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lynne
Jan 12, 2003, 2:03 PM
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That used to be the trad mantra in the 'olden days.' It has never been mine. I don't mind falling on gear so long as I am not going to skid down a slab or slam into a ledge (or the ground). However lately, after Goran Kropp's and other fatal accidents, I'm starting to think that "the leader must not fall" may not be such a bad philosophy.
I'm curious about you experienced trad climbers - what is your approach? If you subscribe to the idea that you must not fall, has that held you back from progressing at a certain point, or did it slow your development as a climber? Those things don't bother me. I'll never be a badass climber. The biggest concern I have is that if I believe I must never fall, then fear may cripple me when I think I might.
Climbing on trad lead has such a huge psychological component for me - I don't want to screw that up. What is your approach?
Edit to change "never" to "not" DOH!
[ This Message was edited by: lynne on 2003-01-12 17:28 ]
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brutusofwyde
Jan 12, 2003, 2:18 PM
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Brutus says:
Don't Fall [TM]
It's a BIG DEAL [TM]
You could DIE [TM]
Has this held me back as a climber? Probably not as much as the extra 20 pounds around my waist.
Did it slow my progress as a climber? Probably not. But then again, I learned in an age where 5.10 was the hardest climb known, and I myself was always several grades behind. I used to take falls. After several near-misses, and some injuries, and after old age crept up on me, I became more gun-shy.
The ability to read the rock and predict difficulty, the ability to downclimb out of trouble, the ability to walk the finest of edges of difficulty without crossing the line to flight, and finally willingness to grab pro rather than fall, all are in my opinion more important than willingness to take long falls on good protection.
I may risk a short fall once in awhile, when attempting a low-probability move, especially if I'm below a good piece. But even then, I try never to fall.
Folks might tell you that I'm old fashioned, that I'll never live up to my potential. I hope not, if my potential ia a premature visit to a pine box.
Folks might also tell you that they have seen me go all-out, desperate and on the edge of flight. But those same folks might also tell you that they have never seen me take a big whipper in those situations.
Your mileage may vary,
but hopefully it will not qualify you for the frequent flier award.
Brutus
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mesomorf
Jan 12, 2003, 2:34 PM
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Brutus has summed it up well, as usual.
I would add that knowing one's ability, in concert with being able to read the rock, is how you can avoid disastrous falls.
There is only one way to know your ability, and that's through experience. Getting experience means pushing close to that edge that Brutus talked about.
Eventually you will be able to tell quite well, "I can climb that" or "I can protect there" or "There is no pro, but I can climb it anyway."
The key is to be able to believe in your assessment. That it what keeps the inevitable fear from paralyzing you once you're committed to the move(s).
In addition to just plain mileage, experience means travelling and climbing a lot of different kinds of rock. Or in lots of different snow/ice/mixed conditions.
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rrrADAM
Jan 12, 2003, 2:46 PM
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Air-time is good, provided you set solid pro.
The best way to improve is to climb outside your comfort level. If you do this, you will fall.
In the above referenced death, only one piece broke, the rest was pilot error. Climbing is dangerous, it says that in every guide book.
Must not fall is accurate to X Rated Routes. Really should not fall is accurate to R Rated Routes. Don't want to fall is accurate to PG Rated Routes. And who cares if I fall is accurate to G Rated Routes.
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mesomorf
Jan 12, 2003, 3:29 PM
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Quote:Air-time is good, provided you set solid pro.
And there's nothing to hit. Rock is harder than bone. Harder than flesh, too.
"Air time is good" is the sport climbing mentality, where falls are generally safer. This is the conflict between the really old way of thinking (leader never falls) and the new way of thinking (falls are the only way to get better). In trad climbing, the truth is somewhere in between.
Every climb is potentially an X climb. Things can go wrong. Ever been dropped by your belayer, for example?
The trick is to be able to accurately assess the risk, then take appropriate action, whether the action is to go for broke, downclimb and rethink the situation, grab pro (if available) or turn over the lead to your partner.
