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rmiller
Jun 10, 2002, 6:20 PM
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This is only my personal opinion and am sure some will disagree. I do not believe that 5.12 is elite, both for trad and sport. There are a ton of people around this country that can climb at the 5.12 grade with relative ease. Hell in Boulder, everyone and their mother can climb 5.13. In Indian Creek, it seems everyone climbs 5.12 crack. Yes, this is above the average, but elite? I don't think so. I think to be elite, in the current era, means you whould be sending 5.14 sport routes and 5.13 cracks, or harder. Names such as Steve Petro, Ron Kauk, Lynn Hill, the Huber brothers, Legrand, etc. pop into my mind as elite climbers. There are a lot of rad climbers out there sending sick stuff, but that does not mean they are elite. I guess you could break "eliteness" down to regions and there 5.12 may be considered elite. But for the world climbing community, no way is 5.12 elite in any mode of climbing!
[ This Message was edited by: rmiller on 2002-06-10 13:56 ]
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treyr
Jun 10, 2002, 9:32 PM
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Well it is pretty good. Better than me and is on the upper end of the scale
Trob
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mreardon
Jun 17, 2002, 11:28 PM
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Elite comes down to what you consider climbing. Personally I don't think a person who did one, or a handful of sport routes at the local crag is "elite". Repeating on the same routes over and over just means they are good on those routes. What are they like elsewhere? Doing 5.12 sport consistently at new areas is something that I would say ranks up there and possibly "elite. But this is sport climbing. What about trad? It sounds like everyone is in agreement that 5.12 trad is "elite". Particularly if they are climbing it regularly in new areas. So to be elite, it would make sense that the person would have to excel in the 5.12s on both sport and trad to even be in the running.
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bolder
Jun 28, 2002, 7:00 PM
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5.12 is not elite. In boulder 5.12 is average. Don't get me wrong, 5.12 is damn hard but not elite.
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rocknpowda
Jun 28, 2002, 7:22 PM
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I don't know if it is elite, but 5.12 seems to present a barrier for alot of people, myself included. There have been alot of times that I show up at a new area and just wish I was a solid 5.12 climber because it would open up so many more routes I could do at the area. For now i'll continue to try and break the barrier. Sometimes it's possible to simply muscle up some 5.11s but most 5.12s require strength AND technique, usually gained from hard work and experience.
Also, Elite is kind of a subjective term. to the first time climber, the person who leads up that 5.9 probably seems pretty elite.
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stevematthys
Jun 29, 2002, 2:27 AM
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i just climbed my 1st 5.12 in the gym, and i am not elite, not by a long shot
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malachi
Jun 30, 2002, 3:06 AM
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i think you need to clearly define "elite" in this case.
in my mind, "elite" means that you are in the top percentage point amongst climbers in the world (not in your country, not regionally and certainly not locally).
given this...
IMHO "elite" sport climbers on-sight hard 5.13 at the very least and redpoint solid 5.14.
IMHO "elite" trad climbers on-sight hard 5.12 gear routes at the very least and redpoint solid 5.13 gear routes.
IMHO "elite" boulderers on-sight V10 and send V12/13 with some work.
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mpbro
Jun 30, 2002, 3:58 AM
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5.12...is that halfway between 5.1 and 5.2?
Some of the "class 4" stuff in the Yosemite backcountry scares the bejesus out of me!
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climbsomething
Jun 30, 2002, 4:35 AM
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.12 elite? No. Is it good, like, really really good? yes. but maybe when I crack the .12 barrier I'll change my tune
heck, I am elite... cause there's only one of me! (how's that for a daily affirmation?)
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jono13
Jun 30, 2002, 5:34 AM
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hmmmm, 5.12? 5.12 is really good, but i dont think i would call it elite. Elite i would think of as 13 climbers, 12 i think would be advanced or something like that. and i dont think u can compare a 12 in the gym to a 12 outside. ive pulled v4's in the gym, but can only pull an v3 outside, its a completly different game when you get to the real thing.
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mrsmylie
Sep 25, 2002, 6:35 AM
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talking sport climbing here. i consider .12 climbers to be a slight bit above average. the better majority of the climbers that i know can climb .12s. elite would better describe .13+ and .14 climbers.
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bsperes
Sep 25, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Of all the posting I would agree with Malachi the most. I can climb low .12s, sometimes, if the wind and barometric pressure and moons all align properly. But even hard .12s are by no means elite. They are the real gateway past above average (.11s) into good. Once you hit .14a/v12 you are talking elite.
I have no trad experience but had lots of respect for those that do.
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mreardon
Sep 25, 2002, 7:07 PM
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I was thinking about this one again, and the problem is the word "elite" itself. I remember 10 years ago that climbing a 5.13 sport was considered the best in the game and every magazine would spray if you wrote to them about having done that. Today it seems like you have to do 20 5.14s to even get a mention in "hot flashes". But magazines don't define elite, just sales. If they did, then apparently only Chris Sharma and Lynn Hill are the elite ones since they've get the most mentions. From my experiences just in the last three years with an average of four months per year on the road, there really are only a limited few who actually climb 5.12 on a regular basis. And most of those are only able to climb at that level for a limited time, and only at the local crag on a specific type of climbing (bouldering, sport, or trad specific).
Personally I would say that those that climb 5.12 across the board (sport, trad, and bouldering) on a consistent basis no matter where they are (not just the home crag), would definitely be in the elite group. People like Will Gadd, Randy Leavitt, Kevin Thaw, Abby Watkins, and folks like that definitely earn the title.
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radistrad
Sep 25, 2002, 7:19 PM
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NO
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madriver
Sep 25, 2002, 8:42 PM
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ELITE...!!!!
