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ricks308
Sep 13, 2004, 3:07 PM
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My family wants to start multi-pitch climbing. How would you multi-pitch Trad with these specifics.
Father. Only trad lead climber in the bunch. Confidant belayer.
Mother. Confidant belayer. Can follow leader.
Son 1. Can belay, but I prefer to have someone watching him while doing it. (for example, if wife was belaying father from mid-point belay, son 1 could belay son 2 up to the mid point stance.) Can follow leader but might have some trouble cleaning some pieces. Can sport lead.
Son 2. Too small to belay. Would rather not have to worry about this one cleaning anything.
Gear: We have all the trad gear neccesary. Each has an ATC. We can also carry a reverso and a grigri.
We can carry three ropes. 10.5 X 50m, 10.5 X 60m and 10.5 X 70m.
Assume routes are too long to double the 70 meter rope and simul belay two climbers with the reverso from the mid point.
thanks
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sandbag
Sep 13, 2004, 3:13 PM
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i like algebra word problems!
Father, Son 1 Son 2 and then Mother.
what do i win?
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roboclimber
Sep 13, 2004, 3:20 PM
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With only one person in the group that can lead trad, isn't this kind of a recipe for disaster?
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jkarns
Sep 13, 2004, 3:21 PM
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You will be moving incredibly slow, annoying climbers behind you, and feeling completely cramped at belay ledges. I cannot recommend you attempting this given the parameters listed. Somebody else in your group has got to learn to lead, and then you split up into two teams. Otherwise, stick with the toproping.
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bumblie
Sep 13, 2004, 3:24 PM
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Spend more time on single pitch routes teaching your sons the basics of trad climbing.
You can climb multi-pitch (as a group of 4) by you leading each pitch and bringing everyone up before starting the next pitch. This method is very slow and tedious. Any party coming up behind you is basically screwed.
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jerrygarcia
Sep 13, 2004, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: You will be moving incredibly slow, annoying climbers behind you, and feeling completely cramped at belay ledges. I cannot recommend you attempting this given the parameters listed. Somebody else in your group has got to learn to lead, and then you split up into two teams. Otherwise, stick with the toproping.
Dont listen to this man. If you feel safe enough to bring your kids on multipitch you can try this method:
Purchase a thin 8.5 rope for your second line. Find routes/areas that are not popular with the masses. Lead up the 1st pitch on your main rope, then belay your wife up, she cleans(unless their are traverses then she reclips the 2nd line through those pieces) trailing the 2nd 8.5 line. Teach your kids to work together on the 2nd line, one at the end one tied 10 feet above him. The other option is to have one of the kids take the place of your wife as your second cleaning and reclipping if their are traverses. The only problem is that whoever is on the second line will be simulclimbing but im assuming these will be fairly easy routes.
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crotch
Sep 13, 2004, 4:30 PM
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I think this way is simplest:
Mom belays Dad's lead.
Dad trails a 2nd rope and clips it through directionals.
Dad belays Mom and Mistress1 simultaneously on an autoblocking device. Mistress 1 trails a line and clips through directionals if appropriate.
When both Mom and Mistress1 are at the belay station, Mistress1 can belay Mistress2 on the trail line using an autoblocking device. Meanwhile, Mom can belay Dad while he leads p2.
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dougsabum
Sep 13, 2004, 5:44 PM
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I second the idea of having a rope smaller than 10.5 mm for the smaller ones. Those ropes might be to big for their little hands.
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cjcalls
Sep 13, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: I think this way is simplest: Mom belays Dad's lead. Dad trails a 2nd rope and clips it through directionals. Dad belays Mom and Mistress1 simultaneously on an autoblocking device. Mistress 1 trails a line and clips through directionals if appropriate. When both Mom and Mistress1 are at the belay station, Mistress1 can belay Mistress2 on the trail line using an autoblocking device. Meanwhile, Mom can belay Dad while he leads p2.
You get me My Wife and My Mistress Up there and some one will be coming down the fast way :oops:
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scottcody
Sep 13, 2004, 6:17 PM
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Dad leads on doubles,
Brings up wife and youngest at the same time,
Wife trails third rope and re-clip pro.
Mom belays oldest, dad restacks rope for next lead.