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rrrADAM
Jan 12, 2003, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
"Air time is good" is the sport climbing mentality,...
Not true... I have taken numerous falls on Trad, including two 40+ footers.
I agree about the "somewhere in between", but also, those who have taken many falls on Trad gear really trust their placements. Those who have not, don't have the same level of trust, and this plays in one's mind when they think "one must not fall". Get my point ???
And good point about "clean falls", as I figured that would be a given.
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repete
Jan 12, 2003, 4:16 PM
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I have never taken a fall on trad gear. The fact that i have never fallen on my own gear makes me trust it less. In my head i know its solid and i know it will hold but i have never taken a fall on it so i have never realy tested this theory. I feel that this has hindered my progress because i am reluctant to trad lead harder routes. I top rope 5.10 consistently and dont wory about sporting 5.9 but still i have never trad lead anything over 5.7. Do you guys think I should start leading harder routes? I think that once i take a fall on my own gear i will start feeling more comfortable doing this, but since i only trad routes that are in my comfort level this isnt likely to happen any time soon. what should i do???
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rrrADAM
Jan 12, 2003, 4:34 PM
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Try climbing harder "G Rated" routes that you can sew up with solid gear, and that have clean falls.
Overhangs like those at The Gunks are the best for this, as the pro is solid, and the falls are clean. Plus, there are many easy to moderate routes with both of the above.
Again... As stated above, being able to ascess the risk and protect appropriately is the most important thing. If you are not sure you can do this, then don't.
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rrrADAM
Jan 12, 2003, 4:39 PM
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BTW... Personally, I trust a solid stopper I set myself over any bolt set by God knows who and subsequently tightened by climbers who think the tighter the better.
Check this if you think all bolts are bomber.
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trillium
Jan 12, 2003, 5:33 PM
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Thank you to the person who posted this falling question. I have always felt a little uncertain about falling on my gear, partially because I questioned my placement, but at this point, more because of the wear and tear it puts on the gear. I also trust a solid nut placement over a bolt anyday.
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stevematthys
Jan 12, 2003, 5:39 PM
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i try pretty hard not to fall on gear. if i dont feel solid one day, i just wont lead that day.
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marks
Jan 12, 2003, 5:45 PM
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if you place gear well falling is o.k.if you dont place gear well keep to bouldering.
falling is a strange feeling not matter how many times you do it,its still not the nicest feeling.it took a 20 footer last weekend and gave myself whiplash.but i did the route.
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mesomorf
Jan 12, 2003, 5:45 PM
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rrradam, you are right. I'd rather place my own gear in most instances than trust any bolt.
I don't think you must actually fall on it to know it's going to hold, though. Aid climbing is a good way to learn what's good gear and what's not. Being able to read placements is absolutely as important as being able to read the rock.
I've taken lots of falls too (never more than 25 - 30 feet) and only pulled gear once in 30+ years. Like Brutus, most of my falls occured in the earlier years.
Where the paralyzing fear and no-fall situations occur are when the gear is sketchy. I mean tiny cams and wires, old pins and bolts, flared or dirty placements or soft rock, or when there's no pro available at all. Or you're WAY in the backcountry with no hope of assistance.
repete, you won't hear ME saying "take practice falls" or "yeah, jump on the 10s, man!" That is something you must decide for yourself.
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jughead
Jan 12, 2003, 6:02 PM
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harnesses these days are designed to take the impact of a heavy fall with minimal damage and in addition with dynamic ropes AND short lengths of shock absorbing bungee rope such as the zyper y falling isnt as dangerous as it used to be and if you know what your doing and have had PROFESSIONAL instruction (NOT FROM A BLOODY BOOK!!!)on how to place cams, nuts etc. then your gear will rarely fail. but anyway my philosophy
IF YOU DONT FALL THEN YOU NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH!!!
if I can do 6a without falling then its time for 6b as soon as I can do that without falling then its time for 6c which is what I'm currently working on
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lynne
Jan 12, 2003, 7:03 PM
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I've fallen on gear plenty of times. I am confident in my ability to set bomber pieces. I also know when something I've placed is purely psychological (though I don't advocate this practice). So this question I have posted is more subtle than "do you trust your gear?" I do. Trad leaders who don't trust their gear shouldn't be leading on it. Period.
