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guangzhou
Dec 13, 2004, 6:12 AM
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Paradise Forks, I love that place. The Prow has to be one of my favorite routes. Chalenging nucles for me.
Eman
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curt
Dec 13, 2004, 6:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sport climbing does not indicate any ability to "function at the crags." Oy, since this thread is dead anyway I might as well ask, Curt I have Uber-respect for you, but why is it that you and everyone else bashes sport climbing so much arent you just supposed to do what makes you feel good? I mean they climb rock right? So why is it so different?
Sure, you can absolutely do whatever makes you feel good in climbing--and you should. You do need to understand, though, that sportclimbing is affording you some significant shortcuts to learning to climb the way many of us did.
Curt
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jt512
Dec 13, 2004, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: Sure, you can absolutely do whatever makes you feel good in climbing--and you should. You do need to understand, though, that sportclimbing is affording you some significant shortcuts to learning to climb the way many of us did.
Some would argue that that is the point.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 13, 2004, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sure, you can absolutely do whatever makes you feel good in climbing--and you should. You do need to understand, though, that sportclimbing is affording you some significant shortcuts to learning to climb the way many of us did. Some would argue that that is point.
And some would argue that this is an instance where you get what you pay for.
If what you want out of climbing is to enjoy a tamed down for the masses version of climbing. Then sport climbing is your ticket.
But don't get confused about the fact that sport climbing is only a small part of climbing.
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climb_plastic
Dec 13, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: I've flailed off v3's! and have soared up some high 12's there is no correlation here other than the grade, it's just that a grade. It all depends on the strength, length, sustance of the route in question. . |
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benpullin
Dec 13, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: If what you want out of climbing is to enjoy a tamed down for the masses version of climbing. Then sport climbing is your ticket.
As opposed to what? The bring-em-back-alive adventurers pushing the envelope of sanity queing for the routes at JTree and the Valley?
Gimme a break.
It's all climbing.
Some would rather forgo the fiddling with gear and just pull. Sometimes, it's fun to fiddle with gear. Either way, it's all dumbed down to some degree.
But what's wrong with that?
You can't sandbag the out-of-towners if everyone's doing first ascents all the time...
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 13, 2004, 6:24 PM
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The whole debate about the correlation between bouldering grades and sport climbing grades is pretty old. It has pretty much been settled through the personal experiences of many long time climbers.
All ratings are generalizations geared towards the hypothetical average person. If you are that average person, and one who splits his time between sport and trad, equally. Then using equivalent tools and dedication of time, someone who boulders V7/8, will most likely sport climb 13a/b, and vice versa.
People that still argue about that concept have not done the above.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 13, 2004, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: Some would rather forgo the fiddling with gear and just pull. Sometimes, it's fun to fiddle with gear. Either way, it's all dumbed down to some degree.
It is funny that a sport climber would say that. Sport climbing is all about over reliance on climbing equipment in lieu of climbing ability.
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jt512
Dec 13, 2004, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Some would rather forgo the fiddling with gear and just pull. Sometimes, it's fun to fiddle with gear. Either way, it's all dumbed down to some degree. It is funny that a sport climber would say that. Sport climbing is all about over reliance on climbing equipment in lieu of climbing ability.
It's funny that someone who has worked multi-season sport projects would say that!
-Jay
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benpullin
Dec 13, 2004, 6:34 PM
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No, sport climbing is all about climbing rock that does not protect with anything other than bolts.
Surprising that you don't know that.
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curt
Dec 13, 2004, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Some would rather forgo the fiddling with gear and just pull. Sometimes, it's fun to fiddle with gear. Either way, it's all dumbed down to some degree. It is funny that a sport climber would say that. Sport climbing is all about over reliance on climbing equipment in lieu of climbing ability. It's funny that someone who has worked multi-season sport projects would say that! -Jay
I don't really see any contradiction there. You can be honest and admit what "sport climbing" really is and still have fun doing it.
Curt
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climb_plastic
Dec 13, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Some would rather forgo the fiddling with gear and just pull. Sometimes, it's fun to fiddle with gear. Either way, it's all dumbed down to some degree. It is funny that a sport climber would say that. Sport climbing is all about over reliance on climbing equipment in lieu of climbing ability.
I guess you're one of the guys with such super climbing ability to climb every sport climb out there huh. For me I still find some sport climbs I fall off of, so yeah I'd like to be able to rely on the climbing equipment to make up for my lack of climbing ability.
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guangzhou
Dec 14, 2004, 2:45 AM
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Sport climbing is only part of climbing, that's true. What is interesting is that when rock climbing started to become popular, climbers (mountaineers by today’s definition) would criticize rock climbers for only participating in a small aspect of climbing mountains. Being too specialized. The argument was that those skills could not be use in the high mountains where it mattered. The same argument used here, just slightly refined
Of course, now the great mountaineering routes required a fair amount of technical rock climbing. Because rock climbers became more specialized, the non-specialized climbers were able to see that hard rock climbing standards were attainable, so they too started to push their sport and personal boundaries. Skills learned in specialized and well-traveled areas like Yosemite were transferred to places like Patagonia, Greenland, Baffin Island, and the Himalayas. These skills have pushed the standards and the quality of climbing.
Sport climbing has done the same thing for trad climbing. First sport climbing was heavily criticized, but as more and more recreational climbers started to climb into the harder sport grades, more and more climbers started to realize hard climbing was possible while still maintaining a civilized life and career. Slowly, this realization seeped into the trad climbing community too. By combining both disciplines, individual climbers quickly learn to move and push their individual skills. Climber like the Huber brothers, Sharma, and Caldwell are proof that climbing sport routes will increase your trad ability. Let’s face it, knowing you can climb 5.13 moves makes run out 5.12 climbing easier to commit too.
