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kevindvten
May 27, 2002, 9:59 PM
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Someone mentioned (in the post about 5.15) that 5.12 climbing is considered elite. That was an opinion taken from a book that I believe is a few years old.
That said, do you consider 5.12 climbing to be elite? These days so many people are climbing high grades that I'm skeptical 5.12 can still be seen as some kind of upper echelon.
Just curious what others feel.
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spremegoat
May 27, 2002, 10:09 PM
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obviously, as the sport grows and more people climb, more people will be able to climb at a certain level. I wonder if more climbers today, by percentage, can climb 5.12? This may be beside the point. It really depends on if your definition of "elite" means better than most people or if it means in the top 100 or so climbers worldwide. I can't climb 5.12 yet, so i think of it as pretty impressive.
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climbchick
May 27, 2002, 10:30 PM
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I think of "elite" to mean something that only a very few people can do. Seems like a lot of people can climb sport 12s and 13s (me not being one of them). So I personally would consider 5.14 and above to be elite.
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woodse
May 27, 2002, 10:46 PM
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I think that the elite climbers are 5.14 climbers and above. The book "How to Climb 5.12" simply mentions that 5.12 is a level that, for most, is very difficult to reach. The book indicates that most people plateau around 5.11 and because of poor training are never able to elevate to the higher grades.
woodsE
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dsafanda
May 27, 2002, 11:02 PM
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For what it's worth, I can climb 5.12 sport routes and I consider myself an old duffer. However, if you're talking about 5.12 trad routes, that's a different story. It may not be elite but if you're sending 5.12 cracks on gear you sure are smoking good in my book! I can only dream.
Maybe "elite" is simply that level that you imagine you'll never reach in this lifetime. Don't waste time worrying about grades.
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-05-27 16:25 ]
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crackaddict
May 28, 2002, 12:02 AM
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Lots of people are climbing 5.12 these days so I don't consider it elite. But its a step in the right direction.
I think that 13's and 14 's are more elite.
Because you don't see as many people on these.
But you have to ask yourself what your definition of elite is.
I like Davids last qoute in the above post!
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-05-27 17:05 ]
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wallhammer
May 28, 2002, 5:17 AM
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in the dream world a 5.12 is supposed to be a 5.12 in the real world i have never come close to a 5.12 trad, in fact a few 5.12's i would just love to see someone climb. (we have a few classic 5.12's in my area of which i have never seen anyone do without being toproped and hangdogging). on the other hand i have come closer (repeat closer) to a 5.12 on a couple of sport routes (top roped) which to me means you are comparing apples to oranges. but in response to your post' yes climbing 5.12 (trad) is elite (to me) any of you 5.12 sport climbers that would like to show me your stuff in tahquitz (a trad mecca) or in san diego, drop me a line and i will be your belay bitch and take you out for dinner and beer.
[ This Message was edited by: wallhammer on 2002-05-27 22:20 ]
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iclimbtoo
May 28, 2002, 5:48 AM
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Well, I definitely think that it depends on what type of climbing you're talking about. I've topped out on 12a, top roping. I am extremely confident that I could easily sport it. However, tradding a 5.12? That's amazing! I've only seen a handful of people doing it out in Eldo. I would say for sport, no, 5.12 is not elite. Not even 13. 5.14 would be elite for sport. But for TRAD? Yes, 5.12 is definitely amazing. I'm impressed if someone is tradding 5.11 (which I'm still working on). 5.12 though is elite for Trad.
Stugs
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jt512
May 28, 2002, 5:19 PM
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No, 5.12 is not elite. In fact, the Las Vegas Limestone guidebooks, calls 5.12a the top of the "intermediate" range. With dedication, most climbers can learn to climb 5.12.
-Jay
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climberstephen
May 28, 2002, 5:23 PM
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I find that there is a definate hump between climbing 5.11s and 5.12s. If you are strong and have some technique, you can climb 5.11s, but to push into the 5.12 range, you must really dedicate yourself and climb more than just once a week. But that's just what I think.
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spank_spank
May 28, 2002, 5:33 PM
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Pulling 5.14 or V10 on a consistent basis is elite.
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overlord
May 28, 2002, 8:54 PM
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i agree with spank
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benfieldj
May 28, 2002, 9:13 PM
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If someone is leading 5.12 trad on site regularly they are definitely in an elite group.
