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miklaw
Sep 10, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I worked out that : -
1) if you take the weight rather than have your second tensuion you, there's about 30% less load on the gear.
2) don't do it till you're below the gear (it's hard to avoid puilling outwards when you're above).
3)If it's really bad you might be able to flick it out once you're down
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chronicle
Sep 10, 2004, 6:31 PM
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If you can flick it out once you are down, would you really want to trust it to be lowered from?!?!?
I would have no issue with throwing in something more bomber, and leaving it, rather than lowering off of something I know is bad. If you are below the gear, then chances are you downclimbed to it (from your description), so why not try to put in some better placements to lower from?
edited for poor grammer
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sonso45
Sep 10, 2004, 6:48 PM
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I lowered off a small nut on the Scenic Cruise while trying an alternative to the dreaded pegmatite traverse. Rock & Ice recommended going up the crack then L to the main route. My partner couldn't find any way to continue so he lowered off his gear. I followed, pulling all the gear til the end, that's when I noticed the nut with metal showing past the edges of the small crack. As I was lowered, the fall potential grew and so did my faith in God. When I made it down, the traverse seemed like cake. Today, I still can't think of an alternative to lowering from a lousy nut and praying for salvation.
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chronicle
Sep 10, 2004, 7:00 PM
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Couldn't you put in another nut, or a small cam above or below the bad one then clip the rope into both? At least then you would have a backup.
(not trying to be an A$$ or anything, just asking as this has yet to happen to me)
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gunkiemike
Sep 11, 2004, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: ...scary tale snipped... Today, I still can't think of an alternative to lowering from a lousy nut and praying for salvation.
Too bad you cleaned the gear. If you are lowering off a lead, put a prusik knot (or better , TWO) on the UPWARDS strand of the rope. Use the strongest cord you have. I used to have some 5.5 mm Spectra on my harness that would be good. Anyway, clip or girth hitch the prusik sling to your harness, and then work this knot down the upwards strand as you are lowered. That way, if the top gear blows, there is SOME chance that your belayer will catch you. But it's essentially a lead fall onto a prusik, so it's dicey at best. But hey, any port in a storm.
Yet another reason to have a pair of friction knot slings on your harness at all times.
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kman
Sep 11, 2004, 1:38 AM
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If that's all you have is a sh!tty piece in to lower off of then it's probably a better idea to practice your down climbing skills and use the piece as a not so reliable back up.
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jerrygarcia
Sep 11, 2004, 3:22 AM
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In reply to: I would have no issue with throwing in something more bomber, and leaving it, rather than lowering off of something I know is bad
Same
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flamer
Sep 11, 2004, 4:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...scary tale snipped... Today, I still can't think of an alternative to lowering from a lousy nut and praying for salvation. Too bad you cleaned the gear. If you are lowering off a lead, put a prusik knot (or better , TWO) on the UPWARDS strand of the rope. Use the strongest cord you have. I used to have some 5.5 mm Spectra on my harness that would be good. Anyway, clip or girth hitch the prusik sling to your harness, and then work this knot down the upwards strand as you are lowered. That way, if the top gear blows, there is SOME chance that your belayer will catch you. But it's essentially a lead fall onto a prusik, so it's dicey at best. But hey, any port in a storm. Yet another reason to have a pair of friction knot slings on your harness at all times.
What an excellent post.
I just learned a cool new trick thanks!
Also a very opportune time for me to get the "rate this post" thing- ding this rocks....
josh
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far_east_climber
Sep 11, 2004, 6:04 AM
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Thanks for the tip 8^)
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euroford
Sep 11, 2004, 3:06 PM
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cool, that is a sweet trick, i never though if that!
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 11, 2004, 4:21 PM
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Lowering and back cleaning off of a less then bomber piece is a really bad idea. Trying to back it up with prussics is even a worse idea.
The example where a leader left it to his follower to clean up his mess, was bad as well. The second left a bail piece anyway, that means he did not have to climb up to that piece and lower off of it. he could of just pulled the rope through it and left it.
Practice downclimbing and down aiding and cleaning up your own messes.