Sometimes $#!& just happens that is totally out of your control. I don't worry about that. But sometimes small errors conspire together to create that one in a million scenario, like Goran's, and it seems to me that the 'never fall' philosophy minimizes the chances of this type of accident. Goran's accident shook me to the core of my climbing soul to be honest. It really made me rethink my climbing.
I like Brutus' approach. Everything said about reading the rock is very important, too. I think a cavalier attitude about falling on gear is a mistake. I didn't used to. It's just a fine line between trying not to fall and being too afraid to fall. Learning to back off is good. Thanks for the input guys.
Oh, and I hate clipping bolts. I'll beg for trad leads, but a sport climb has to be very special before I'll choose to lead it. Bolts scare me, and you can't sew 'em up either.
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camhead
Jan 12, 2003, 7:17 PM
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I'm with Adam. If the gear is good, go for it! Gear just keeps improving these days. A bomber cam or nut is at least as trustworthy as a bolt. If the pro looks solid, I will hop on a trad route that is well ove my head, just as I would a sport route.
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wildtrail
Jan 12, 2003, 9:34 PM
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I stay within my limits, typically. I don't believe in pushing because that's not what climbing is about to me. I just enjoy the climb, the view, the fun.
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roc-ray
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Jan 12, 2003, 10:34 PM
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Don't fall on marginal gear is my belief.Then again I have only fallen twice on gear and they were short falls so maybe I am not one to offer an opinion.I do know not to fall on an ice screw though!
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philbox
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Jan 12, 2003, 11:09 PM
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Trad or sport I avoid falling like the plague. My climbing mates have been taking me out sport climbing of late and they have been encouraging me to fall, ugh, it gives me the creeps, call me a control freek if you will but that is my make up and I find it difficult to change my basic over riding personallity traits of always wanting to be in control.
...Phil...
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dingus
Jan 12, 2003, 11:41 PM
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Context is everything. A clean sport climbing fall is one thing. Clean trad climb fall in certain circumstance, cool. I think of the 3rd pitch of Serenity Crack... a fall from that crux is a fairly safe adventure.
How about a fall, any fall, 10 miles in the back country? Over blocky rock? Or onto bad pro or a ledge? Never mind the personal risk. What about everyone else involved?
I remember some himalya expedition was nearly hosed when one of the guys decided to do some high ball bouldering in base camp one day. He fell. Got hurt. The only thing that saved them was ten days bad weather. He healed. Wilford maybe? Child?
Another context ... father of two, sole bread winner, a pile of bills to pay.
There are times when we cannot afford to get hurt. Period. Those are the times we should climb with a "must not fall" attitude.
DMT
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jgill
Jan 13, 2003, 12:58 AM
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Actually, the admonition that "the leader must not fall" goes wayback in climbing history, before the advent of nylon ropes. (Was it the British climber Abraham Young who uttered those words eons ago?). In the mid 1950s, when we used lay nylon ropes, as I was getting into "trad" climbing, Dave Rearick (FA of Diamond on Longs Pk) informed me that "if you don't fall while leading, you're not reaching your potential". So "olden times" means long before the "Golden Age".
[ This Message was edited by: jgill on 2003-01-14 09:36 ]
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sizzlechest
Jan 13, 2003, 4:23 AM
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Yes I usually push myself pretty hard trad climbing, I've lead alot of harder trad lead and yes on some i've whipped it's really not a big deal if your gear is solid and your used to recognizing good gear. As for the r type routes I have only fallen the odd time on those, there a little bit more calculated in terms of where you get your pro etc, a little more planning involved but that's the part i like, all in all once you've good gear placements dialed if your on a route with good gear falling on it is really not much different then a sport route. I have had the odd piece pull but 99% of the time I was expecting it (ie hard fiddly gear leads) what you don't want is pieces popping that you think were good. thats my take
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antimatter
Jan 13, 2003, 6:14 AM
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Trying like hell to avoid a fall is a good way to learn better gear placing stances and a good way to get strong.