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spremegoat
May 28, 2002, 9:23 PM
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you also have to take into consideration whether they are on sighting the climb or red pointing it. There is a big difference between a guy who regularly onsights 5.12s and someone who has managed to redpoint one or two after several weeks of practice/attempts
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lemon_boy
May 28, 2002, 9:39 PM
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very good question with some good responses. if you are working and redpointing 5.12 routes at your home crag, then it is definitely not elite. it is very good! but not elite.
however, if you can step up to the plate at any crag around and onsight 5.12 climbing in any style (and i mean ANY style ie. indian creek rattly finger cracks, vedawoo horrendous offwidth, steep glass slab, overhanging sporto, weird eldo dihedrals, technical face, etc) then you are DEFINITELY climbing at an elite level.
if not, you can always have fun anyway!
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verticallaw
May 28, 2002, 10:16 PM
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I don't know if I would considder climbing 5.12 sport "elite" but it does deserve some respect. When I ticked my first 12 I felt proud as hell and I will always remember that day fondly. But has it changed my status in the climbing community??? NO! nor should it. The community that we have is not based on specific ability. I have just as much respct for a guy (or gal) who spends 3 months fighting with a 10c as I would have for someone who easily sends a 5.12. The respect and the "elitist attitude" come more from dedication than from ability
thats just my $0.02
Mike
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harry
Jun 2, 2002, 3:31 PM
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i climb in england and wales, so i dont have a clue how difficult a 5.12 actually is
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crackaddict
Jun 2, 2002, 3:52 PM
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Hey Harry here is a conversion chart for you.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/rankingguide.php
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natec
Jun 2, 2002, 5:43 PM
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I'll agree that if you can onsight 5.12 at a trad level, then you are the man or woman.
That's incredibly difficult. Most trad climbers will struggle and battle to make it out of the 5.10's. And even more (like myself) will be on a daily battle to break into the 5.10's.
Climbing 5.12 at the sport level is not as impressive as climbing 5.12 at the trad level. The major reason in my mind is that sport climbing centers around climbing hard numbers, while the traditional standard has been to underrate your climbs leaving them a little sandbagged. This allows the route to speak for itself instead of the climber or the grade. Think about it, it's not often you hear about trad climbs being downgraded.
I have refused to call one level or another elite in my response. I don't believe that there is an elite in climbing and that is what makes this sport so great. We are all climbers, we are all trying our best. Your ability level does not make you in our sport. In the end, even the best of us are still trying to make ends meet at the end of the day.
I had lunch with Alexander Huber the other day and he was the example that really made me feel this way. He is the best of the best, but even he has to snag a free meal to make the trips last.
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clipngo
Jun 2, 2002, 6:11 PM
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I think the one thing that we are all aware of but no one has mentioned in these posts (or at least not that I noticed) is that some climbers are obviously better then others. But the most important thing isn't the number you climb, not even how hard you try (although that is important.) The most important thing is taking care of all the areas we want to climb in. To make sure they will be around when we ARE able to climb 5.14/15 (or our kids can climb 5.16.) I think that along with the fun, challenge and adventure of climbing is where the true elites will be found. I could be way off base here, but I don't think so. What do you think?
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stevematthys
Jun 6, 2002, 12:57 AM
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yea i just did my 1st 5.12 the other day.
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hollyclimber
Jun 6, 2002, 1:05 AM
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At first I was going to agree with the 5.12 sport is not elite but trad is...but then, for girls like me with the correct size of hand, it is not (in my opinion) elite to climb 5.12 at Indian Creek.
I will stick to 5.14 being elite, and lots of other stuff including some stuff easier than 5.12 being pretty darn impressive.
Holly
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dimeedge
Jun 6, 2002, 1:30 AM
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"The community that we have is not based on specific ability. I have just as much respct for a guy (or gal) who spends 3 months fighting with a 10c as I would have for someone who easily sends a 5.12. The respect and the "elitist attitude" come more from dedication than from ability "
I will have to agree here... I love seeing someone push themselves, and it dosent matter if it is on a 5.6 their first day climbing, or on a 5.12 that they have been working for a while. Its great because I have been there... pushing myself and I can totally relate. And pushing yourself is what its about.
