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col
Oct 20, 2004, 3:53 AM
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While fiddling around the other day with some new cord to resling some hexes, i tied a double fishermans knot, such that the other side of the lop passed through the centre of the knot. I'm not really sure how to explain that other to say look at hte picture below. I thought this might be a good way to sling the hexes as it seemed to keep the sling tidier, and minimise some of the bulk. then while discussing the pro's & cons with my wife, she pointed out that if the hex was placed, then clipped into the sling above the knot, rather then in the loop below it, the the knot could be turned inside out, unraveling.
I then had a further thought. If there was something preventing you from clipping in between the hex and the knot, that problem would be eliminated. So I did that.
http://colinshex.8k.com/images/no7_hex_1a.jpg
The cord is through light nylon tube. It has the added bonus of making the sling quite stiff, which may be an aid to placing it.
NOW to the bit where i get flamed mercilessly for risking everybodies life. I am able to take responsability for my actions, whatever i decide them to be. I am interested in weather anyone has seen/done this or something like this. Also what you think could be the factor to make this the stupidest idea ever posted here.
I shall await your input :)
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vegastradguy
Oct 20, 2004, 5:28 AM
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not sure about the tube thing, but that looks like a standard double fishermans to me....
also not sure about how a double fishermans could come unraveled?
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col
Oct 20, 2004, 5:35 AM
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if you look at this picture,
http://colinshex.8k.com/images/no7_hex_1.jpg
it might show it better. the coil part (the turns) of the double fishermans are tied the same as normal, however the other side of the loop passes through the centre of the coil. Maybe i need to make a little diagram.
it comes undone cause it is pulled out in a way that can't normally happen.
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tattooed_climber
Oct 20, 2004, 5:44 AM
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the double fisherman's is wraped the both cords?right, i believe thats what you discrible and took a pic of...
i'd have no idea....what reguardless of if thats safe or not...its an idea....which ideas always lead to innovations and and new techniques...right on
the nylon, i don' see, being a problem (its a pro)
but i have no idea about the strength of the way you tied the knot....
needs to be tested somehow (mechanicly)
OR
place it, back it up with a bomber peice of pro (or make an ancor just below it, climb past the 'hex' and take a whipper and see if the not holds..
OR
the more practical way (and the way you should 'test' it if you wanta know) tie it between a good strong peice of your truck or car...and the other end to something stronger thats made from steel and cemented into the ground good ..
...but i'm sure someone else will pull some physics out, and flame you for even thinking of something other than the double/triple fishermans not...
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vegastradguy
Oct 20, 2004, 5:44 AM
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ugh, must be late, i cant wrap my little brain around what you're saying.
at any rate, heres my thought: if a knot can come unraveled if clipped wrong....dont use it. perhaps others will have a more informed opinion for you....i wouldnt take my word as gospel.
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incogneato
Oct 20, 2004, 5:52 AM
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Sling is bomber vs. sling isn't bomber, reduces bulk vs. doesn't change shit...
...at the end of the day, you are still climbing with hexes...
:wink:
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col
Oct 20, 2004, 5:59 AM
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Wanna buy me some more cams? :D
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antigrav
Oct 20, 2004, 7:54 AM
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Hey, interesting twist (no pun intended) on an old friend there... My guess is that if this is not as good as the "normal" double fisherman, it's because the "wraps" are around something thicker than the usual single strand. (Here, two strands.) On the other hand, since the double fisherman is usually recommended for joining two strands of different thickness, I don't think this should matter.
I would use it. But don't trust me, all disclaimers apply...
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gritstoner
Oct 20, 2004, 9:11 AM
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all my hex's are slung on double fishermans. if you have tied the knot right then there is no problem. as for that tubing, whats the point? the advantages of hex's on rope is their flexability
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esoteric1
Oct 20, 2004, 9:17 AM
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i dont like the tube, you can sometimes find wierd placements with those where that would get in the way. like seated where the tube would be pointing straight up. without the tube you can pull each side of the chord on either side of the hex so the hex is facing up, but the chord is facing down. just something to keep in mind, also, you can tie the knot so that it will fit inside the hex, its not possible to do with the real little ones, but with most sizes that get used alot it is.
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cantbuymefriends
Oct 20, 2004, 9:18 AM
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I'm no expert, but I would NOT use it.
Reason: The Double Fisherman is a kind of "self-locking" knot that works because you load both strands of rope entering the knot. The harder you load it, the harder the two "knuckles" tighten up against each other, thereby preventing slippage.