Should you fall or not? It's the same question as whether you should free solo or not. There's risk involved in even the safest of falls. You decide how much you can tolerate.
That said, I've taken many "safe" whippers and I enjoy pushing it where the gear is good. With experience reading the rock, guaging the quality of gear, risk of a fall and downclimbing potential you'll get closer to leading "at your limit" and better at avoiding bad falls.
However, as others have said, any fall can be a bad fall. Bolts pull, gear pulls, belayers drop climbers, etc.
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 13, 2003, 6:18 AM
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People used to follow routes for a long time before they tried to lead, nowadays people start leading a lot sooner. The majority of beginning leaders do not place very good gear in my experience. Another thing to do before falling is downclimbing and hanging, just make sure you check the piece before you weight it.
Almost every trad route has sections of G,PG,R and X. Generally the hazard rating refers to the most difficult section or a runout above it. Beware topo’s are not always right, the ultra classic J Crack at lumpy ridge was a 5.9 with a unprotected 5.8 slab section, the new guidebook calls it unprotected 5.10. Double Cross at J-tree is a perfect 5.7 hand crack that you can place good gear anywhere, but more than several people have died on it.
repete
Practice placing gear on the ground and having someone critique your placements can help. Have someone who "knows" what they are doing clean your routes. If they say your gear looks good then you can start considering falling on it. This goes for each type of rock you climb on because they are all different. Avoid placing psychological pro like the plague, It can kill you. Using your life to test how good of gear you place is not a good idea! Aid climbing on clean gear is a good way to get an idea of how good your gear placements are.
A crack climb can be way safer to fall on then any sport climb, you get to control your level of commitment. Indian creek for example. So if your gear is good and the fall is fine, go for it, otherwise don’t fall.
be safe
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gravical
Jan 13, 2003, 11:30 AM
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I am not an experienced trad climber at all, but i have been into sport climbing a lot and I have always felt that if you do not fall nothing can go wrong
In other words, learn to know your limitations
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nonick
Jan 13, 2003, 11:56 AM
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I climb in area where are the rocks are really bad - most times they are so loose and weak that a slight push can turn them into powder.
Out here, the leader cannot take a fall. The protection for most parts, whatever the grade is usually tenous on account of the nature of the rocks.
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ambler
Jan 13, 2003, 2:20 PM
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Most posts are focusing on whether the gear is good, or the flight path is clean. Those are critical questions but not the only questions. I've seen a lot of falls that were much longer than twice the distance above good pro, because other factors came into play -- slack in the rope, belayer position, belayer reaction (or lack of), lower pieces pulling under sideways or upwards loads. The outcomes ranged from a good scare to broken bones, and they could easily have been worse.
Keep in mind that when you fall there is a whole complex system, not just one piece of gear, that you're counting on to save your life. It's hard to predict how that system will perform when shock-loaded by your flying body.
[ This Message was edited by: ambler on 2003-01-13 06:22 ]
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holmeslovesguinness
Jan 13, 2003, 3:19 PM
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I'm still a relatively novice trad leader, so the idea of falling on my gear still fills me with apprehension. I have no problem taking relatively short lead falls (say 10' or less) on bomber gear, but I beyond that I can get pretty gripped.
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dbrayack
Jan 13, 2003, 3:25 PM
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I, for the most part, sport climb, but when I do get on a trad route, in my mind, I am soloing with gear for the worse case, is this a bad mind set? I don't think that I have enough traditional experience to be bold, but I do have enough to place safe gear and keep myself in comfortable situations.
