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roy_hinkley_jr
Jul 29, 2008, 3:37 PM
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healyje wrote: For climbing - which is about strength, endurance, balance, and control - yoga maps to what we do extremely well relative to those elements which both share in common. Speed? I'll give him sspeed, but Ashtanga maps pretty closely to climbing there as well.
In that context, NIA and Pilates are probably even better. But it's all just watered down strength training mixed in with ROM and balance stuff gussied up in a pretty package to sell.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2008, 4:01 PM
Post #27 of 60
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smeshy123 wrote: I'd say I have two focuses which are slightly contradictory. If I was to break it down I would say: Climbing 60% Muscle hypertrophy 40% I understand you don't want huge muscles for climbing. I don't want huge muscles at all, but I'd like to fill my body out more.
I have two foci in responding: the first is to provide some practical advice; the second, to use the word "foci" in an ordinary conversation. The second goal having been fulfilled, I proceed with the first.
I think that wanting to fill out your physique can be compatible with improving your climbing, provided that you make climbing training your main priority. It seems that most people can climb up to four days a week and still have enough days off to recover to avoid injury. Fatigue induced by weight training will interfere with your climbing training, more than fatigue from climbing will interfere with your weight training. So, if you're climbing 4 days a week, you want to avoid weight training on your non-climbing days, especially the day before you climb, and obviously, you want to avoid weight training before climbing on a climbing day. Weight training two days a week is sufficient for your goals. What all this implies is that you should do your weight training after your climbing two days a week. A weekly schedule for someone who can climb in the gym two days during a week, and get out to the crag on the weekend would look something like this:
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: Climbing gym, followed by upper body weight training
Wednesday: Rest
Thursday: Climbing gym, followed by lower body weight training
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Climb
Sunday: Climb
If you find that you are not fully recovered for climbing on Saturday, then try switching the Wednesday and Thursday routines to give two full rest days before the weekend.
Providing that swimming is easy for you (it's not not for me, although running is), you can probably swim on any days, including rest days.
Jay
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 4:17 PM
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aerili wrote: sungam wrote: What did you think of mine, BTW> (If I remember right, you're in the know). Some of it's okay, but it has some serious flaws for a person like smeshy who has certain goals that are un-climbing related. My personal feeling is that you follow Crossfit a lot, which has no customization to it whatsoever for any particular goal (go ahead and argue with me on that if you like, it doesn't change the truth). Also saying stuff like: "Make sure to take it really easy in the morning, your body is not warmed up whatsoever, easiest time time tweak something (in the bad way)" is misleading. There's no special "time of day" in which you can sustain more injury. Warm up is essential regardless of the time of day. Another thing is that for a guy who wants to fill out, you have put in way too much cardio. This will work against his goal, considering his natural ectomorph-dominant physique. Also, doing a lot of interval training could potentially be the most detrimental form of cardio for him, physique development-wise...Because of its effect on EPOC. Also, there is no rest in your plan. Doing constant AM and PM workouts leaves time for recovery...when? There is also a bit too much overlap of working the same muscle groups through both resistance training AND cardio exercises day after day which may present a problem for him in the form of overtraining eventually. Remember, more doesn't always equal better.
Mass=worse at climbing!!!
At 15.5 stone, I should know.
Anyways, I realize a lot of my stuff didn't tend to the fact he has a bad shoulder.
I've never done more then glance at crossfit- let alone do any of it. I have barely climbed let alone trained in the last few months- 16 hour work days don't leave spare time, and days off are spent to random stuff with friends and the odd bit of climbing. (woo! gettin fat!!!)
As for the morning thing, I find that when I have to take it A LOT easier in the morning to warm up. You know, not even walked around or showed so really really low heart rate and now blood in te_h muscles ('cep for the recovereez, of course) just makes me feel yuk.
Also, I reckon my plan left a lot to customization, just saying how I would do it, but my basic trend is a bit of cardio morning and night, some beast skills to get the whole body going, and following RP- who is a beast, BTW.
I <3 rowing, BTW.
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sidepull
Jul 29, 2008, 4:48 PM
Post #29 of 60
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jt512 wrote: I have two foci in responding: the first is to provide some practical advice; the second, to use the word "foci" in an ordinary conversation. The second goal having been fulfilled, I proceed with the first.