Now with your setup, you will take away (a big part of) the load on half the knot (the upper half "knuckle" in your photo). So when you load the sling, it doesn't tighten up/self-adjust to the load, so basically there's nothing stopping it from slipping! :!: :!:
Think about it...
(Or let me know if I'm wrong.)
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dutyje
Oct 20, 2004, 11:39 AM
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In reply to: I'm no expert, but I would NOT use it. Reason: The Double Fisherman is a kind of "self-locking" knot that works because you load both strands of rope entering the knot. The harder you load it, the harder the two "knuckles" tighten up against each other, thereby preventing slippage. Now with your setup, you will take away (a big part of) the load on half the knot (the upper half "knuckle" in your photo). So when you load the sling, it doesn't tighten up/self-adjust to the load, so basically there's nothing stopping it from slipping! :!: :!: Think about it... (Or let me know if I'm wrong.)
Thank you for saying that! It's exactly what I thought last night when I saw this post, but was tired and ready for bed. I came back to the thread this morning and saw all the other posts.. thought I was going to have to post up. Then I reached yours. Whew. You also said it a lot better than I would have.
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2004, 1:22 PM
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The best way to sling hexes is into the garbage can. :P
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edge
Oct 20, 2004, 1:23 PM
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I have been using that same knot on my hexes for over 25 years. The knots have never come undone or loosened, and usually need to be cut apart when I resling. I've logged plenty of air time on them as well, so yes, it is safe.
I do not use the tube, though, and don't really see the need. It doesn't add any strength, and I prefer to have a thin profile there for fitting in tight constrictions.
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edge
Oct 20, 2004, 1:28 PM
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In reply to: The best way to sling hexes is into the garbage can. :P
While I agree that the larger sizes are best saved for self defense, I routinely carry up to the size 5 (about 7/8" x 1 1/4"). They seem to work well in the granite cracks up here in NH. The wired #2 goes in on almost every pitch.
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nheston
Oct 20, 2004, 1:42 PM
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In reply to: cantbuymefriends wrote: I'm no expert, but I would NOT use it. Reason: The Double Fisherman is a kind of "self-locking" knot that works because you load both strands of rope entering the knot. The harder you load it, the harder the two "knuckles" tighten up against each other, thereby preventing slippage. Now with your setup, you will take away (a big part of) the load on half the knot (the upper half "knuckle" in your photo). So when you load the sling, it doesn't tighten up/self-adjust to the load, so basically there's nothing stopping it from slipping! Exclamation Exclamation Think about it... (Or let me know if I'm wrong.)
This is not true...Since the other side of the cord simply passes through the fishermans knot, the knot can still constrict. This knot is just as safe as a fisherman's, but why not just get some wired hexes? They are about the same price.
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cantbuymefriends
Oct 20, 2004, 2:33 PM
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I thought about it some more, and was gonna write something like:
"I guess you could say that, in theory, the knot won't slip unless it's loaded. And when it becomes loaded it kinks down so it won't slip. And that's correct. In theory. Problem with real life is that it often sneaks around perfectly good theorys, so I still wouldn't thrust my life to it."
But, since Edge says it's tested and it works. Well, I just have to bow down to his experience.
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brianinslc
Oct 20, 2004, 2:37 PM
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In reply to: It often seems like the odd unforeseen circumstance produces an unexpected outcome. Call me crazy, paranoid, etc., but I have a fundamental issue with slinging gear on a slipknot.
Not sure how much slippage would occur, though. Hex traps the bottom loop pretty well.
Basically have a double fisherman's tied around a single strand...so...the knot could float on that strand...not sure that's a bad idea, though.
Some times nice to be able to clip a slung hex as a quick draw, if need be. Your shrink tape might prevent that as well as prevent the floppiness thats nice for horizontal placements not moving (vertical too, methinks). Freedom of movement might be more important than havin' a stiffy hex.
Under high loading, I'd guess there'd be some cord slippage through the hex (as the upper, biner end loop would tend to tighten like a slip knot). Again, I'm not envisioning that as a bad thing, though. Maybe kinda almost useful as a load limiter of sorts...(??)... But, maybe there's a chance that if the cord moved, it'd be more prone to tearing or cutting, too. Although, I'd think the angles around the hex holes would prevent too much slippage. Usually, though, movement of nylon on nylon isn't a good thing...
Other than that...I'd say add a tad bit of length to the cord ends sticking out of each knot.