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onbelay_osu
Jan 13, 2003, 4:53 PM
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I just started Trad, have not taken a fall.... I climb WELL with in my ability though, no more than a 5.8
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sonso45
Jan 13, 2003, 4:56 PM
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On a route that I feel solid, I know I won't fall. On a route that's long and new, like the Scenic Cruise, I would be committing to "not fall" for portions of the climb. I went up with the feeling that if I got into a spot I couldn't pass, I was ready to back off even with the hellish retreat up the canyon. I fall only when pushing myself past limits I know and consider the options prior to doing the moves. I am then trying to succed, not test my gear. I have been hurt when I was overconfident and hopefully old age has made me wiser.
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vegastradguy
Jan 13, 2003, 6:56 PM
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As a new trad leader, taking falls isnt high on my list. Mostly because the level i'm leading at (5.6-5.8+ish) makes me not want to fall onto the slab below me. ugh.
However, the more trad I climb, the more I think I should take falls for two reasons. 1) to learn to REALLY trust my gear, because I don't as of yet. Just like the first time climbing, sitting into that harnesss at the top of the top rope, having to trust that gear. *shudder* hard stuff. you intellectually know it'll work, but try to tell that to your insticts.
2) I need to improve. and you improve by climbing at and above your limits.
However, I think I will get a bit more trad mileage on me before pusing my limits. Work my way up to them first, so that I am very comfortable placing gear and climbing. Hopefully by the summer I'll hit 5.9+ and if I'm lucky, i'll tap on 5.10a's before the end of the year.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 14, 2003, 8:44 AM
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> I agree about the "somewhere in between", but
> also, those who have taken many falls on Trad
> gear really trust their placements.
Well, I don't need to get into a p!ssing match with rradam about who has fallen the most. Suffice to say that after more than three decades of climbing, I can usually tell the difference between a bunk placement and a bomber placement.
> Those who have not, don't have the same level
> of trust, and this plays in one's mind when they
> think "one must not fall". Get my point ???
I guess not. Maybe I'm taking your response too personally, but if you are saying that my philosophy comes from a lack of experience, and/or a lack of ability to accurately assess my pro and the climbing situation, you are dead wrong.
Then again, most of my climbing these days is done in the situation Dingus describes... if something bad happens to me, I'll likely be dead before word ever reaches civilization. The rest, the "cragging" as it were, I view as just practice for the "real thing" and thus apply the same philosophy near the road as well.
As far as the comment about roofs being safe, I have to disagree with this generalization. One of the most serious injuries I have ever observed first hand (partial amputation) occurred on a roof route, where the fall should have been clean. AND IT WAS THE SECOND who was injured.
Roofs present the team with a traversing situation, leaving the second potentially as exposed to serious falls as the leader. Even if the outward swing is safe, the return pendulum packs nearly as much kinetic energy as the initial fall, and can slam the climber into the rock sideways, with vulnerable vital organs at risk. Add to this the potential for rope rupture over edges, and that generalization becomes fraught with potentially fatal errors.
Of course, every situation is different, and must be taken as it unfolds. But the above is food for thought.
Climb Safe!
Brutus
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rrrADAM
Jan 14, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Brutus... I've been climbing for about 3 1/2 years, so you have 10X the experience I do. I'm sure that you have also fallen much more than I have.
No pissing match here, as with your experience, you can do it standing up, whereas I still have to squat to pee.
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climb4life
Jan 14, 2003, 9:54 PM
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the question of the fall to me is how much is your life worth to you?
climbing is my life. if i die climbing, then i probably will die happy. however, i have taken numerous falls and i still shrudders at each one of those falls. i am not talking about those short ten foot falls. i once climbed at guadalupe natl park in tx for climbing. that rock was $#!&ty. even the ranger warned us, we still insisted on climbing. i was placing pros closley together for the rock was crap. i took a fall that was supposed to be a five footer, but the crappy rock broke under the weight of my fall and three pro poped out and i fell about twenty feet. no matter how bomber the gear i may have place, don't forget, the rock got to be bomber too. of course i was stupid enough to climb that rock. never get used to the feelings.
climb safe
ps. i once have been told by and old retired climber. climb harder, fall less. i still wonder what that means.
