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yannbuse
Nov 13, 2004, 5:24 AM
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I have been thining for a long time on how i should set up my backcountry skiing / randonee set up. Especially when the post came up on what kind of bindings to use with ice climbing boots.
I keep thinking that its a matter of how far you want to take your climbing and how far you want to take your skiing. In which case this causes a dilemma for me. For a while i would climb during the all the months in which i couldnt ski (so most of them) but when skiing kicked in, any climbing was put on hold. Eventually i got heavily into backcountry skiing and randonnee but ultimately for me its all about the descent. As in i wont climb much in the winter unless i can get a sweet a** run back down. But then i tried ice climbing a few times and now invested into all the gear to make it a serious priority of mine.
whats the issue? well i cant help but think that if someone is wanting to ski on short skis with climbing boots on for a descent.... then why dont you climb down. then again ive met some people at the care taker's place at the bottom of tuckerman's who just want to ski the sherbourne trail because of the cost factor in getting good skis/bindings/etc.. Then i think, you like that run? 45min hike you hit the headwall which is like skiing off a cue ball.
So... if you ski and climb or do both, what is your priority and how do you set up you gear accordingly (ie ice climbing boots/skiboots; telemark/alpine; etc..) and also who does it limit you on what routes you would like to do?
thanks for your time
Yann
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climbhoser
Nov 13, 2004, 5:35 AM
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Well, obviously there are a lot of factors. The first one you need to inspect is the boot factor. You have to ask yourself what is more important: a comfy boot for your ice climb or a stiff boot for your turns?
If you decide a comfy boot for your ice climb you will have no control on your descent, and if you decide to go with a stiff boot for turning you will be shit out of luck for a good ice climbing boot. Of course, people from all around the world will tell you that AT boots are the mix and match in between, but you go ahead and lead some multi-pitched WI5s in your area and tell me how they climb. They don't really descend all that great, either.
Then there's tele. Better for descending, worse for ice-climbing. Floppy toes make them unusable for a bail-style crampon and you're stuck with strap-ons.
Personally what I do is prioritize. I ask myself what I'm going to do, what I'm spending most of my time on. If it's a big ice climb in the hills with a relatively short approach I'll just snowshoe in with my mountaineering boots. If it's got a nice descent and a little bit of everything climbing, from steep snow to rock, with ice in between, I might take out my AT boots. If there's no vertical ice I'll opt for my tele set up. If I'm just going for turns I have a heavy pair o' skis with Fritschis and Strolz boots that I can flip a switch and flex that do me awesome for shredding hard lines with drops in the BC.
I understand money is an issue, but if you're going to be doing a lot of things there is no silver bullet. Best bet: expand your quiver. Are you serious about adult-style-playing? Invest in tha quiver.
A friend of mine and I did a big alpine wall mid-winter once. Since the approach was 7 mi. and I didn't have an AT set-up I skinned in with my alpine boots and my fritschis with my Scarpa Invernos in my pack that was in my sled behind me. When all was said and done, three days later, I just put the ski boots back on, clicked in and descended in style...it CAN be done...it just takes some imagination
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braaaaaaaadley
Nov 13, 2004, 6:50 AM
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What you could do (I am no expert) is invest in a tele setup and with the boots file down the duckbill halfway or enough to accept the crampons. Then you could use a hammerhead or the likes for the bindings. That way you can still use some step in crampons with the boots you will be sking with. Just a suggestion, but as I said before I have heard that you can do this. I do tele ski and I am starting Ice this winter... I just dont do them at the same time.
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mbg
Nov 13, 2004, 7:09 AM
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As climbhoser said, you are going to have to compromise in some way.
If I'm going to climb ice harder than a grade 3 I want my regular ice boots no matter what. But if I'm making a long approach to an easier route I'm usually comfortable climbing in my Scarpa tele boots. I can't really say how the compatibility works between other brands but Scarpa boots and BD crampons are designed to be compatible; no modification necessary. In other words, minus the annoying toe-flex inherent in tele boots, this set up has always worked pretty well for me.