Interesting...
Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Oct 20, 2004, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: But, since Edge says it's tested and it works. Well, I just have to bow down to his experience.
I'll bet he doesn't tie his hexes in the manner described by the original poster, though. That'd be pretty unusual.
I've a bunch of hexes, some over 20 years old. Have replaced the cord on some, and they'd never budged either and always remained super snug (started out life very snug, though). Bigger units I'd always put the knot inside the hex... Double fisherman's is a bomber knot, especially on cord that's been tightened down a bunch (bounce test loading snugs them right down).
I kinda prefer the wired ones now. But, the newer ones have smaller holes for the thinner techy cord, which makes them pretty nice. Beats rappin' off (and leaving) a cam! Plus, with the cord, you can thread the rope right through...
Brian in SLC
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edge
Oct 20, 2004, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But, since Edge says it's tested and it works. Well, I just have to bow down to his experience. I'll bet he doesn't tie his hexes in the manner described by the original poster, though. That'd be pretty unusual.
Actually I think I do, if I read his description correctly. I just incorporate the opposite side of the sling into the middle of the double fisherman knot. Once it has been bounce tightened, there is never any signs of loosening, slipping, or anything else that people have raised as concerns. When cutting the knots apart to re-sling, I have even inspected the cord that had been hidden by the knot and found it to almost look like new, with no fraying or anything.
I like how this knot keeps the sling together, and a bit more compact. The knot itself is minimally larger, but with the thinner cords that you use for the smaler hexes (up to #6) it is negligeable.
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paulraphael
Oct 20, 2004, 5:02 PM
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Here's the thing about knots: they often defy logic.
Every report I've seen on pull testing knots included some results that surprised me and also the tester.
The double fisherman's knot is pretty robust and predictable, as knots go, but I still wouldn't trust my life to a variation of it unless I saw that variation tested systematically. Especially since the benefits of your variation seem pretty slight (it looks cool??).
Someone saying that they logged "plenty of air time" on a knot is also not a reliable test. It tells you that the knot CAN work, but it doesn't tell you how reliable it really is. You have no idea what cord he used, what the fall factors were, how much rope slipped, how heavy the guy was, or how lucky he was.
The three issues with knots are security (how resistant they are to untying), strength (what percentage of the cord's breaking strength do they preserve) and stability (in what ways does the knot deform and let rope slip through before failure). All of these factors are completely dependent on the characteristics of the exact cord you're using. They're also surprisingly hard to predict without testing.
Personally, I don't trust my life to knots that haven't proven themselves with lots of real experience AND systematic testing. There are enough other things to worry about up there, and the regular knots work fine.
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hyhuu
Oct 20, 2004, 6:33 PM
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I use this setup on some of my hexes and didn't see any differences. But I don't carry them on lead anymore unless I know I'll need them. They are mostly for top-rope.
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meanandugly
Oct 20, 2004, 7:05 PM
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From what I see in your pic, it all seems fine. For many years I have slung my hexes this way and they have seen plenty of air time with no failures.
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moof
Oct 20, 2004, 8:32 PM
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Am I the only one to notice the too short tails? Also you didn't mention what kind of cord you used. If it's spectra then use a triple fisherman's. If it's nylon, then it's looks skinny. I think I first saw this know on climerware.com, and he called it a Dogvine. I use it on my hexes, love it. I also use it on my home made russian aiders.
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wlderdude
Oct 20, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Testing that is not all that difficult, althoug it will require a fun evening of breaking stuff and some expendible cord.
You are hoping to compare the strength and durability of your knot to the standard double/triple fisherman's knot benchmark.
While doing full strength analysis is expensive, comparative testing is cheap and easy. You simply have to put the two knots in a chain and take it to failure. Then do it again, and again and a couple more for good measure.
So go get some cord that you can reasonably break (perhaps 3mm perlon)and tie some knots in loops which hook together in a chain so that the weaker of the knots you hope to test will break. Tie it to a broomstick and a light post or a tree and your car, or whatever it will take to exceed the breaking stregnth of the material.
If your new knot breaks before the benchmark, your idea is not worth adopting. If both knots about the same number of times, you may be on to something. If your knot doesn't break while the benchmark does, HORRAY FOR YOU!
You can even do some cylical loading, bouncing and a few other types of loading.
If you make up a scientific looking report with a disclaimer where you deny any credible information that may come from it, you can make a real positive contribution to the climbing community. Perhaps someone with an Instron can do some serious quanititative testing.
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