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tanner
Jan 14, 2003, 11:03 PM
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I'm new too trad climbing(less than 1 year under my harness) But I go by the idea of the leader must not fall. I look as trad climbing as free solo with a saftey net. Idea of falling scares me! Not because I don't trust my pro but because once I'm falling I'm out of control. I would probable trust a my gear over a bolt but thats because I don't know any thing about the bolt. My nut or pink tricam I know every thing about it. I do rest on my gear. I think I should take up aid climbing.
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saltspringer
Jan 14, 2003, 11:06 PM
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I don't climb to fall, I climb to enjoy the view, the exhiliration, companionship and pushing my limits: sometimes I fall on trad leads but I do everything I can to avoid falling. The post above that states "climb harder, fall less (close?)" makes sense to me since when I'm trying not to fall I'm usually climbing my best. I've seen quite a few climbers who are quite casual about falling (trad & sport) and they all seem to give up more easily whereas climbers who fight tooth and nail not to fall really seem to have a great sense of accomplishment when they finish their route. When I fall I feel as though I've failed somehow, that I didn't put in quite enough effort...when I climb a route clean I feel that I've climbed the route not fallen up it.
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indigo_nite
Jan 14, 2003, 11:39 PM
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I don't want to fall on my gear. the thing is that when you're climbing at your edge, sometimes you don't have time or great stances to place ideal pro. I think of myself as a relatively new trad leader (1 yr.).
I'm happy now with moderates and moving very gradually towards more challenging stuff. people who I've belayed and like pushing the edge a bit harder seem to climb hard and hang more or one guide placed his cams in spots w/ constrictions on top + bottom (in response to gear popping on hard falls).
right now, when I get gripped at a crux, I'll downclimb to a calm stance and visualize the next sequence (I try not to hang but don't get chancy w/ falls).
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brianthew
Jan 15, 2003, 6:16 AM
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Of course falling is something everbody avoids...regardless of style.
I'm curious what some ice people have to say about this...I'm in my first ice season, and have been admonished not to fall, and I despite my best efforst have done so, and I say, falling even shortish distances on ice gives 10x the "Oh ----!" factor than I've felt on rock. This primarily has to do with the fact I'm holding two sharp pointy weapons and have a set of pointy spikes on my feet, along with boots so stiff that I can just visualize my ankles crunching if the front points catch the ice while I fall....yowch. Even while on top rope, falling often entails a tool popping...and that's what helmets and safety glasses are for .
So I say, on ice, don't fall...ever!
[ This Message was edited by: brianthew on 2003-01-14 22:17 ]
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jt512
Jan 15, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Quote:
Of course falling is something everbody avoids...regardless of style.
Not really. Falls are routine in sport climbing.
-Jay
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brianthew
Jan 15, 2003, 7:24 PM
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I'm primarily a sport climber, and yes, falls are common, but despite thier frequency they are still avoided; I'd rather stick a move than fall. A fall means you blow a redpoint or an onsight, so even in sport climbing, they are avoided.
Granted there are some out there that enjoy big whippers. I am not one of them, though.
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crack_head
Jan 15, 2003, 7:36 PM
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i have only been leading trad for about two months so naturally i don't climb my hardest on lead, yet. i can sport at around 5.9+ and i try not to do any trad routes harder than 5.8, i just trying to get comfortable and more experenced with placing gear. So i havn't even taken a fall on trad lead, but i have taken a handful on sport climbs
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dave1
Jan 16, 2003, 8:37 PM
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Who is Goran, and what happened???
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cracklover
Jan 17, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Goran Kröpp was famous for, among other things, biking solo from Europe to Mt Everest, successfully summitting, and then biking home. Pretty amazing feat! He had a tragic accident this summer where he was leading a single pitch trad crack in Washington state. He fell near the top of his climb, and all the placements failed, causing him to deck (and die). Go to cascadeclimbers.com to get all the details of the accident.