Randonee gear is also an obvious workable option but I have never owned that sort of gear. Tele turns are usually such sweet icing on the cake after throwing the tools that I don’t want to change!! :)
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boulderinemt
Nov 15, 2004, 2:11 PM
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what would happen if you got these newer bar style ski boots and bindings? my skate skiis and touring skiis have a bar and slot...i would think maybe, but i don't know...that they would accept some crampons. you would also loose some of the toe flex of the old duck bills. i don't know how teleturners like their gear, if it isn't hard plastic with little flex and a locked down heel, i don't like it :twisted: thats just my two cents.
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akicebum
Nov 15, 2004, 9:07 PM
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Registered: Sep 2, 2003
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So heres the deal. Skiing into climbs is all to common. Some people just use the lightest skiis they can find slap some Silverettas or the Back Country Access Bindings use their mountain boots and go after it that way. Which works, because nobody in their right mind would carry skiis up a technical climb. If you want to ski as well as climb you will need a second rig. I have gone the other route. I have a slightly larger ski, the BD Miras, with Silveretta 500 bindings. They work with my Nepal Extremes and on a Koflach last. They are also a stiff enoug ski for inbounds, and while inbounds I just use a ski boot. These work great for long approaches. I leave them at the base of whatever climb I am on and come back to them afterward. I hope I have helped you a little.
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mainline
Nov 16, 2004, 6:27 AM
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Registered: Aug 30, 2002
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Here is my system:
Short Tours, downhill oriented:
Boots-Scarpa Denali's
Bindings-Fritchi Freeride
Skis-Atomic 10EX
This set up also works well in-bounds. I took this set up to the top of Buck mountain in the Tetons (just under 12000ft) and literally threw my back out.
Long approaches to ice climbing/ski mountaineering:
Boots-Garmont Mega-lite
Bindings-Dynafit Comfort
Skis-Dynafit Rally Race
This set up works great for ice climbing as the boots are so light. It also works great for ski mountaineer racing. It doesn't even come close to the previous set up on a big powder day though.
I used to use tele gear(Scarpa T2's) for climb approaches, but I really dislike ice climbing in tele boots due to the flex point, and 4th class scrambling isn't much fun in them either.
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samovar
Nov 22, 2004, 10:43 AM
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Registered: Jul 12, 2004
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Hello from Siberia!
To combine ski and climbing is very popular in Russia. The ski touring roots are rated as climbing roots from 1,2,3,4,5 up to 6 level of difficulty here. The roots in 1,2 level of difficulty have no elements of climbing but the roots of 5 and 6 are full of Rock and Ice climbing.
http://uralsport.chat.ru/ski1.jpg
What I can tell about ski touring in Russia.
Unlike of mountaineering it is always a grouping work. The group consists of 6-12 people usual (10-12 is the best). It helps to distribute weight of grouping gear and helps to ski through deep soft snow.
http://uralsport.chat.ru/Ski3.jpg
Then unlike of mountaineering the aim of ski touring is to cross a mountain range. The rated elements of the root are: distance, duration, maintain passes, canyon and peaks. The average height of mountain ranger is connected with root classification also. So the root rated as 5 or 6 is 400-600 km long; takes 3-4 weeks out of civilization; must have 10-15 mountain passes rated as 2A, 2B.. up to 4B (there is its own classifications of passes in Russia, the rate 4 is just Big Walling); the root may also included canyons ( with frozen waterfalls usual) and peaks (not difficult, climbing rate from 1A to 2B)
http://uralsport.chat.ru/ski2.jpg
About gear. What may be different in it in USA and Russia.
I think the tent with stove. We have one big tent for the group. The stove used for cooking also. Such tent with stove is 8-10 kg in weight only. The stove works for all night and you can stay in warm place during all night. Your clothes and boots became dry every morning! If the temperature is –40C out there is +20C inside. It is very convenient and you don’t need to have very expensive and super warm “Arctic” clothes and boots. You just don’t be a Superman to travel in Siberia in winter with such equipment.
http://uralsport.chat.ru/Ski4.jpg
About ski equipment. Many like plastic boots for climbing and use ski-touring ski and locks. As for me I prefer standard trekking shoos covered with snow shoos and use custom-made ski lock and custom-made wooden ski. Yes! I use wooden ski! It is strong enough; mush lighter than plastic and not too slippery (it is very important for security when you climb up or skiing down with heavy bag). Then wooden ski don’t need any wax. I not found that plastic boots are convenient for skiing but when you ski off and walk in crampons it gives advantages for sure.
http://uralsport.chat.ru/ski6.jpg
About rucksack: First it must be very big in size because it is not convenient to put things into it if it’s cold. The frozen things are bigger in size. So, I am not recommended very thing and long shape bags for hiking. It gives no stability when skiing, so it’s easy to fall with such bag. The width and short bags are preferred for ski touring. It is good when the bag has low hanged on the belts because it will safe your bottom when fall down. The bag must have a belts to fix a ski on it.