Trophy!
PS - Maybe now that rc.com has new ownership they can reinstate the trophy function?
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 4:51 PM
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sidepull wrote: jt512 wrote: I have two foci in responding: the first is to provide some practical advice; the second, to use the word "foci" in an ordinary conversation. The second goal having been fulfilled, I proceed with the first. Trophy! PS - Maybe now that rc.com has new ownership they can reinstate the trophy function?
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sidepull
Jul 29, 2008, 4:55 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: healyje wrote: For climbing - which is about strength, endurance, balance, and control - yoga maps to what we do extremely well relative to those elements which both share in common. Speed? I'll give him sspeed, but Ashtanga maps pretty closely to climbing there as well. In that context, NIA and Pilates are probably even better. But it's all just watered down strength training mixed in with ROM and balance stuff gussied up in a pretty package to sell.
Roy's point about packaging is pretty important here, perhaps more important than healyje's stubborn insistence that the OP begin doing yoga even though the OP never listed yoga as a desired activity. Realize that this is coming from someone that really enjoys yoga, but I also realize that not everyone does (it does seem bizarre and ironic that healyje has been so pushy about it here).
Let me be a bit more blunt - I think there are a lot of activities that provide a more complimentary foil to climbing than yoga. The reality is that climbers glom onto yoga because philosophically it resonates with climbing more so than the activity itself makes you a better climber. I'm not saying that yoga is detrimental (although wait for the next paragraph) but I am saying that a lot of people by into Prana's paradigm and assume the activities are linked simply because their is a sense of harmony between each activity's ethos.
Perhaps more importantly for this conversation is the issue of shoulder injuries. I doubt there are many things that are worse for a poor rotator cuff or unstabilized shoulder joint than an hour of moving in and out of downward dog.
In sum, if I were the OP, I'd follow JT512's advice. You'll fill out and climb harder.
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healyje
Jul 29, 2008, 4:56 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: healyje wrote: For climbing - which is about strength, endurance, balance, and control - yoga maps to what we do extremely well relative to those elements which both share in common. Speed? I'll give him sspeed, but Ashtanga maps pretty closely to climbing there as well. In that context, NIA and Pilates are probably even better. But it's all just watered down strength training mixed in with ROM and balance stuff gussied up in a pretty package to sell.
I would say not in the case of Pilates and NIA is entirely watered down relative to even Ashtanga's primary series. "Balance stuff" is again fairly telling telling quote in it's own right as is "packaged to sell". And the point of doing yoga for climbing isn't to increase in difficulty, it's to provide a better foundation on which to a person could sustain any attempts to increasingly difficult levels of interesting climbing.
Personally, I think focusing on difficulty is boringly inane, vanity driven, and overall simply takes one aspect of climbing completely out of context. Climbing harder as a by-product of living better and stronger and doing increasingly more interesting lines is one thing. Devouting yourself to it? A fairly low and narrow horizon at best...
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 29, 2008, 4:56 PM)
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healyje
Jul 29, 2008, 5:08 PM
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sidepull wrote: Let me be a bit more blunt - I think there are a lot of activities that provide a more complimentary foil to climbing than yoga. The reality is that climbers glom onto yoga because philosophically it resonates with climbing more so than the activity itself makes you a better climber.
You guys keep piling on ignorance on top of ignorance when it comes to Ashtanga yoga. Again, do any of what you guys suggest relative to working out with weights and then do an Ashtanga class. You will get your ass kicked and have all the holes punched in your approach such that the narrowness of such advice for climbing will be obvious in a manner of minutes.
In reply to: 'm not saying that yoga is detrimental (although wait for the next paragraph) but I am saying that a lot of people by into Prana's paradigm and assume the activities are linked simply because their is a sense of harmony between each activity's ethos.
I would assert you're talking out your ass as badly as Boyle.
In reply to: Perhaps more importantly for this conversation is the issue of shoulder injuries. I doubt there are many things that are worse for a poor rotator cuff or unstabilized shoulder joint than an hour of moving in and out of downward dog.
If the shoulder is stabilized by doing the rehab Roy and I have commented on then yoga isn't a problem and until that time there are modified / intermediate forms of every pose to deal with just such issues.