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phyreman
Sep 13, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I've done this two ways. The way that was already mentioned where the cleaner drags a second rope and then essetially has the other followers on toprope is the safest if you just getting the others into climbing trad. The other method is to have the first follower unclip each piece as he/she comes to it and when follower 2 is ready they begin climbing and reclipping each piece... sort of like leading a sport route as the pro is already there. Then the last person up has to clean.
No matter how you do it, it will take a lot longer, so avoid popular routes on weekends.
Nate
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asandh
Sep 13, 2004, 6:32 PM
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:)
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chugach001
Sep 13, 2004, 6:43 PM
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You scare me. For who's benefit are you doing this? How well practiced are you in self-rescue?
Having climbed with a partner who was KO'd in a fall - who's going to lower your bleeding a** to the ground and initiate a rescue? Listen, I don't want to be your grandma, but take an objective look at this. If you took this scenario to Vegas what kind of odds would you get on a mishap?
Hey man, it's your gene pool so good luck. That being said, I think there is some good advice above. Dad lead on doubles and using an autoblocker. Also, you may want to have Mom come last to help coordinate everyone. So Dad brings up both kids on autoblockers with the oldest trailing a line for Mom. Then Mom breaks down your achor and brings up the rear. Ditto rapping, try to get an adult first (to belay) and last, (to check connections and breakdown).
Good luck,
Jeff
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ricks308
Sep 13, 2004, 7:11 PM
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I guess I left off some info to keep the post shorter.
I climb 5.10 and I am exp. on lead and folowing. I have taken many classes including self rescue. I am teaching my oldest son the "ropes". He is 13 years old and shows great interest. He just started leading sport 5.4. (I think he could do more but wouldn't allow him any more than that just yet). He easily climbs 5.7. I don't know his limit yet because he hasn't been on 5.8 or 5.9 yet. (He almost got 5.10 two weeks ago out in Moab but time and light ran out).
The wife and son 2 (11 years old) can climb 5.7. They also need to be tested further, but I don't want to stress them. (Keep it fun and they will want to go again).
They all enjoy the climbing but at different levels. My oldest likes push things. The wife and youngest just like to climb within their boundaries.
The climb we are seeking will be in the 5.2 - 5.4 range. Not something that will be a stress on anyone. (Accept for the oldest son, who will be complaining about it being too easy).
Yes I have opened myself for injury if I am knocked out, since I am the only one with rescue techniques. That's why we're limiting our exposure by staying way below our max grades.
We've been top-roping all over the country for the past 8 years and we all think it's time to move up.
thanks
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asandh
Sep 13, 2004, 7:18 PM
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:)
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msbrenne
Sep 13, 2004, 7:24 PM
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IF you have to ask other people whether you can do it, then your not asking the right people.
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ricks308
Sep 13, 2004, 7:34 PM
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asandh said
"11 & 13 is old enough to learn proper safety procedures and anchor break down and cleaning. Get a Gri Gri and teach the boys to belay you with it. I still think one on one doing a 5.6 multi pitch is much better than trying to drag your entire family up a 5.2 ...."
Thank you. I agree.
So I guess I will be dropping off the youngest at your house to watch him for the weekend so me and the oldest can go get that good old one-on-one. : ^ )
Actually, that's why we bought the grigri. The oldest has been belaying me and cleaning routes (toprope and single pitch). But this has only been for a few climbs. We still feel the need for more direction. The 11 year old, as you say is old enough to start but shows no interest in belaying or leading. He just likes to climb. (Not someone I want belaying me).
It seems that alot of people here believe that everybody climbs every weekend. When you have kids there are a great many other things that make this rather impossible. Also, when you live in southern New Jersey, it winds up being a major excursion to go climbing. This just doesn't happen as often as I would like. There are many other responsibilities. We just like to climb.
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rcaret
Sep 13, 2004, 7:37 PM
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The best scenario is if the last climber can lead , They can pass the belay and continue the climb thus making rope management easier , If not the as each climber reaches the belay you have to keep an order so the ropes do not tangle, It is simple in theory , If you never done it you may want to have some one show you or practice on a very easy route .It relay comes down to rope management and keeping the climbers in such and order as no one drags there rope over anothers rope ,Pretty close to just two climbers , Four people = three ropes
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asandh
Sep 13, 2004, 8:12 PM
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:)
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johnclimbrok
Sep 13, 2004, 8:51 PM
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step 1 -father takes family out and lets them gain experience, in a methodical manner, on easier single pitch gear routes allowing them to develop their "gear head"
Step 2 - father goes on multipitch climbs with individual family members allowing them to lead some of the pitches
step 3 - 2 groups of 2 climb the desired multipitch route - everyone is happy and has accomplished something beyond being dragged up the wall...