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justgoupfromthere
Jun 10, 2002, 4:04 PM
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I've heard the statement that because the sport has become larger and more popular, more people are climbing 5.12 and above than before. However, you have to take into consideration that, there are more beginners out there that are climbing lower grades 5.5-5.8. So the percentage of who can climb above/below 5.12 is probably still the same as it was. I do consider 5.12 to be elite, meaning better than most. We all have different definitions of what elite is and I think to arrive at common ground we would have to use the same definition.
I hope that made sense.
Anxious to Ascend
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gerbersl
Jun 10, 2002, 5:47 PM
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Here's another opinion/perspective.
A feeling of eliteness is a highly relative concept. (Similar to feeling wealthy.) If you can climb 5.12 and no one else you know can climb anywhere close, then you will be elite within you're known world. Taking a broader perspective I would say from a sport climbing perspective that:
If you are a solidly climbing 5.12s you are probably one of the best local climbers.
If you are solidly climbing 5.13s you are probably one of the best regional climbers.
If you are solidly climbing 5.14s you are probably one of the best national climbers.
If you are into competition climbing then it's obviously useful to know where you stand in relation to other climbers. But if you just go to a few comps you will figure that out very quickly!
If you aren't into comp climbing, then don't worry about how you compare to other climbers. Just climb the routes that make you happy, in the style that makes you happy, with the partners who make you happy!
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rmiller
Jun 10, 2002, 6:20 PM
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This is only my personal opinion and am sure some will disagree. I do not believe that 5.12 is elite, both for trad and sport. There are a ton of people around this country that can climb at the 5.12 grade with relative ease. Hell in Boulder, everyone and their mother can climb 5.13. In Indian Creek, it seems everyone climbs 5.12 crack. Yes, this is above the average, but elite? I don't think so. I think to be elite, in the current era, means you whould be sending 5.14 sport routes and 5.13 cracks, or harder. Names such as Steve Petro, Ron Kauk, Lynn Hill, the Huber brothers, Legrand, etc. pop into my mind as elite climbers. There are a lot of rad climbers out there sending sick stuff, but that does not mean they are elite. I guess you could break "eliteness" down to regions and there 5.12 may be considered elite. But for the world climbing community, no way is 5.12 elite in any mode of climbing!
[ This Message was edited by: rmiller on 2002-06-10 13:56 ]
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treyr
Jun 10, 2002, 9:32 PM
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Well it is pretty good. Better than me and is on the upper end of the scale
Trob
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mreardon
Jun 17, 2002, 11:28 PM
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Elite comes down to what you consider climbing. Personally I don't think a person who did one, or a handful of sport routes at the local crag is "elite". Repeating on the same routes over and over just means they are good on those routes. What are they like elsewhere? Doing 5.12 sport consistently at new areas is something that I would say ranks up there and possibly "elite. But this is sport climbing. What about trad? It sounds like everyone is in agreement that 5.12 trad is "elite". Particularly if they are climbing it regularly in new areas. So to be elite, it would make sense that the person would have to excel in the 5.12s on both sport and trad to even be in the running.
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bolder
Jun 28, 2002, 7:00 PM
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5.12 is not elite. In boulder 5.12 is average. Don't get me wrong, 5.12 is damn hard but not elite.
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rocknpowda
Jun 28, 2002, 7:22 PM
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I don't know if it is elite, but 5.12 seems to present a barrier for alot of people, myself included. There have been alot of times that I show up at a new area and just wish I was a solid 5.12 climber because it would open up so many more routes I could do at the area. For now i'll continue to try and break the barrier. Sometimes it's possible to simply muscle up some 5.11s but most 5.12s require strength AND technique, usually gained from hard work and experience.
Also, Elite is kind of a subjective term. to the first time climber, the person who leads up that 5.9 probably seems pretty elite.
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stevematthys
Jun 29, 2002, 2:27 AM
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i just climbed my 1st 5.12 in the gym, and i am not elite, not by a long shot
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malachi
Jun 30, 2002, 3:06 AM
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i think you need to clearly define "elite" in this case.
in my mind, "elite" means that you are in the top percentage point amongst climbers in the world (not in your country, not regionally and certainly not locally).
given this...
IMHO "elite" sport climbers on-sight hard 5.13 at the very least and redpoint solid 5.14.