In reply to: In sum, if I were the OP, I'd follow JT512's advice. You'll fill out and climb harder.
I wouldn't, 'filling out' relative to climbing is stupid and climbing harder is not a likely result of that advice.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 29, 2008, 5:11 PM)
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 5:09 PM
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Everyone to their own.
Remember one of the reasons alot of people climb is the physical challenge- so why not rise to the challenge of taking on some harder routes?
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healyje
Jul 29, 2008, 5:15 PM
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sungam wrote: Everyone to their own. Remember one of the reasons alot of people climb is the physical challenge- so why not rise to the challenge of taking on some harder routes?
I just said one can take on harder routes, but I'd say do it in a broader context of interesting lines. Chasing numbers - boring beyond words. In my entire climbing career I've never once climbed a route for difficulty - can't even imagine narrowing the scope of climbing in such a manner.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2008, 5:15 PM
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healyje wrote: And the point of doing yoga for climbing isn't to increase in difficulty, it's to provide a better foundation on which to a person could sustain any attempts to increasingly difficult levels of interesting climbing.
Huh?
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 5:16 PM
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healyje wrote: You guys keep piling on ignorance on top of ignorance when it comes to Ashtanga yoga. Again, do any of what you guys suggest relative to working out with weights and then do an Ashtanga class. You will get your ass kicked and have all the holes punched in your approach such that the narrowness of such advice for climbing will be obvious in a manner of minutes.
You can climb 5.15 but can't kickflip, you're gunna get FUCKED at skateboarding! better do it more!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMgwtfbbq!!!
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 5:22 PM
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healyje wrote: I just said one can take on harder routes, but I'd say do it in a broader context of interesting lines. Chasing numbers - boring beyond words. In my entire climbing career I've never once climbed a route for difficulty - can't even imagine narrowing the scope of climbing in such a manner.
don't have fun climbing?
Wouldn't they just be pumping iron and watching the KG count go up?
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aerili
Jul 29, 2008, 5:23 PM
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sungam wrote: Fuck filling out! Mass=worse at climbing!!!
Sungam, if perchance you actually had the right education to be a trainer, you would be a terrible one. The idea is not to impose your own goals and ideals on your client, but to listen to what they want and work accordingly.
BTW, I've worked with enough people with body types like smeshy's, and trust me when I say he is unlikely to have to worry about gaining TOO much muscle. Sometimes these ectomorphs can and do get pretty fat as they get older if they are not physically active and eat whatever they want, but some of them remain hardgainers for life, and gaining muscle is always a challenge.
In reply to: I have barely climbed let alone trained in the last few months- 16 hour work days don't leave spare time, and days off are spent to random stuff with friends and the odd bit of climbing. (woo! gettin fat!!!)
Enlightening. Based on your daily post count, I never would have guessed.
Edited for grammar.
(This post was edited by aerili on Jul 29, 2008, 5:30 PM)
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 5:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: healyje wrote: And the point of doing yoga for climbing isn't to increase in difficulty, it's to provide a better foundation on which to a person could sustain any attempts to increasingly difficult levels of interesting climbing. Huh?
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 5:26 PM
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aerili wrote: sungam wrote: Fuck filling out! Mass=worse at climbing!!! Sungam, if perchance you actually had the right education to be a trainer, you would be a terrible one. The idea is not to impose your own goals and ideals on your client, but to listen to what they want and work accordingly.
In reply to: I have barely climbed let alone trained in the last few months- 16 hour work days don't leave spare time, and days off are spent to random stuff with friends and the odd bit of climbing. (woo! gettin fat!!!)
Enlightening. Based on your daily post count, I never would have guessed.woo-hooo!
:)
Gotta save moniez! must not live with parents any more!!!!!!!!!!
(My girlfriend wants to move here next summer, how the fuck is my girlfriend going to live with me when I live on a fucking sofa-bed in my parent's lounge???)
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smeshy123
Jul 29, 2008, 5:50 PM
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This is a very enlightening debate, thanks everyone for the great advice! Are there any more opinions on the yoga issue?
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aerili
Jul 29, 2008, 6:15 PM
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I'm not saying don't do yoga. I'm not saying it does nothing for you, either, but I do not feel it is the primary method one like yourself can utilize for filling out and improving performance.
