
-The staff. Really helpful guys.
-The bouldering. VO's to V10's, and huge pads.
This is the centre I go to every week.
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cpaclimber
Sep 12, 2004, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: Best: 1. price = $8 to boulder, $12 to rope 2. excellent routes and clearly marked 3. big landing pads and clear of debris and people 4. approachable and skilled staff
yeah climbnasium!!
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hardrock_chik
Sep 20, 2004, 1:16 PM
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Good Gym
20m or higher
SOCIAL staff
range of styles of climbs especially technical
Bad Gym
evil Staff who: make you pay $30 for a lost biner :oops: and dont let you try for a lead license. :@
Lil kids everwhere crossing over 3 different routes on the wrong rope and hogging it (and them screaming) ie they hold bday parties
slimy holds
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brianinslc
Sep 20, 2004, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: There hasn't been a "best" or "worst"; each gym, so far, has had both good and bad qualities, including
Great list, I'll build off that...
Good qualities
high walls: like, maybe at least 40 feet.
interesting, wandering, tricky routes that aren't height-dependent: but not so wandery that they cross over other routes too much
lead-climbing: yep, and no snobby have-to-lead-at-a-certain-grade either. Tons of routes, all grades.
multipitch lead-climbing: nope, waste of space
separate bouldering area: separate and varied. Maybe two cave areas, then a bunch of steep stuff. Mega holds, all walls at least one v0 to pump out on.
routes by hold color instead of tape: I much prefer tape instead of forcing routes to be one color. And, with use, holds get dirty and color is hard to tell.
YDS instead of house ratings: yes!
NO KIDS: kids have energy, and, they can pysche up an ol' fella. I say yes.
interesting angles/chimneys: funky neat geometry is nice. Route setting much more important. Interesting hard instead of crimpy hard. Not easy to do.
friendly, knowledgeable staff: goes without saying!
reasonably priced: yep.
new routes on a rotating basis: but not tearin' down every day. Maybe every couple of weeks.
Gimme a crack to pump out on. Hand jam size, and, smooth sides ala lumber (two by 8 or 10). Sprinkle small holds outside it so I can do laps in my slippers.
Autobelay devices are nice on a couple of routes.
Lead only area separate from TR area. Plenty of low to mid grade leadable routes too (not just 5.11 and up) on all wall. Gimme that long, overhanging jug haul!
Variety of holds from different manufacturers.
Have some iron to pump as well as a few machines (and treadmill, stationary bike). I don't want two gym memberships. Weight lifting area can be small. Also, a stretch out area separate from the climbing floor.
Get the gym climbers involved in feedback on routes. Let them course set.
Good stereo is nice. Play members music. Not too loud.
Pro shop with area guidebooks and beta. Some juice/snacks too.
Host local events such as slide shows, ASCA, Access Fund fundraisers.
Clinics from visiting pro climbers. Free clinics to members.
Good, easy to see but out of the way storage for "stuff" (ie change of clothes, gym back, ie personal stuff not used in the gym)
Website with good directions, hours, prices.
Bad qualities
stagnant routes/routes that don't change: yep.
removing all routes from an entire wall at a time, instead of one rope at a time: big yep.
kids running around without parental supervision: little kids, yes, but, older ones, if they're climbing, are fine by me.
short hours: yep. Open early at least two days during the week. Stay open late all nights.
uncontrolled, technicolor vomit taping of routes: I much prefer tape so disagree.
routes that go straight up: straight up is efficient, but, with good route setting, can still be good. I dislike routes that traverse across two or three other routes.
route-setters who make harder routes by using smaller holds, further apart, instead of making one use technique: really agree. Limit crimpy, go for big, open handed holds.
gloss paint on the walls, instead of something upon which you can smear.
ditto. Cheap plywood is not as nice as pro textured wall.
mandatory gri-gris: agree. Let folks use an ATC or whatever, as long as they pass their test with it.
double-clipping w/ locking biners instead of tying in properly: Agree.
Brian in SLC
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hardrock_chik
Sep 21, 2004, 1:52 AM
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Couldn't agree more!
Actually, i've found a gym that has two bouldering caves, one features with problems, the other is just a room with hold in almost every bracket. It's great for laps and games such as take out and add three (sounds corny but really builds technique and flexabily)
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tor2
Sep 21, 2004, 2:38 AM
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I climb in a Brasil, and have been to 5 different Gyms (one in atlanta). The best one i've been is casa de pedra (www.casadepedra.com.br) the biggest in the Latin America.
Campus Board, finger board, Boulder cave, big pads.
Lead routes, different and experient route setters, diferent new holds. Skilled and helpful staff. good music, ventilation. Rotation off the routes, different types of routes (different route setters help, as they have they own stille and climbing experiences).
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sabu
Sep 21, 2004, 3:01 AM
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Best
HEAPS of features
cracks
small crimpy climbs
staff the walk round and check ppl's harnesses (for safetly reasons)
Worst
annoying staff
excedingly highprices
to many overhang climbs (pumpy climbs)
no features
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davidji
Sep 21, 2004, 3:10 AM
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Hard to pick one gym and call it best.
Mine certainly isn't The Best tm, but it has the best indoor bouldering, and the best indoor seriously overhung sportclimbing I've seen. Also good workout equipment.
Another I've been to had the really fun chimneys, including a bombay chimney. Good cracks. Reasonable climbing overall. Workout equipment. Also a very good gym.
One of the best I've been to was very tall (~60' routes), no top-ropes, no belay tests. Geared towards rock climbers (not to kids birthday parties, or top-rope-only gym-climbers), and this was one of the best gyms for rock climbers I've seen. The Entre Prises surfaces were stellar, with many of the feet on subtle features that simulated real rock. No workout equipment, and the bouldering wasn't my favorite though.
There are lots of good gyms, but I haven't been to any gym that excelled at everything (although I've been to a few that didn't seem to do anything very well).
wyattwyattwyatt,
If you're planning a gym in the USA, I assume it won't be like the last one on my list. What areas would you like your gym to excel in?
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chads93gt
Sep 21, 2004, 3:10 AM
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In reply to: I'll echo the punch card idea. Here's a link to a gym I spend some time at. It's a shameless plug, but if you're looking at how to do a gym the right way, these guys have done a pretty good job (Although I do seem to find 2-3 spinners every time I'm there.) http://www.upperlimits.com
Been there, done that, bought the sticker. I used to climb there when I still lived in illinois when I was giong to western illinois university. sucked that it was a 2 hour drive, and i sucked at the time i climbed, but that place was cool as hell. id love to go back when i viist home.
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jpearl
Sep 21, 2004, 4:21 AM
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Since this thread is now four pages long, most of what I would suggest has already been suggested. I would however, add this:
Accesability and Location.
Simply put, will your gym only be accesable by people with a car, thus putting a limit on your customer base, or will a larger number of climbers be able to access your gym via public transportation (trains, buses, etc...)?
Also, I would reccomend a location near a retailer of climbing and outdoor gear that can also be a local promoter of your facility.
And if you really wanna go over the top (pun not intended, but coming shortly), place a nice big real boulder out front or in back. Yes, a real chunk of rock, or even put one inside the gym. If you want to push climbers to higher levels, let 'em get the feel of the real stuff rather than just plastic and wood while they're still inside!
Good luck on your gym and please feel free to send me a complimentary pass.
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