At least 5.9+....!!! My My..elite..me thinks THATS the PROBLEM!!! There are TOO many ELITES in the world I don't want to be ELITE or is that ALERT...????
Climb It If You Can...!!!!
MAd River...a lert..!!! Dooooh...
[ This Message was edited by: madriver on 2002-09-25 13:44 ]
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jbone
Sep 25, 2002, 9:18 PM
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It's funny how the Number 5.12 is used to base so many of your opinions from.
I consider Elite to be a climber who does not fall when you are expecting them too. They perform at times at Amazing levels and have the Best day of the whole lot. They may even do something "special" once or twice in their climbing lives.
They instill a aurou of confidence on all climbers around them.
That's my way?
JBone
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ramylson
Sep 25, 2002, 9:43 PM
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Seriously.. this is the third time I've typed this, and ever time I've finished, something happens where it doesn't post.
Anyway, this entire topic really revolves around one thing: the definitely of elite. What is it? And, how is that going to relate to climbing? This is going to vary from person to person, but for me it comes down to something or someone elite is above the norm. So, to be an elite climber, you need to be performing above the normal level. Pretty basic, I know.. but this definition is going to change the question, is a 5.12 climber elite, just by the discipline we're talking about.
5.12 sport.. elite? No.. but the doorway to it. When someone gets the the 5.12 grade, they're at the doorway to becoming an elite climber. At this point, they're basically above average. To climb 5.12 you can't just muscle through things. Sure, you need strength, but you also need technique. From this point on, when climbing higher in the grades, it takes more commitment as well as more of a mental knowledge of both techniques used and strength to get the climb finished. At the 5.12 point you need to commit to climbing and improving your climbing in order to continue climbing harder. Why isn't 5.12 the elite point in the sport discipline? In sport climbing your more clipping and going, with more emphasis on the body movements to get there. You don't need to worry about falling on a bolt and it's popping/breaking. In most cases anyway. As a result, more and more people are climbing at the 5.12 level and above in sport climbing. Personally though, I think that a person climbing 5.13 in sport is at an elite level. Sure, there are more people climbing there, and it doesn't get as much exposure in the magazines, but it's become old hat. It would get stale to hear about the amount of 5.13's climbed today, but you do still hear it. Instead, magazines have shifted thier focus to the progession of our sport which is the high tier of climbing.. 5.14/5.15. What would you rather see?
5.12 trad? Burly. Definitely elite.. especially when you consider the amout that goes into climbing at that level within that discipline. Not only are you climbing something difficult where strength and technique will be key, but you have to place gear effectively before you can continue (timely mind you). Not to mention, the mental aspects of climbing at this grade, or any grade for trad. To be able to climb above a piece knowing that "it'll hold" in a fall, or being able to run it out without pertection. The mental aspects in trad, regardless of grade, are at least 60% of the climbing (in my opinion).
Remember though, there are honestly a million and one variations on this. We would have to look at type of rock (granite, sandstone, etc), type of climb (slab, overhanging, etc).. that will play a factor as well. To be an elite climber, you need to be able to climb that level regardless of area, style, etc. Sure, I can climb mid/upper 5.10 trad, lower/mid 5.12 sport but in no way does that make me an elite climber. I think I've just opened the door to anther world.
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chonk
Sep 25, 2002, 9:53 PM
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i know this whole conversation is going around in circles but it is important for everyone to bring in their perspective. when i think of elite it is in 2 areas. climbers and regular joes. 5.12 may not be considered elite, which has been the overall consensus so far for a climber, but to me, elite is the whole public. take some guy off the street and ask him to climb a 5.12 he will think it is totally amazing.
even though 'elite' has been used so far in terms of achived level in climbing, and not so much as energy spent into the sport. to ME and elite person is someone who is the sport. maybe they cna only climb a 5.10 (like myself) but i am the one freaking picking up peoples garbage at sites, volunteering for programs and making sure the sport lives on. this has to be a team effort, and that is what draws me to climbing. you get to test yourself within a team environment. this can be your climbing partner, or just some peopel you meet at the local crags helping each other with problems.
i am off of my soapbox now )
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paintinhaler
Sep 25, 2002, 10:37 PM
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A 5.12 in a gym! That dosent mean sh&t.
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rockfax
Sep 25, 2002, 11:15 PM
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5.12 is elite in the USA.
Everywhere else you have to climb 5.14 to be elite.
Similarly, you are considered sponsored in the USA if you get a few power bars , a rope, and a pair of rock shoes.
Whereas everywhere else you have to get gear and $$$$$ to be considered a sponsored climber.
Mick R
www.rockfax.com
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cory
Sep 25, 2002, 11:21 PM
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Hey elcapadic (J.O.)-are you aware of the current definition of elite? It does not mean hardcore or stupid. Last time I checked, it also does not refer to what is required of a climber to climb at an elite level(i.e., strong fingers.) It simply refers, in this case, to who is climbing at a level significantly above that of the average climber, so your opinion of whether or not a climber is doing dangerous routes is irrelevant.
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climblouisiana
Sep 25, 2002, 11:52 PM
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No, 5.12 is not elite. It is above average though.
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jmlangford
Sep 26, 2002, 12:38 AM
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I reached 5.14 a few years back and didn't think much of it.
5.14 as in 5'14" or 6'2".
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no_limit
Sep 26, 2002, 12:44 AM
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Compared to me 5.12 is super elite. Oh well, hopefully i'll be there someday.
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jt512
Sep 26, 2002, 1:03 AM
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This whole debate could be ended by a visit to a dictionary. The "elite" in a sport are those who are among the best. That's the definition. In sport climbing, therefore, 5.12 is not elite, since the best sport climbers climb 5.14+.
-Jay
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