IMHO "elite" trad climbers on-sight hard 5.12 gear routes at the very least and redpoint solid 5.13 gear routes.
IMHO "elite" boulderers on-sight V10 and send V12/13 with some work.
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mpbro
Jun 30, 2002, 3:58 AM
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5.12...is that halfway between 5.1 and 5.2?
Some of the "class 4" stuff in the Yosemite backcountry scares the bejesus out of me!
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climbsomething
Jun 30, 2002, 4:35 AM
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.12 elite? No. Is it good, like, really really good? yes. but maybe when I crack the .12 barrier I'll change my tune
heck, I am elite... cause there's only one of me! (how's that for a daily affirmation?)
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jono13
Jun 30, 2002, 5:34 AM
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hmmmm, 5.12? 5.12 is really good, but i dont think i would call it elite. Elite i would think of as 13 climbers, 12 i think would be advanced or something like that. and i dont think u can compare a 12 in the gym to a 12 outside. ive pulled v4's in the gym, but can only pull an v3 outside, its a completly different game when you get to the real thing.
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mrsmylie
Sep 25, 2002, 6:35 AM
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talking sport climbing here. i consider .12 climbers to be a slight bit above average. the better majority of the climbers that i know can climb .12s. elite would better describe .13+ and .14 climbers.
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bsperes
Sep 25, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Of all the posting I would agree with Malachi the most. I can climb low .12s, sometimes, if the wind and barometric pressure and moons all align properly. But even hard .12s are by no means elite. They are the real gateway past above average (.11s) into good. Once you hit .14a/v12 you are talking elite.
I have no trad experience but had lots of respect for those that do.
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mreardon
Sep 25, 2002, 7:07 PM
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I was thinking about this one again, and the problem is the word "elite" itself. I remember 10 years ago that climbing a 5.13 sport was considered the best in the game and every magazine would spray if you wrote to them about having done that. Today it seems like you have to do 20 5.14s to even get a mention in "hot flashes". But magazines don't define elite, just sales. If they did, then apparently only Chris Sharma and Lynn Hill are the elite ones since they've get the most mentions. From my experiences just in the last three years with an average of four months per year on the road, there really are only a limited few who actually climb 5.12 on a regular basis. And most of those are only able to climb at that level for a limited time, and only at the local crag on a specific type of climbing (bouldering, sport, or trad specific).
Personally I would say that those that climb 5.12 across the board (sport, trad, and bouldering) on a consistent basis no matter where they are (not just the home crag), would definitely be in the elite group. People like Will Gadd, Randy Leavitt, Kevin Thaw, Abby Watkins, and folks like that definitely earn the title.
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radistrad
Sep 25, 2002, 7:19 PM
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NO
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madriver
Sep 25, 2002, 8:42 PM
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ELITE...!!!!
At least 5.9+....!!! My My..elite..me thinks THATS the PROBLEM!!! There are TOO many ELITES in the world I don't want to be ELITE or is that ALERT...????
Climb It If You Can...!!!!
MAd River...a lert..!!! Dooooh...
[ This Message was edited by: madriver on 2002-09-25 13:44 ]
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jbone
Sep 25, 2002, 9:18 PM
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It's funny how the Number 5.12 is used to base so many of your opinions from.
I consider Elite to be a climber who does not fall when you are expecting them too. They perform at times at Amazing levels and have the Best day of the whole lot. They may even do something "special" once or twice in their climbing lives.
They instill a aurou of confidence on all climbers around them.
That's my way?
JBone
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ramylson
Sep 25, 2002, 9:43 PM
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Seriously.. this is the third time I've typed this, and ever time I've finished, something happens where it doesn't post.
Anyway, this entire topic really revolves around one thing: the definitely of elite. What is it? And, how is that going to relate to climbing? This is going to vary from person to person, but for me it comes down to something or someone elite is above the norm. So, to be an elite climber, you need to be performing above the normal level. Pretty basic, I know.. but this definition is going to change the question, is a 5.12 climber elite, just by the discipline we're talking about.