However, it may assist you in mental focus strategies that can benefit your climbing. It should help with general endurance, flexibility and core strength and proprioception in climbing, as well as work some muscle groups climbers like to ignore. But I would view it as an adjunct to the rest of your training options, not the main path for goals.
I didn't mean to attack healyje's personal experience of benefits derived from yoga at all; however, Mike Boyle makes valid, scientific points as to why yoga isn't necessarily ever going to be the #1 tool (or #2, or #3) in a strength coach's cabinet for your typical power athlete (climbers are somewhat similar and in other ways not similar at all to mainstream power athletes). Mike Boyle writes his articles in a confrontational and aggressive way that grabs your attention, but if you met him in person, you would find him an approachable guy who is really nice. He is a well known, reputable strength coach and he has the nerve to objectively examine the status quo trends, is all.
I've got other things to do, so for now, read this link to an article by Alwyn Cosgrove. I know it sounds like it's written for a bodybuilder, but Alwyn's a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and also lectures at conferences on many principles of sports conditioning and has worked with dancers, martial artists, and ice skaters, so he's not just a meathead. You can take his principles and modify them over time in an amount to fit what you are looking for (i.e. you don't want to gain 60# of muscle). Depending on how much biking, swimming and running you do and your caloric intake, you'll never gain that much anyway so you have no worries. Gaining muscle takes A LOT of work and a strategy for people like yourself--just lifting weights does not a bodybuilder-lookalike make.
http://findarticles.com/.../is_9_20/ai_n6242981
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healyje
Jul 29, 2008, 6:17 PM
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smeshy123 wrote: This is a very enlightening debate, thanks everyone for the great advice! Are there any more opinions on the yoga issue?
I would say do the rotator cuff rehab routines and once you're shoulder feels more stable take a couple of Ashtanga classes but doing the intermediate downward dog pose and form your own opinions on it. Lots of hese guys hail from the training world where they feel they can control every aspect of the body in isolation as just another machine - I believe they can, but largely miss the point in doing so. As I said, it's personally not a road I'd ever go down for climbing, but that's just me.
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sidepull
Jul 29, 2008, 6:59 PM
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healyje wrote: sidepull wrote: Let me be a bit more blunt - I think there are a lot of activities that provide a more complimentary foil to climbing than yoga. The reality is that climbers glom onto yoga because philosophically it resonates with climbing more so than the activity itself makes you a better climber. You guys keep piling on ignorance on top of ignorance when it comes to Ashtanga yoga. Again, do any of what you guys suggest relative to working out with weights and then do an Ashtanga class. You will get your ass kicked and have all the holes punched in your approach such that the narrowness of such advice for climbing will be obvious in a manner of minutes.
healyje, I'm not sure I understand your fanaticism on this point in a thread where the topic of yoga was introduced only by you. Again, I am someon who enjoys yoga, but I'm not so blinded by that sense of enjoyment that I fanatically and ardently push my opinions regarding the matter to the point that I need to use profanity to defend my position. Similarly, even though I enjoy yoga I'm not blind to the fact that 1) it isn't the end all be all of training and 2) it, like any other training style, has patterns that promote some specific overuse injuries which, in this case happen to coincide with injuries the OP has.
In sum, your arguments are pretty weak here when all you can muster is "take a class in Ashtanga" (which I have) and comparing me to Mike Boyle along with profanity when the fact is that if Mike Boyle were responding to this thread he'd be offering far more beneficial advise than you. If you can't see the limits of your logic then it's unlikely others will take your innane declarations seriously. Note that I'm not making a general statement about you - usually you seem pretty on point which makes your dogmatic discussions here all the more odd.
(This post was edited by sidepull on Jul 29, 2008, 7:45 PM)
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sungam
Jul 29, 2008, 10:25 PM
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sidepull wrote: fanaticism
I'm glad he isn't religious.
