|
kevindvten
May 27, 2002, 9:59 PM
Post #1 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2002
Posts: 12
|
Someone mentioned (in the post about 5.15) that 5.12 climbing is considered elite. That was an opinion taken from a book that I believe is a few years old.
That said, do you consider 5.12 climbing to be elite? These days so many people are climbing high grades that I'm skeptical 5.12 can still be seen as some kind of upper echelon.
Just curious what others feel.
|
|
|
|
|
spremegoat
May 27, 2002, 10:09 PM
Post #2 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2002
Posts: 37
|
obviously, as the sport grows and more people climb, more people will be able to climb at a certain level. I wonder if more climbers today, by percentage, can climb 5.12? This may be beside the point. It really depends on if your definition of "elite" means better than most people or if it means in the top 100 or so climbers worldwide. I can't climb 5.12 yet, so i think of it as pretty impressive.
|
|
|
|
|
climbchick
May 27, 2002, 10:30 PM
Post #3 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 808
|
I think of "elite" to mean something that only a very few people can do. Seems like a lot of people can climb sport 12s and 13s (me not being one of them). So I personally would consider 5.14 and above to be elite.
|
|
|
|
|
woodse
May 27, 2002, 10:46 PM
Post #4 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2001
Posts: 625
|
I think that the elite climbers are 5.14 climbers and above. The book "How to Climb 5.12" simply mentions that 5.12 is a level that, for most, is very difficult to reach. The book indicates that most people plateau around 5.11 and because of poor training are never able to elevate to the higher grades.
woodsE
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
May 27, 2002, 11:02 PM
Post #5 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
For what it's worth, I can climb 5.12 sport routes and I consider myself an old duffer. However, if you're talking about 5.12 trad routes, that's a different story. It may not be elite but if you're sending 5.12 cracks on gear you sure are smoking good in my book! I can only dream.
Maybe "elite" is simply that level that you imagine you'll never reach in this lifetime. Don't waste time worrying about grades.
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-05-27 16:25 ]
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
May 28, 2002, 12:02 AM
Post #6 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
Lots of people are climbing 5.12 these days so I don't consider it elite. But its a step in the right direction.
I think that 13's and 14 's are more elite.
Because you don't see as many people on these.
But you have to ask yourself what your definition of elite is.
I like Davids last qoute in the above post!
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-05-27 17:05 ]
|
|
|
|
|
wallhammer
May 28, 2002, 5:17 AM
Post #7 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2001
Posts: 265
|
in the dream world a 5.12 is supposed to be a 5.12 in the real world i have never come close to a 5.12 trad, in fact a few 5.12's i would just love to see someone climb. (we have a few classic 5.12's in my area of which i have never seen anyone do without being toproped and hangdogging). on the other hand i have come closer (repeat closer) to a 5.12 on a couple of sport routes (top roped) which to me means you are comparing apples to oranges. but in response to your post' yes climbing 5.12 (trad) is elite (to me) any of you 5.12 sport climbers that would like to show me your stuff in tahquitz (a trad mecca) or in san diego, drop me a line and i will be your belay bitch and take you out for dinner and beer.
[ This Message was edited by: wallhammer on 2002-05-27 22:20 ]
|
|
|
|
|
iclimbtoo
May 28, 2002, 5:48 AM
Post #8 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2002
Posts: 645
|
Well, I definitely think that it depends on what type of climbing you're talking about. I've topped out on 12a, top roping. I am extremely confident that I could easily sport it. However, tradding a 5.12? That's amazing! I've only seen a handful of people doing it out in Eldo. I would say for sport, no, 5.12 is not elite. Not even 13. 5.14 would be elite for sport. But for TRAD? Yes, 5.12 is definitely amazing. I'm impressed if someone is tradding 5.11 (which I'm still working on). 5.12 though is elite for Trad.
Stugs
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 28, 2002, 5:19 PM
Post #9 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
No, 5.12 is not elite. In fact, the Las Vegas Limestone guidebooks, calls 5.12a the top of the "intermediate" range. With dedication, most climbers can learn to climb 5.12.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
climberstephen
May 28, 2002, 5:23 PM
Post #10 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2001
Posts: 121
|
I find that there is a definate hump between climbing 5.11s and 5.12s. If you are strong and have some technique, you can climb 5.11s, but to push into the 5.12 range, you must really dedicate yourself and climb more than just once a week. But that's just what I think.
|
|
|
|
|
spank_spank
May 28, 2002, 5:33 PM
Post #11 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 480
|
Pulling 5.14 or V10 on a consistent basis is elite.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
May 28, 2002, 8:54 PM
Post #12 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
i agree with spank
|
|
|
|
|
benfieldj
May 28, 2002, 9:13 PM
Post #13 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2002
Posts: 61
|
If someone is leading 5.12 trad on site regularly they are definitely in an elite group.
|
|
|
|
|
spremegoat
May 28, 2002, 9:23 PM
Post #14 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2002
Posts: 37
|
you also have to take into consideration whether they are on sighting the climb or red pointing it. There is a big difference between a guy who regularly onsights 5.12s and someone who has managed to redpoint one or two after several weeks of practice/attempts
|
|
|
|
|
lemon_boy
May 28, 2002, 9:39 PM
Post #15 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2002
Posts: 287
|
very good question with some good responses. if you are working and redpointing 5.12 routes at your home crag, then it is definitely not elite. it is very good! but not elite.
