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wa_hoo
Jan 1, 2005, 2:01 AM
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Ok, so I've checked old threads, and been reading John Long's How to Rock Climb, and now I'm thinking it seems prudent to back-up a rappel. I also was reading Knots for Cimbers and they recommend the Autoblock system, which I also saw recommended in Rock and Ice.
We are just going to start climbing outside this spring (we've been a couple times TR with friends, but they either didn't rappel or didn't use a backup).
Do most people use a rappel backup? And what type of rappel device do you like?
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sandbag
Jan 1, 2005, 2:04 AM
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rappelling device would be like a fig 8, but usually my Trango pyramid, i always back it up with a kleimheiston the non brake hand so if im unconscious, im going nowhere until SAR or the coroner get me.... :shock:
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vegastradguy
Jan 1, 2005, 2:06 AM
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i generally backup my raps only when i'm rappelling on my doubles or my partners twins or doing a single line rap. i use the autoblock for my backup.
the reason is that on anything thicker than about 9mm, my reverso does such a great job creating friction that i actually have to pull one side of the device to be able to move on rappel. if i dont, i come to almost a dead stop.
an autoblock or prusik or whatever is always a good idea, regardless of your experience level. get in the habit of using one now so you dont find yourself wishing you had or worse.
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wa_hoo
Jan 1, 2005, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: the reason is that on anything thicker than about 9mm, my reverso does such a great job creating friction that i actually have to pull one side of the device to be able to move on rappel. if i dont, i come to almost a dead stop. an autoblock or prusik or whatever is always a good idea, regardless of your experience level. get in the habit of using one now so you dont find yourself wishing you had or worse.
A question for you - what is a reverso?
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vanclimber
Jan 1, 2005, 2:13 AM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/product.php?p=266
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wa_hoo
Jan 1, 2005, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/product.php?p=266
That was really useful - thanks. I get more about what the Reverso is, but the reviewers offer lots of caution for beginners. I've been climbing 2 years, mostly indoors, lead belaying for 1.5 years, and leading for a couple months. I'm great with both an ATC and started using a grigri a couple months ago and am doing well with that too (had a lesson for lead belaying with that and am clear now).
So, how much better is this than an ATC to rappel with? Would you rappel with an ATC? The reviews for the Reverso are impressive, and the price tag not too high at around $25....
And is it common to use a sling to make the autoblock for the rap back-up?
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vegastradguy
Jan 1, 2005, 3:33 AM
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the reverso is mostly a multipitch device and isnt necessary for cragging and the like. an ATC or ATC-XP would work fine for that application.
oh, and i'd rappel on any device you handed me, fig-8, ATC, carabiner brake, reverso, grigri, etc.
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 1:01 AM
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You can use a sling or a small piece of cord. Remember to place the autoblock BELOW the belay device. The principle is that it functions as your brake hand in the event of loss of consciousness or control. If you place it above the device (which I have seen done often) in the event of loss of control the rope could just burn through the sling. Practice setting it up to get it right. I carry a loop of cord the right lengh and a light locking biner on my harness all of the time and use it on longer, free hanging rappels, particularly if I am carrying weight.
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irockclimbtoo
Jan 3, 2005, 1:18 AM
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ab
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dominator
Jan 3, 2005, 1:49 AM
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So, do you plan on getting knocked out? Or do you stand at the top of the rappel, look down, and say, "By gosh, it looks like I won't be getting knocked out today, I'll just leave the back-up in my pack."
P.S. Use a Petzl Shunt for back-up while cragging. Don't use a prusik.
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seagypsy
Jan 3, 2005, 1:51 AM
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I started using a Petlz shunt recently for everytime I rappel. I love it but it may not be for everyone. The drawbacks are that is heavy, expensive ($40+) and takes a few times to get use to it. But after climbing for two weeks at Portrero Chico and doing up to 12 pitches and then descending...I got pretty fast at snapping the shunt on the rope. Now I wouldn;t think of rappeling without it-strokes for folks.
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dutyje
Jan 3, 2005, 2:00 AM
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wa_hoo -
First off, I'm going to make the assumption that you're seeking proper instruction/guidance for your outdoor climbing, and you just want to take a poll on the idea of backing up your rappel.
Now.. I've been climbing outdoors for less than a year. Indoors, I have 3 years of experience, but 2 of those came a long time ago so don't really count.
I've taken several classes (and will take more this spring) to learn all the basics, and I've followed up with a lot of research and reading. In my outdoor classes, a rappel backup was never taught. I find that most climbers on single-pitch well-known climbs (which is where us noobs spend all our time) don't back up their rappel.
I taught myself a klemheist, prusik, and autoblock under very safe conditions (at home suspended from an A-frame ladder :oops: ). I use the klemheist as my backup knot of choice, and I employ it on every single rappel. I don't do it so much because I feel I will NEED the backup, but I do it because I want to know the knot well and trust it when I get to a point where it is necessary. Also, I feel it's just good practice to make it a habitual part of your routine.
I also like to "test" my knot when I approach the end of my rappel, stopping a few feet off the ground (when the landing is safe). That way I can feel the way it holds, practice re-starting after it catches, and be confident that I can trust the knot when I need it.
For this same reason, I always put knots in the ends of my rappel ropes, even when I've done the climb before and know the ropes will reach the ground.
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nedsurf
Jan 3, 2005, 2:06 AM
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prusik loop above the device. As said above, it will stop you should your hand let go. Never heard an instance where a prusik gets "burned through"
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danpayne
Jan 3, 2005, 2:06 AM
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In reply to: I started using a Petlz shunt recently for everytime I rappel. I love it but it may not be for everyone. The drawbacks are that is heavy, expensive ($40+) and takes a few times to get use to it. But after climbing for two weeks at Portrero Chico and doing up to 12 pitches and then descending...I got pretty fast at snapping the shunt on the rope. Now I wouldn;t think of rappeling without it-strokes for folks.