I've only been leading for a couple years - mostly trad, and I've not fallen yet. But neither have I ever backed down off a climb. I did once rest on a piece of gear before completing a lead, but I'm not particularly proud of that fact.
My first priority in these first couple of years has been to focus on my placement when leading, and I happen to live fairly close to the Gunks, where there are dozens of fantastic moderate climbs. So there's been no need to push myself on lead. I've also done a little tiny bit of aiding. I think this was invaluable in helping to see what placements were at least halfway decent, and I'd like to do more.
I'm not in any rush to fall, but when it happens, it happens. I'd like to think that my ability to know my gear is good enough now that I'll probably be okay.
GO
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knuckles
Jan 17, 2003, 11:43 PM
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I see so many now that learned to lead in the gym... falling constantly... yelling take at each bolt... not something we should do outside
I've always respected those among us who freeclimb like I was first taught it: the rope is just there as a safety net. You don't USE it, act like you are soloing... it's there just in case. Better to reverse moves to a good stance or even grab a sling than to roll the dice on gear. I have fallen and I'm sure I will again... and granted my fall isn't going to tear up my belayer like the old body belays would... but the older I get and the more I see the more I trust my hands and feet before nuts and bolts.
Working something and falling repeatedly can be tons of fun... but that's what spotters and crashpads are for
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dino
Jan 18, 2003, 3:32 AM
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I went to cascadeclimbers.com and read the entire 13 page thread (Death at the Coulee) regarding Göran Kropp-RIP. It is sobering commentary and well worth looking at for anybody who plugs their own gear.
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drewdekle
Jan 18, 2003, 10:47 PM
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wow; your question embodies just about all that trad is about. Bold ground-up ascents and run-outs are just part of the game. there are definately times when i know "the leader must not fall" this is the "no fall zone" - especially where i climb most - N.C.. other times, maybe you'te working a hard move just abouve good pro, then, at least you feel a bit better about air time. One thing about trad though is you know just exactly how good you can really climb when it's all on the line.
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nbrown
Jan 19, 2003, 4:20 PM
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I stay well within my limits.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:04 PM
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the leader should fall.
why spend all that monies on gear if you never plan to use it.
if you do not fall, then you are not challenging yourself. television is prolly suited better for you.
if you do not fall, how will you learn to fall in a safe and correct manner? most injuries occuring while falling are from inexperienced climbers.
falling is an inherant part of climbing.
rock climbing is meant to be a challenge, learn to challenge yourself. if you are afraid to fall, then learn how. this fear will only ever keep you from ever finding your true limits.
mentality can be won and lost. fight the good fight.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:14 PM
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Jeeze, Gawd, did you even bother to read the rest of the posts before writing what you wrote above???
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:21 PM
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lynne,
what is that supposed to mean? i care little to what these people have to say. i was expousing my opinion on the subject.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:29 PM
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obviously.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:32 PM
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lynne,
way to make a comment and then not back it up. please enlighten me to why post is not valid?
if you have no comment dont make one.
thanks!
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:42 PM
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I didn't say your post was not valid, but it certainly didn't add a thing to the discussion, IMHO. Reading long threads before you shoot your wad tends to make your posts more thoughtful, relevent, and perhaps even more insightful.
You missed the point of the thread. "The leader must not fall" doesn't mean that the leader will never fall, it simply means that the trad leader will not be casual about falling on gear. Big difference. Also, there's good stuff in this thread from experienced trad leaders - well worth your time to read, unless you're here merely to "espouse your opinion" and not actually contribute or /gasp/ learn something.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:46 PM
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you should be causal about falling. falling when you are scared tends to mean your body is not relaxed and you are not ready to fall. people whom fall rigid will less likely allow their bodies to act naturally and will at times result in injury.
just as when skiing never fight your fall, but go with it. 80% od acl injuries are from people attempting to fight the fall.
so you should fall causually and should know how to fall. to always have in your mind you should not fall is ludicris and not healthy to a long and successful climbing carrer.