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smeshy123
Jul 30, 2008, 4:28 AM
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Ok, here is what I have come up with after all advice given:
This will be broken down into two possible scenarios:
Scenario 1: I plan on climbing outdoors Saturday
M: Climb (2hrs) Full Body Lifting (1hrs)
T: Abs (30 mins) Run (30 mins)
W: Climb (2hrs) Swim (30 mins)
Th: Abs (30 mins) Full body Lifting (1hrs)
F: Rest
S: Outdoor Climb
S: Rest
Scenario 2: I do not plan on climbing outdoors Saturday
M: Climb (2hrs) Full Body Lifting (1hrs)
T: Abs (30 mins) Run (30 mins)
W: Climb (2hrs) Full Body Lifting (1hrs)
Th: Abs (30 mins) Swim (30 mins)
F: Climb (2hrs) Full Body Lifting (1hrs)
S: Run or Swim (30 mins)
S: Rest
Ideally I'll be outdoors every other week so that will involve 5 days of lifting in every 14.
My abs workouts will be variations of:
Reverse crunch
Crunch
Woodchop
The first 2 on a ball
My full body workout will consist of compound muscle movements:
Series 1:
Wide grip chin ups
Dips
Deadlift
Squat
Standing shoulder press barbell
Series 2:
Bench press (some variation of)
Rows (some variation of)
Deadlift
Squat
Standing shoulder press dumbbell
Every two weeks I'll change up the number of reps and rest periods, I'll also attempt to add a minimum amount of weight to every workout.
I haven't figured out what to do specifically for my climbing periods. Advice would be great. I have to look at rockprodigy's guide in more detail...
My initial goal will be 3500 calories a day, which I've done in the past and I know is doable. I normally east approximately 3000 a day during the school year without trying. If it's not enough I'll probably be able to bump to 4000 a day.
Advice on the overall program would be great as well.
Also, if I get enough of an ab workout from my compound exercises then I'll drop the ab specific workouts.
If I decide that I'm doing too much cardio I will give Yoga a try.
Please critique!
(This post was edited by smeshy123 on Jul 30, 2008, 4:30 AM)
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jt512
Jul 30, 2008, 6:36 AM
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healyje wrote: Ashtanga yoga is a fairly robust affair focused on breathing through a series of changing poses. It will kick your ass even if you are in great shape in pretty much any and all other activities. Think of it as working every muscle you don't work climbing or swimming on top of all those you do. It is essentially about establishing strength while at the same time developing a breathe-based control over your mind and body. Top that off with simultaneously tuning your balance through it all and the combination simply is hard to beat for climbing. Lots of Ashtanga vids up on youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu9Sq1RvuoA 
Nice effort. I actually like your dialog bubble better than mine, but despite your edit, you haven't got the background right. What you want to do is to set the background to "transparent" and save the image as a .gif file.
HTH
jt512
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sungam
Jul 30, 2008, 8:41 AM
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30 mins @ abs is barely getting warmed up...
try this... (2 s rest between item)
5 up and twist
5 up to touch the knees
5 up and punch
5 side one side
5 the other
10 up and twist
10 up and touch
10 up and punch
10 one side
10 the other
15 up and twist
15 blah
20 blah
15
10
5
Wooooo!
then leg lifts (mind, only lift them a wee bit, hands behind the head or -if it's too hard- under your ass)
5 straight up
5 cross overs
5 individual up and downs
5 bikes
5 circles
10 straight up
then the L hangs!!!
Hang for 10
up down 5
hang for 10
up down for 5
^super duper hard.
then, at the wall, hang on an overhang, and pick two jugs for hands, and spot to holds either side of these holds, around nipple height.
right foot touchs right spot hold, left foot touchs right spot hold,
right foot touches left spot hold, left foot touchs left spot hold.
Go mess around, you'll see what I mean.
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sungam
Jul 30, 2008, 8:46 AM
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jt512 wrote: healyje wrote: Ashtanga yoga is a fairly robust affair focused on breathing through a series of changing poses. It will kick your ass even if you are in great shape in pretty much any and all other activities. Think of it as working every muscle you don't work climbing or swimming on top of all those you do. It is essentially about establishing strength while at the same time developing a breathe-based control over your mind and body. Top that off with simultaneously tuning your balance through it all and the combination simply is hard to beat for climbing. Lots of Ashtanga vids up on youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu9Sq1RvuoA Nice effort. I actually like your dialog bubble better than mine, but despite your edit, you haven't got the background right. What you want to do is to set the background to "transparent" and save the image as a .gif file. HTH jt512
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