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jaybird2
Sep 13, 2004, 9:14 PM
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The safety implications are numerous here. The belay stations are going to probably run you an hour or so each time you get everyone situated. Two bolted anchors (hopefully), some 200+ feet of rope, three to four people there, 84 locking biners, 56 runners... are you getting this... and it is all in an area of about 3 cubic feet. Three people with two ropes complicates things enough. And do not climb two kids on one rope. If one falls the other/both could get seriously injured. Can't believe no one said anything about that recommendation. Now one of the kids may be cleaning pro also... geez.
If you are experienced though, you can make it work. Only get on a two pitch route though with full vision of each pitch. I also would bring your wife up last to clean the pro and be able to climb up and help one of the young ones if they get stuck somewhere. If your wife is experienced, great, but if not, do you want her dealing with a hose-beast of a belay station with two fidgety kids when an emotional bout breaks out? A two pitch route will probably take you all day anyway with whatever method you choose. I doubt that a three pitcher would even be possible with the individuals and the time considered. Have fun, be safe.
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climbsomething
Sep 13, 2004, 9:32 PM
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4 people. At least 3 new to multi-pitch. 2 adults, 2 children, 1 leader, and only 1 belayer besides said leader who can belay without supervision.
Logistical nightmare at best, epic waiting to happen likely, serious injury at worst. Period.
But don't let me tinkle in your Wheaties or anything...
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aarong
Sep 13, 2004, 9:40 PM
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As you know, it's going to be slow going with 4 people, and while you may be able to make it safe for all 4, on a multi-pitch climb (by the way, how many pitches are you talking?) it would not be nearly as safe as if you were able to divide the teams in two.
Here's what I propose - work with your wife and maybe the 13 year-old, on leading at a 5.4 level if that is the max difficulty you intend to climb. If this is attainable, which I'm sure it is, have the Mom and older son climb together, maybe switching leads - or if Mom is more comfortable, have her lead all the pitches. You climb with your youngest son. Bring extra gear - enough to leave behind at the "cruxes" or difficult-to-place spots. Also - leave the anchor - if you think it would make it easier on them.
Practice on single-pitch stuff before dashing off to a multi-pitch climb. Also - are you all going to rappel down or hike off? This might be the more serious question if 3 of the 4 lack experience.
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barrel
Sep 13, 2004, 10:08 PM
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I saw something similar at Tahquitz recently: 5 people with 1 capable leader... and only 2 ropes...
...going up Fingertrip Traverse.
I learned quite a bit from their ineptitude:
1) Four or more people need at least 3 ropes.
2) Traversing routes should be avoided, especially when there's only one competent leader.
3) Large ledges at belay stations are key. 2 of them rappelled at the small stance before the traverse, thankfully.
4) Walkie talkies come in handy when managing a larger group.
5) Common sense and a little empathy for other climbers is nice. Yes, you will be slower than the average group of 2, but that shouldn't keep you from enjoying the great routes in your area. If you can, try to pick routes that allow other groups to pass you on neighboring terrain, and be willing to let other pass/start ahead of you. These people, on one of the best moderate routes in the area, were perfectly unwilling to do so, and angered quite a few climbers that day.
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a3webhog
Sep 13, 2004, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: Yes I have opened myself for injury if I am knocked out, since I am the only one with rescue techniques. That's why we're limiting our exposure by staying way below our max grades.
What happens if you get injured and your family is stranded several pitches up with zero ability to rescue themselves?
In reply to: It seems that alot of people here believe that everybody climbs every weekend. When you have kids there are a great many other things that make this rather impossible. ... This just doesn't happen as often as I would like. There are many other responsibilities. We just like to climb.
As a father of two, I understand your position. But I'd caution you to take the time to ensure the safety of your family. They don't know any better, but you do. Pretty soon, your son will be able to lead and your wife and son2 will be competent belayers and trad cleaners. I'd counsel for patience.
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