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colqueerio
Dec 14, 2004, 3:26 AM
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Captain Crunch, on the V-scale, is a stout V7, probably more like a V8--slopey, temperature dependent, and were it on the ground, would be considered a boulder problem, since it's 15 feet of sustained slaps that make up the biz.
I thought I'd heard that the crux of Realization was V11, and I really doubt that there are no moves harder than V3 on To Bolt. That just seems asinine. Out of alll the first wave of 14a's in this country, that's one of the few to hold the grade. I have yet to encounter a 14a anywhere, even enduro ones, that had cruxes any easier than V7. But I dunno either--I haven't been on To Bolt. So I dunno.
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ikefromla
Dec 14, 2004, 3:27 AM
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i have not posted in this fashion on RC.com for a long time now, so here goes:
HEY OLD FARTS, QUIT BICKERING, I WILL OUT SPORTO BOULDER WEENIE YOU ALL... and i even climb trad... BEEEYATCHES.
we done? :lol:
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irockclimbtoo
Dec 14, 2004, 3:33 AM
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ab
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dingus
Dec 14, 2004, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: You do need to understand, though, that sportclimbing is affording you some significant shortcuts to learning to climb the way many of us did. Curt
You say that like its a bad thing... and you're doing it with a computer lol!
DMT
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dingus
Dec 14, 2004, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: You can be honest and admit what "sport climbing" really is and still have fun doing it. Curt
DMT
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socalbolter
Dec 14, 2004, 3:43 AM
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Lots of bickering here... nothing new really.
I probably straddle the fence here, as I can't really relate 100% to either extreme position.
One thing that I can offer though, is a comment on To Bolt. Over several years I've gotten on that route when I've traveled to Smith. Joe is probably correct in his assessment. The hardest moves are probably only V3 or so. What he doesn't say is that every move is V1-V3 for about 80-90 feet of the climbing. Very technical moves on decent crimps that seem quite difficult when you try to put them all together. The rating is derived from this accumulation, not from the hardest move.
I'd also have to agree with Karl, that no comparison scale will ever do either rating scale justice.
Remember that ratings are just suggestions.
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jt512
Dec 14, 2004, 4:22 AM
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In reply to: If what you want out of climbing is to enjoy a tamed down for the masses version of climbing. Then sport climbing is your ticket.
Another strange statement given that sport climbing was invented by the elite for the elite.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 14, 2004, 7:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If what you want out of climbing is to enjoy a tamed down for the masses version of climbing. Then sport climbing is your ticket. Another strange statement given that sport climbing was invented by the elite for the elite. -Jay
The original sport climbs were 5.12's.(15 to 20 years ago)
When and why did it become neccessary to have 5.7 sport climbs? (in spite of the fact that there are plenty of good 5.7's gear climbs)
The instant gratification of being able to lead in your first week of climbing sure did add a lot of customers for the fledgling climbing industry. I am sure that is just a coincidence.
Climbing used to be a proud activity. I can't say that I am as proud to call myself a climber (depending on how you define that word) as I once was.
Joining the mainstream always has unexpected costs and consequences. If I had wanted to be part of the mainstream, I would of focused on baseball or something equally inane. At least it has the potential to pay better.
For example, the word Guide, as recently as ten years ago it meant a totally different thing then it does today.
Sport climbing can be great fun. There's no doubt about it.
But if all you do is boulder or sport climb then you are missing out on the large majority of what climbing has to offer.
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guangzhou
Dec 14, 2004, 7:28 AM
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The same argument could be that if you don't sport climb and don't boulder, you are missing an equally significant part of climbing.
I started climbing in 1985, before it was mainstream. I kept climbing because I love to move on rock. Another words, I love rock climbing. Aid, sport, and trad are all equally fun and seem to blend well into one another.
Because I aid, I know what my gear is capable of. Because I sport climb, I know I can pull hard moves. Pulling well-protected hard moves on sport climbs helps build my confidence on not so well protected routes and run-outs. Bouldering helps me develop the power, strength, and vision I need to figure out sequences on routes.
Climbing has never been my status symbol; especially among non-climbers. Climbing becoming mainstream will do more good than harm in the long run.
Maybe I should quit doing something because to many other people love doing it?
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 14, 2004, 7:40 AM
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I boulder and sport climb more than I trad climb,(for the last ten years anyway) and when I trad, I tend to go alpine.
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fracture
Dec 14, 2004, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: ... I really doubt that there are no moves harder than V3 on To Bolt. That just seems asinine. Out of alll the first wave of 14a's in this country, that's one of the few to hold the grade. I have yet to encounter a 14a anywhere, even enduro ones, that had cruxes any easier than V7. But I dunno either--I haven't been on To Bolt. So I dunno.
According to Dale Goddard and Udo Neumann (in PRC) it's 150ft of "12- sections" (i.e. V4).
Sounds hard!
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chupa
Dec 14, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: *Kal, qualify the term "function at the crags," and quit setting up false dichotomies.* It means fire the warmups in 10 minutes or less each, work and/or crank off a project or 2, and run laps on stuff you have wired 3-4 letters easier than your project level, preferably 2 days in a row - basically the same thing a competent boulderer does, except you're climbing. The boulderers I know, when they actually dare to show up at the crags, get so pumped 4 bolts up one warmup run that they're literally finished for the day. *Curt, since hearing about your great relationship with Paradise Forks,* We heard about that down here, too - not that we really needed to be told...
That's not my version of being able to "function" at the crags. I would say it would include struggling up my first warm up, chillin around with some friends, having a good time going out afterwards and crackin' open a cold one. Yep, that's the way to function right there.
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