Count me in as a Shunt fan. I've used it on both double, and single rope rappels, and it works great. It's much smoother than an autoblock. Great for backups, or even for taking pictures and the such.
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phatcat
Jan 3, 2005, 2:07 AM
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i have a shunt a kinda consider it a waste of money. it works fine, and wont trash your rope like a t-block (which you could use), but it is heavy and as a single pitch sport climber i barely ever rap anyway.
i would recomend a figure-8 for rapping though instead of an atc, they're less than ten bucks, and act's tend to get toasty on rappel.
check out FOTH, it has many techniques of backing up a rap. one thing i want to try is the prussik-with-a-biner thing.
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slobmonster
Jan 3, 2005, 2:22 AM
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In reply to: i have a shunt a kinda consider it a waste of money. it works fine, and wont trash your rope like a t-block (which you could use).
More and more guides and instructors are including a rappel backup as part of the basic knowledge toolkit. It's really not all that hard to learn, or to utilize. Also, one may choose to forego the formality and rappel without a backup; there are occasions for every choice.
An autoblock clipped to your legloop should work fine, if nothing in your system is too long.
Additionally, a search of these forums should garner many, many opinions on the subject.
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wa_hoo
Jan 3, 2005, 2:30 AM
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I've never seen or heard of the shunt, so I just checked out petzl's site and the gear review section. Looks interesting. I like the extra safety it appears to be capable of once you practice with it (in a low place like a ladder, etc). The reverso did seem more for multi-pitch stuff the more I read and I'm nowhere near those.
I have a son and a hubby I'm fond of and am fine hauling an extra pound or whatever up the route to be more safe.
It may be slightly overkill on one-pitch sport climbs, but I know I tend to not think very mechanically at times and benefit from a little extra protection.
I'm also definitely taking very experienced, cautious climbers outside the first few times. I've only been outside about 6 times (it's hard to get out for a whole day when you work and have a young kid). I also will be practicing lots inside. We're lucky enough that a gym we belong to near us has bolts with chains above a big ledge on a 20' wall which is perfect for practicing!
I was reading Long's book and will look in FOTH for more info - good idea. Thanks for all the great ideas guys.
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: prusik loop above the device. As said above, it will stop you should your hand let go. Never heard an instance where a prusik gets "burned through"
FOTH, p. 203, 7th edition: "Tying a friction knot (either a prussik or an autoblock) BELOW (caps mine) the rappel device ...." Again the priciple is to self-belay. The auto block does what your hand should do. Would you belay with your hand above the belay device? While the burnout scenario may be extreme, the functional issue to to allow not only to protect your self in case of loss of control, but it allows more control in a rappel if you need to stop and work (ie, clean a difficult piece).
I also prefer the auto block to the prusik because it is easier to set up and does not seem to provide as much resistence while rapping.
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phatcat
Jan 3, 2005, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: i have a shunt a kinda consider it a waste of money. it works fine, and wont trash your rope like a t-block (which you could use). Sorry, but no. You cannot use a tiblock as a rappel backup.
hmm...i haven't tried it, i guess the teeth would catch, and not let your rope feed smooth, probably trashing your rope, like i said.
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briarpatch
Jan 3, 2005, 4:13 AM
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Johnnord is right-on. The autoblock below the device grabs enough to keep the brake, but is still easy to release when you're ready to move again.
If you use a friction hitch of almost any kind ABOVE the device and you fully weight said hitch, you may find yourself in a tight spot. In order to release the hitch it must be unweighted. That's fine if you're rapping a slab, but if it's a free-hanging rap you'll have to do a one-arm pull-up. Sure, you could rig another prusik to stand in, but why not just save yourself the trouble and do it better the first time.
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danpayne
Jan 3, 2005, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: i have a shunt a kinda consider it a waste of money. it works fine, and wont trash your rope like a t-block (which you could use), but it is heavy and as a single pitch sport climber i barely ever rap anyway. |
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2005, 5:34 PM
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folks, its a Tibloc. its use is as an emergency ascender only.
also, dont use a fig-8 for rappelling- they will twist your line nicely.
finally, read briarpatch's post again about rappel backups. its a good one.
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danpayne
Jan 3, 2005, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: folks, its a Tibloc. its use is as an emergency ascender only. also, dont use a fig-8 for rappelling- they will twist your line nicely. finally, read briarpatch's post again about rappel backups. its a good one.
Sorry bout the spelling, and I do realize what a Tibloc is for. As far as backing up a rappel, I like to extend my ATC-XP with a quickdraw, and then rig the shunt right to the belay loop. That way, it never bears your full weight, and is easy to unload afterwords...
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2005, 6:30 PM
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its funny that the tibloc, is, by far and away, the most misspelled climbing word ever. no idea why.
anyway, i assume when you extend your belay device out that you use a locker on both ends of the draw or you girth hitch a sling directly to your belay loop. i've seen this done, and those who use this technique seem to swear by it.
havent tried it, but maybe i should.
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el_jerko
Jan 3, 2005, 6:38 PM
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I'll throw in my $.02; I have been climbing (outdoors) for 6 years and have gone through many variations of rap backups. What I find works the best is an autoblock on a leg loop. Autoblocks are not any better than other friction knots, they are just fast and easy to rig. I have about a 10" loop of cord that I leave on my harness, and when it's time to rap I clip a biner (locker if I have one) into my right leg loop (I am right handed), clip the cord ito it, give it four raps around the the rope and clip it into the biner again. That is all there is too it, it takes seconds and it works. Keep your brake hand butted up against the knot and the rope slide right through your hand and the knot, let go and the knot tightens up and locks up your belay device.
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