"fear" of falling is just as bad as not knowing how to fall. be ready for it.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:52 PM
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gawd, if you had read the post you would get it. Clearly you still do not. Sheese.
Peace & out.
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krustyklimber
Jan 20, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Gawd makes many wonderful points on this page, but I don't think everyone has to apply that to trad
the leader should fall.
Yes, once in a while you should fall off a route... thats what sport routes and gym climbing is for.
why spend all that monies on gear if you never plan to use it.
So that while I am trad climbing I can feel somewhat safe about not hitting the ground, knowing my second will not take giant swings (because I have protected for him as well)... and that just in case I do happen to fall I will probably be caught by my gear. But for myself most of the gear money expended was for big wallin'.
if you do not fall, then you are not challenging yourself. television is prolly suited better for you.
Again, I agree with that, and I often push myself to the point of failure. But I do it when I feel safe enough for my own personal comfort... something which for all of us is measured differently... I do it on topropes, sportroutes, the gym etc. I think the 'puter is more suited to me than the T.V.
if you do not fall, how will you learn to fall in a safe and correct manner? most injuries occuring while falling are from inexperienced climbers.
But this does not mean that one has to do it on trad routes.
When I was roadracing motorcycles I didn't get my practice falls in on my fast expensive roadracers (at over 100mph it was to big of a calculated risk), instead I did it at 10 or 20 mph in the trails, doing considerably less damage to body and equimpment.
I think this is a good anology, no?
falling is an inherant part of climbing.
Yup
rock climbing is meant to be a challenge, learn to challenge yourself. if you are afraid to fall, then learn how. this fear will only ever keep you from ever finding your true limits.
It's getting redundant, but you don't have to learn to do this on trad routes.
mentality can be won and lost. fight the good fight.
I agree that it can be won, and once you have the skills (or the abilities to win if you like), earned on safer ground, you can take them out and really use them.
Much the way you have.
you should be causal about falling. falling when you are scared tends to mean your body is not relaxed and you are not ready to fall. people whom fall rigid will less likely allow their bodies to act naturally and will at times result in injury.
One should never be "casual" about falling, familiar with yes, but never casual... that leads to disaster.
so you should fall causually and should know how to fall. to always have in your mind you should not fall is ludicris and not healthy to a long and successful climbing carrer.
Here is where I have to completely disagree... I have been climbing for most of your life, ending up with what has compiled to be a long, fun, happy and resonably healthy climbing career...
I have yet to fall onto a piece of trad gear on a trad lead...
All of us have different "calculators" we used to calculate the risks and the consequences of a fall... and each of us needs to learn how to listen and to converse, like Gawd has, with it and to be able to tell that little voice to "shut up, and suck it up."
Sometimes this is a good thing for any true climbing spirit... other times the little voice in your "calculator" is totally right and then discrection is needed.
I hope Gawd, and all of you, can find the discretion as easily as he finds his courage when he needs it...
Jeff
Stupid html
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2003-01-20 15:00 ]
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gawd
Jan 20, 2003, 11:23 PM
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pappy,
i have climbed routes down in tenn and alabamer. and i have fallen on hard slab. i would tend not to want to make it a habit, but when pushing yourself it happens.
i have also climbed hard slab in yosemite and darrigton.
what is your point?
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kirkbrode
Jan 22, 2003, 3:35 AM
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"leader must not fall" is valid in some situations and not in others for me.
if a fall will likely result in injury or death, "the leader must not fall" concept is valid provided he/she is interested in self preservation, I would think.
otherwise... make make good placements, evaluate the risk, climb above and risk a fall if you feel the fall will be safe. if you deem the fall to be unsafe and are not willing to accept that risk, come down.
If I evaluate the fall as being safe, "the leader must not fall" does not apply for me.
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