(I also thought it was interesting that you quoted and slammed a post that was satirical and anti-Christian. You might want to re-read it.)

(I also thought it was interesting that you quoted and slammed a post that was satirical and anti-Christian. You might want to re-read it.)

So healyje, do you feel that people can never inextricably link their faith with their daily experience and activities? To give thanks and pursue fellowship outside of a physical house of worship? I didn't realize that pagans had claimed the entire outdoors as their own.

to answer happyfra, yes, i most definately do believe that!! with all my heart!!
yes, there is a "minimum" amount of faith. you must believe christ is the son of god, he came to earth as a man, born of a virgin, died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins, rose again and is now in heaven. its called faith. also works. it says no one can get to heavan by works alone, you must have faith, also that faith without works is dead. not only must you believe in christ, but you must be good to your neighbor. the scripture i quoted above about loving the lord your god...... jesus is summing up the law, what we must do as christians, it all boils down to that one verse (in a nutshell)

Keep in mind that creationism and evolution are BOTH theories, meaning that neither has been proven conclusively. An objective scientist will consider the possibilities of both and disregard neither.

Is it possible that a higher power than we can comprehend used the process of evolution (Big Bang) as His means of Creationism? Just a thought from a "know-nothing".

I believe that being a Christian is to be Christ Like. This is a personal relationship, an inward change that will bring an outward change that people will see.

Let me get it right: do you believe that god made things in a way that to be saved and avoid endless pain in the hell you have to believe in jesus?
Okay, so, if you believe so, would you explain what a poor guy who was born in, let's say, India, should think of your god? born in a place he didn't choose, and without a chance to get saved? It seems to me that your god is either very evil or has a pretty weird sense of humor. I don't like him at all...

I can't speak for godskid5, but in your response to his post, I would have to disaggree with points from both of your sides, and I can do it with the same argument for both.

The catechism of the Catholic Church (for those who don't know what that is, essentially it is a book outlining the catholic view on almost any conceivable question you might have on the faith, as defined by reference to sacred scripture, and sacred tradition both) allows for a person with "invicible ignorance" to still have the likelihood of going to heaven.

Let's define invicible ignorance. If you truly had never learned anything about Christianity, because let's say you were born to a shipwrecked woman that died shortly after you were born, and you then lived as a wildman on a deserted island, and died before ever meeting another living person, you could be said to live in invicible ignorance. That sort of thing doesn't happen much nowadays, though. In fact, the missionary efforts of many churches are aimed at letting people in societies that don't have much knowledge of Chrisitanity learn about it.

If in your case, the person from India had grown up learning whatever religion that person's parents taught them, and never having any experience where they were taught about Christianity, then that person is invicibly ignorant of Christ. Now, if this invicbly ingnorant person lived according to their beliefs, and did not sin, which is possible, in that to sin you have to realize you are doing wrong, then we can accept that God, in his infinite mercy and love for all of us, might find a way to welcome that person into eternity with Him in Heaven.

Now, some might argue that even an invincibly ignorant person would be sinning, and therefore be going to Hell, no ifs ands or buts. That is a possibility, but not a guarrantee. A person that truly does not know that property rights exist has not stolen something, for example, and if they have no knowledge of property rights, and no knowledge of God not wanting us to steal things, then they have no knowledge that they sinned. So, there is reason to argue that a certain act is not a sin for every person that does it, and that the sin rests in going against God's will. And even in those who don't believe God is out there, do you not have what you would term any conscience? That nagging part of your mind making you uncomfortable when you do something wrong? I would argue that you should listen to that voice, because whether you wish to believe that it is God putting that voice in your head, or not, you have to admit when you do wrong.


I have wandered a little astray here, but mainly, in the case of the Indian person, unless they were trapped somewhere with no possible way to ever learn the Christian faith, then invincible ignorance never comes into it. But, if they learn of the faith, and reject it, that is exactly what they are doing. By rejecting Christianity, they reject Christ, and by extension, God. As the saying goes, "If you don't believe in God, you better PRAY you are right"

I am sorry, but this is simply false. Creationism is maybe a theory, but it is NOT a scientific theory. It is what in epistmology we call an "ad hoc" theory. To put in simple terms, it can't be falsified and therefore it is not interesting from a scientifical point of view. An "objective scientist" (sorry again, nothing like that exists in nature...) would never consider creationism at the same level of evolutionism, which could be wrong, but it IS a scientific theory. I could provide more detail about it, or, if you want a more powerful source of information, read Sir K. R. Popper...

evolution does have scientific evidence backing it up. you can see it in action everyday. why do people need to get another flu shot every year? why dont you look exactly like your parents. why do people with ancestors from sunnier environments have darker skin tone than those who came from cloud covered areas? the precision of the universe by no means implies a requirement for an intelligent designer. by that same argument, you could say that our intelligent designer required an intelligent designer as well. and this could go on ad infinitum. there are theories in physics that address this issue. it can be compared to the idea of how life on earth came about. the chances are slim for something like that to occur. the universe is so big and vast and has existed for so long. given enough time and space even the most improbable of things will occur. and quantum mechanics tells us that everything that happens has some probability. there is a chance if you jumped up in the air that you might fly off into the space. that chance is extremely small, something like 10^-55% but it is still possible.

"fatally flawed interpretive scheme of the sort that no responsible Christian teacher in the history of the church ever endorsed before this century"

So from what I understand of the Christian point of view is that to be "saved" the only requirement is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. Sounds simple and straight forward. No living the right life or anything just believe. So here's my beef with this what about all the folks who have never been given the opportunity to get exposed to the fact that Jesus ever existed. So they are just SOL because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just never struck me as something a fair and just GOD would come up with as a plan.