5.12 sport.. elite? No.. but the doorway to it. When someone gets the the 5.12 grade, they're at the doorway to becoming an elite climber. At this point, they're basically above average. To climb 5.12 you can't just muscle through things. Sure, you need strength, but you also need technique. From this point on, when climbing higher in the grades, it takes more commitment as well as more of a mental knowledge of both techniques used and strength to get the climb finished. At the 5.12 point you need to commit to climbing and improving your climbing in order to continue climbing harder. Why isn't 5.12 the elite point in the sport discipline? In sport climbing your more clipping and going, with more emphasis on the body movements to get there. You don't need to worry about falling on a bolt and it's popping/breaking. In most cases anyway. As a result, more and more people are climbing at the 5.12 level and above in sport climbing. Personally though, I think that a person climbing 5.13 in sport is at an elite level. Sure, there are more people climbing there, and it doesn't get as much exposure in the magazines, but it's become old hat. It would get stale to hear about the amount of 5.13's climbed today, but you do still hear it. Instead, magazines have shifted thier focus to the progession of our sport which is the high tier of climbing.. 5.14/5.15. What would you rather see?
5.12 trad? Burly. Definitely elite.. especially when you consider the amout that goes into climbing at that level within that discipline. Not only are you climbing something difficult where strength and technique will be key, but you have to place gear effectively before you can continue (timely mind you). Not to mention, the mental aspects of climbing at this grade, or any grade for trad. To be able to climb above a piece knowing that "it'll hold" in a fall, or being able to run it out without pertection. The mental aspects in trad, regardless of grade, are at least 60% of the climbing (in my opinion).
Remember though, there are honestly a million and one variations on this. We would have to look at type of rock (granite, sandstone, etc), type of climb (slab, overhanging, etc).. that will play a factor as well. To be an elite climber, you need to be able to climb that level regardless of area, style, etc. Sure, I can climb mid/upper 5.10 trad, lower/mid 5.12 sport but in no way does that make me an elite climber. I think I've just opened the door to anther world.
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chonk
Sep 25, 2002, 9:53 PM
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i know this whole conversation is going around in circles but it is important for everyone to bring in their perspective. when i think of elite it is in 2 areas. climbers and regular joes. 5.12 may not be considered elite, which has been the overall consensus so far for a climber, but to me, elite is the whole public. take some guy off the street and ask him to climb a 5.12 he will think it is totally amazing.
even though 'elite' has been used so far in terms of achived level in climbing, and not so much as energy spent into the sport. to ME and elite person is someone who is the sport. maybe they cna only climb a 5.10 (like myself) but i am the one freaking picking up peoples garbage at sites, volunteering for programs and making sure the sport lives on. this has to be a team effort, and that is what draws me to climbing. you get to test yourself within a team environment. this can be your climbing partner, or just some peopel you meet at the local crags helping each other with problems.
i am off of my soapbox now )
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paintinhaler
Sep 25, 2002, 10:37 PM
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A 5.12 in a gym! That dosent mean sh&t.
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rockfax
Sep 25, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Registered: Oct 26, 2001
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5.12 is elite in the USA.
Everywhere else you have to climb 5.14 to be elite.
Similarly, you are considered sponsored in the USA if you get a few power bars , a rope, and a pair of rock shoes.
Whereas everywhere else you have to get gear and $$$$$ to be considered a sponsored climber.
Mick R
www.rockfax.com
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cory
Sep 25, 2002, 11:21 PM
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Hey elcapadic (J.O.)-are you aware of the current definition of elite? It does not mean hardcore or stupid. Last time I checked, it also does not refer to what is required of a climber to climb at an elite level(i.e., strong fingers.) It simply refers, in this case, to who is climbing at a level significantly above that of the average climber, so your opinion of whether or not a climber is doing dangerous routes is irrelevant.
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climblouisiana
Sep 25, 2002, 11:52 PM
Post #47 of 61
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No, 5.12 is not elite. It is above average though.
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jmlangford
Sep 26, 2002, 12:38 AM
Post #48 of 61
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I reached 5.14 a few years back and didn't think much of it.
5.14 as in 5'14" or 6'2".
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no_limit
Sep 26, 2002, 12:44 AM
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Compared to me 5.12 is super elite. Oh well, hopefully i'll be there someday.
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jt512
Sep 26, 2002, 1:03 AM
Post #50 of 61
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This whole debate could be ended by a visit to a dictionary. The "elite" in a sport are those who are among the best. That's the definition. In sport climbing, therefore, 5.12 is not elite, since the best sport climbers climb 5.14+.