Sorry if there are mistakes in English.
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tomtom
Nov 23, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Registered: Jan 9, 2004
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Great post!
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dingus
Nov 23, 2004, 9:11 PM
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2nd that, though I found myself using a manufactured and imagined Russian accent when I read that long post. Most excellent though.
The only correct compromise is... one of each!
DMT
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valeberga
Nov 23, 2004, 9:46 PM
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Registered: Feb 2, 2003
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I have this idea to climb easy alpine ice in my hard plastic AT-like snowboard boots, with a splitboard on my back, and then board down an alternate route. I think it would be fun. A lot of people say that it would suck to climb with skis on your pack, but maybe it is just something you have to acquire a taste for. I've climbed vertical alpine ice with these particular boots, and I must say they feel pretty secure. I guess I am just not enough of an ice snob to rule out climbing in plastics. Granted I will be sucking ass a little, but as long as I stick to easy ground that won't matter.
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samovar
Nov 24, 2004, 11:27 AM
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Registered: Jul 12, 2004
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In reply to: 2nd that, though I found myself using a manufactured ...
It is maybe right for many countries but not for Russia.
Lets back 20-15 years ego to the time of Cold War. Sure, it will be difficult to understand for many people now the life of people in USSR.
Fact #1: Thousand soviet plants make rockets, aircrafts, submarines and other staff for military. But it’s difficult to get a food and clothes in the shops for people. If the same plants have to do something for people they make very poor products.
Fact #2: Climbing, ski touring, hiking is not only sport in USSR. It is like a religion for millions.
Fact # 3: Many thousand of Russian engineers whom are crazy in climbing work with rockets and dream about vacation and mountains.
Fact #4: Now, how it’s in English “If you can not have the best make the best of what you have.” So, these “many thousand engineers whom are crazy in climbing” have access to hi-tech equipment and materials. Now they just need add knowledge and their experience in sports to build the gear for vacation to have a good trip in the mountains. And they do it.
Fact #5: it was difficult, but possible to get anything in USSR. Another word it was possible to steal many thing from the plants for military use, not rockets of cause. Just one example, I was a schoolboy when my farther starts do a new tent for Ice Fishing (he crazy in ice fishing). He made a titanium frame itself for the tent on his plant and bring it home. Were do you think he got a cloth for the tent???!!! In the shops. No! It was impossible. He got NEW brake parachutes made for MIG 31 (I think FOX HANTER – NATO classification). It was a new secret aircraft at that time. I help him to cut the parachutes to make a tent after. It is great tent now day with stamp TPK MIG 31. ;)
Fact #6: Climbers (and other whom are crazy in something) are very communicative people. And of cause people deal of its experience of making gear. So, the things was improved by these “many thousand engineers whom are crazy in something”. As a result there are many great products in Russia for outdoor.
My work connected with outdoor business now. There are available best-branded western products in Russia today. But I still found many custom-made things created by these “many Russian thousand engineers whom are crazy in something” much more useful and quality than best-branded Russian and Western products.
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bluetrout
Nov 24, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Registered: Dec 2, 2003
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Samovar,
Wow, I am impressed! That was a great post, thankyou!
Sara
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kid
Nov 26, 2004, 1:00 AM
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Registered: Apr 26, 2004
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Samovar - That captures the soul of mountaineering itself. I hope to make it to Russia some day to share the simplicity which can and does exists in parts of america despite the mentality of high cost and the pure wastefulness we all seem to face. I hope to share the thoughts and experiences that the working people of Montana face and the goals we all seem to search for in these hills. With the lack of technology we all search for the best solutions to difficult problems but in the end it is still us in the mountains, facing the same challenges and foes of our for fathers. Climb safe and climb often my friend. ~ Greg F (Kid)
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