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magpie
Sep 12, 2004, 1:22 AM
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I swear I'm an intelligent person, but am trying to visualize how the prusik would help to arrest your fall... I understand the prusik concept, just don't understand how this helps when your top piece blows. I'm a visual person, so maybe something simple's being lost on me. Could someone explain this further? Thanks.
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dirtineye
Sep 12, 2004, 5:42 AM
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In reply to: Lowering and back cleaning off of a less then bomber piece is a really bad idea. Trying to back it up with prussics is even a worse idea. The example where a leader left it to his follower to clean up his mess, was bad as well. The second left a bail piece anyway, that means he did not have to climb up to that piece and lower off of it. he could of just pulled the rope through it and left it. Practice downclimbing and down aiding and cleaning up your own messes.
yeah, the downclimbing thing is right. Lowering off bad gear is stupid. Hell all my bad gear pulls out hehehe. Sometimes you're under some heinous roof, on a shitty littlel piece and yo ucan see it starting t ocome out, adn you just have to depend on your belayer and the next piece to not get totally screwed. You take out the good peices behind you in that situation, you could die.
Down aiding SUCKS, especially off an overhanging route, but if you can't downclimb and clean, you gotta do it hahaha..
It's better to aid UP the climb and rap clean/aid clean (yes you can aid clean on rappel) if that is necessary. Again, on an overhainging or roof route, this can really suck.
But lowering on bad gear sucks worse. A lot worse. Just say NO to lowering off bad gear.
PS, if you are going to aid clean, admit you are a wimp and use etries. Then it won't suck as bad. Aiding in either direction without etries is just goofy. I should know, I have too much experieince in this area hahaha.
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bustinmins
Sep 12, 2004, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: If that's all you have is a sh!tty piece in to lower off of then it's probably a better idea to practice your down climbing skills and use the piece as a not so reliable back up.
Ditto
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dutyje
Sep 12, 2004, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...scary tale snipped... Today, I still can't think of an alternative to lowering from a lousy nut and praying for salvation. Too bad you cleaned the gear. If you are lowering off a lead, put a prusik knot (or better , TWO) on the UPWARDS strand of the rope. Use the strongest cord you have. I used to have some 5.5 mm Spectra on my harness that would be good. Anyway, clip or girth hitch the prusik sling to your harness, and then work this knot down the upwards strand as you are lowered. That way, if the top gear blows, there is SOME chance that your belayer will catch you. But it's essentially a lead fall onto a prusik, so it's dicey at best. But hey, any port in a storm. Yet another reason to have a pair of friction knot slings on your harness at all times.
I thought Spectra was too slippery to use for prusiks. Neat idea, though, but I'd use the strongest nylon you can find. If you're worried about the strength of the cord and its ability to catch a lead fall (I'd also be worried about the prusiks shearing the climbing rope), couldn't you just tie a couple prusiks (everybody should have 2 at all times anyway)?
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pfc
Sep 13, 2004, 9:02 PM
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I'm with Magpie. How does a prussic from your harness to the upward side of the rope help you when the one piece of gear you are lowering off of fails? I'm clueless.
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miklaw
Sep 13, 2004, 9:08 PM
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Maybe I didn't make clear in the initial post: - this is only in the case when there are no other options (downclimbing, placing good gear etc).
One often sees peole putting themselves in danger, you can reduce a lot of the immediate risks by tensioning yourself. Of course it's better not to need to.
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joshklingbeil
Sep 13, 2004, 9:51 PM
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This topic reminds me of lowering The Roof at Pinnacles Nat Monument. I remember one good bolt and a flexen 1/4 inch rusted peice of junk. I betcha Its still their waiting to break.
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joshklingbeil
Sep 13, 2004, 10:46 PM
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This topic reminds me of lowering off The Roof at Pinnacles Nat Monument. I remember one good bolt and a flexen 1/4 inch rusted peice of junk. I betcha Its still their waiting to break.
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singlespeed
Sep 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
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instead of being lowered off bad gear, why not rap? the forces placed on the piece(s) are greatly reduced and it leaves you in control of the rate of descent instead of your belayer whom may not realize how sketched you are about the piece you'r on. although it does eliminate your ability to use the prussik trick.
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magpie
Sep 16, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Thanks philbox! Much clearer.
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