however, if you can step up to the plate at any crag around and onsight 5.12 climbing in any style (and i mean ANY style ie. indian creek rattly finger cracks, vedawoo horrendous offwidth, steep glass slab, overhanging sporto, weird eldo dihedrals, technical face, etc) then you are DEFINITELY climbing at an elite level.
if not, you can always have fun anyway!
|
|
|
|
|
verticallaw
May 28, 2002, 10:16 PM
Post #16 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 21, 2002
Posts: 552
|
I don't know if I would considder climbing 5.12 sport "elite" but it does deserve some respect. When I ticked my first 12 I felt proud as hell and I will always remember that day fondly. But has it changed my status in the climbing community??? NO! nor should it. The community that we have is not based on specific ability. I have just as much respct for a guy (or gal) who spends 3 months fighting with a 10c as I would have for someone who easily sends a 5.12. The respect and the "elitist attitude" come more from dedication than from ability
thats just my $0.02
Mike
|
|
|
|
|
harry
Jun 2, 2002, 3:31 PM
Post #17 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2002
Posts: 15
|
i climb in england and wales, so i dont have a clue how difficult a 5.12 actually is
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
Jun 2, 2002, 3:52 PM
Post #18 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
Hey Harry here is a conversion chart for you.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/rankingguide.php
|
|
|
|
|
natec
Jun 2, 2002, 5:43 PM
Post #19 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2001
Posts: 667
|
I'll agree that if you can onsight 5.12 at a trad level, then you are the man or woman.
That's incredibly difficult. Most trad climbers will struggle and battle to make it out of the 5.10's. And even more (like myself) will be on a daily battle to break into the 5.10's.
Climbing 5.12 at the sport level is not as impressive as climbing 5.12 at the trad level. The major reason in my mind is that sport climbing centers around climbing hard numbers, while the traditional standard has been to underrate your climbs leaving them a little sandbagged. This allows the route to speak for itself instead of the climber or the grade. Think about it, it's not often you hear about trad climbs being downgraded.
I have refused to call one level or another elite in my response. I don't believe that there is an elite in climbing and that is what makes this sport so great. We are all climbers, we are all trying our best. Your ability level does not make you in our sport. In the end, even the best of us are still trying to make ends meet at the end of the day.
I had lunch with Alexander Huber the other day and he was the example that really made me feel this way. He is the best of the best, but even he has to snag a free meal to make the trips last.
|
|
|
|
|
clipngo
Jun 2, 2002, 6:11 PM
Post #20 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 66
|
I think the one thing that we are all aware of but no one has mentioned in these posts (or at least not that I noticed) is that some climbers are obviously better then others. But the most important thing isn't the number you climb, not even how hard you try (although that is important.) The most important thing is taking care of all the areas we want to climb in. To make sure they will be around when we ARE able to climb 5.14/15 (or our kids can climb 5.16.) I think that along with the fun, challenge and adventure of climbing is where the true elites will be found. I could be way off base here, but I don't think so. What do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
stevematthys
Jun 6, 2002, 12:57 AM
Post #21 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 1248
|
yea i just did my 1st 5.12 the other day.
|
|
|
|
|
hollyclimber
Jun 6, 2002, 1:05 AM
Post #22 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 124
|
At first I was going to agree with the 5.12 sport is not elite but trad is...but then, for girls like me with the correct size of hand, it is not (in my opinion) elite to climb 5.12 at Indian Creek.
I will stick to 5.14 being elite, and lots of other stuff including some stuff easier than 5.12 being pretty darn impressive.
Holly
|
|
|
|
|
dimeedge
Jun 6, 2002, 1:30 AM
Post #23 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 50
|
"The community that we have is not based on specific ability. I have just as much respct for a guy (or gal) who spends 3 months fighting with a 10c as I would have for someone who easily sends a 5.12. The respect and the "elitist attitude" come more from dedication than from ability "
I will have to agree here... I love seeing someone push themselves, and it dosent matter if it is on a 5.6 their first day climbing, or on a 5.12 that they have been working for a while. Its great because I have been there... pushing myself and I can totally relate. And pushing yourself is what its about.
|
|
|
|
|
justgoupfromthere
Jun 10, 2002, 4:04 PM
Post #24 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2002
Posts: 50
|
I've heard the statement that because the sport has become larger and more popular, more people are climbing 5.12 and above than before. However, you have to take into consideration that, there are more beginners out there that are climbing lower grades 5.5-5.8. So the percentage of who can climb above/below 5.12 is probably still the same as it was. I do consider 5.12 to be elite, meaning better than most. We all have different definitions of what elite is and I think to arrive at common ground we would have to use the same definition.
I hope that made sense.
Anxious to Ascend
|
|
|
|
|
gerbersl
Jun 10, 2002, 5:47 PM
Post #25 of 61
(7519 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 16, 2002
Posts: 13
|
Here's another opinion/perspective.
A feeling of eliteness is a highly relative concept. (Similar to feeling wealthy.) If you can climb 5.12 and no one else you know can climb anywhere close, then you will be elite within you're known world. Taking a broader perspective I would say from a sport climbing perspective that:
If you are a solidly climbing 5.12s you are probably one of the best local climbers.
If you are solidly climbing 5.13s you are probably one of the best regional climbers.
If you are solidly climbing 5.14s you are probably one of the best national climbers.
If you are into competition climbing then it's obviously useful to know where you stand in relation to other climbers. But if you just go to a few comps you will figure that out very quickly!
If you aren't into comp climbing, then don't worry about how you compare to other climbers. Just climb the routes that make you happy, in the style that makes you happy, with the partners who make you happy!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