-Jay
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boulderpaul
Sep 26, 2002, 1:13 AM
Post #51 of 61
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you are elite when u dont care about the grades.
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climbingpride
Sep 26, 2002, 11:46 PM
Post #52 of 61
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Registered: Oct 6, 2001
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Simply yes. Expecialy if they lead it. I can do some 5.10's and 11's so i'm hoping its not that far off for me. Though i do agree climbers are getting better but they are upping the rateings id 5.15's.
Just my thoughts
Pride
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topher
Sep 26, 2002, 11:51 PM
Post #53 of 61
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yes 5.12 is elit, if you are a fully compotent 5.12 climber, if you have done a few 5 12 then not really, but if you can walk up to any 5.12 be it crack face slab, what ever and be like lets climb and do it, then in my books you are in like the top .5% of the climbing comunity.
as fare as some backcountry 4 class stuff, i ma more scared doing that then doing hard climbs casue usally on class 4 if you where to slip its all over!!
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micronut
Sep 27, 2002, 4:20 PM
Post #54 of 61
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5.12 cracks on sight is pretty damm elite in my book. On the other hand 5.12a redpoints are pretty common. I've even red-pointed 5.12 sport with some work. It's all in the precise definiton of what you're doing. That's why we have terms like "onsight", "redpoint", "trad." "sport" etc... I'd like to see more people being totally honest about their efforts by using the terms.
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dawgcatching
Sep 29, 2002, 8:20 AM
Post #55 of 61
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Registered: Aug 15, 2002
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Is "elite" world class? I used to run under 14:30 for 5K, which would win money at most races, but is what, 2 minutes off the 5K world record? I was considered elite in the competitions I was entered in, usually finishing in the top 3 in a 1,500 person race. But, I didn't run at the Olympic Trials. To the average Joe running 23 minutes for 5k, I was elite, but not when compared to world class guys running 13:20. So, I concur with the posts that state that elite depends on your prospective. If everyone at your gym climbs a 12, then it is no big deal. To a beginner, it is a big deal. BTW, I still would venture to say that 98% of climbers cannot climb a 12. Most everyone I see more of a weekend warrior type, I see very few climbers on 12's around here, even fewer on 13's.
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cory
Oct 2, 2002, 2:44 AM
Post #56 of 61
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I'm not arguing that 5.14 on gear isn't cooler or more elite than doing it on bolts, but that's not what you said. You stated that 5.14 is not elite, so now you have changed your position to something reasonable and correct. Also, I sent that 5.6 and am now working on a 5.7- sick, sick crux.
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rockprodigy
Oct 2, 2002, 3:35 PM
Post #57 of 61
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Registered: Sep 10, 2002
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14:30!!?? Freekin' A man, that's AWESOME. I was stoked to break 16 minutes in college, which I thought was pretty good, but it's like you said, you would still get lapped by the world record holder (I would be humiliated)...it's all relative. I think 14:30 is more elite than climbing 5.14, these days, if you consider that way more people run, than climb.
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boulderpaul
Oct 21, 2002, 6:36 PM
Post #58 of 61
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Registered: Sep 16, 2002
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elite... thats a pretty strong word. 5.12/v4, i do not really consider this elite. though it is pretty good, i think i would say that 5.14/v11 is elite.
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bretterick
Oct 21, 2002, 7:18 PM
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Registered: Oct 11, 2002
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Cory, you rock! you took that one very well!
I think that elite doesnt matter, climbing is a sport where its just you and the rock, its not a competetion (unless it is ) and there will always be someone better than you and someone worse than you. It doesnt matter, if you normally climb 5.10s and send a 5.12 one day, you should be stoked and feel elite about your accomplishment, but dont think that the mags and manufacturers are going to line up and give you sponsorships.
There are only a handfull of climbers in this world that can be called the worlds greatest and by definition they are elite, but dont worry about them or anyone else for that matter just climb and have fun doing it.
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sparky
Oct 31, 2002, 12:13 AM
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Registered: May 31, 2002
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no
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therealdeal
Oct 31, 2002, 1:44 AM
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Registered: Oct 29, 2002
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No, but I certainly think its above average, trad or sport. Once you get to that grade I don't think the discipline matters; you can hangdog trad routes too.
Onsighting 12 consistently is much harder, and I think beginning to stand out, but elite?
13c and beyond.
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