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flipnfall
Sep 4, 2008, 11:42 PM
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sidepull wrote: That's because people that are naturally gifted don't need a routine - there bodies allow them to adapt to the haphazard stresses better whereas non-gifted people just get injured.
That must be my problem. I'm just so naturally gifted that I don't need a routine.
GT
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lithiummetalman
Sep 15, 2008, 6:12 PM
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sidepull wrote: I'm finding it increasingly interesting how many climbers advocate this style of training. Of course, a major asterisk next to that observation is that most of these people are alpine climbers. That said, I've been doing a similar training regimen except with more climbing filtered in for the last month and I'm very happy with the results - no injuries, big increases in power, strength, and endurance. I'm getting way too excited about Fall. 
Questions to Sidepull and Borntorocku:
How would one apply the conjugate periodization system to climbing, what would a typical, say a four week, schedule look like?
Def interested in seeing your schedules if willing to share!
Cheers!
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boracus
Sep 15, 2008, 7:58 PM
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I'm psyched to see so many people into a good training/physiology discussion on climbing. I'll have to agree w/ serpico that most climbers misuse the term power, when in fact they're talking about short term strength endurance.
To answer poomasta's question: I follow more of a non-linear training routine. My endurance and raw strength out put varies during the seasons as I boulder more during the winter and climb on a rope more during the spring, summer and fall. I really don't believe that you can keep your PE/strength endurance maxed out w/ out seriously risking overuse injuries, that being said I do believe that you can maintain a high level of PE, whatever that may be for you individually.
Physiologically you're really looking at the three phases of energy production when it comes to training. You've got max strength/recruitment, PE/strength endurance (the anaerobic system) and straight aerobic endurance. PE is really just training the muscles to work at a higher intensity for more reps/moves... this is essentially bodybuilding. I think that the really interesting part of training is in the realm of maximum strength. I would agree w/ A, when it comes to recruitment training it's all about the nervous system. You're trying to get every last muscle fiber to go when you say so. Personally, I think that very few people ever really train this. To create a training stimulus you need to use extremely high loads, pretty much 95-100% of your 1RM and it seems that the only safe way to do this is w/ an extremely predictable exercise. So campusing may work but I think that free weights are far and away the best way to do this. They may not be as climbing specific but I'll take the trade off in increased safety during training.
The point about the pros is interseting too, seems like the biggest advantage that the pros have (besides being on the upper limits of the bell curve genetically) is the fact that they can do exactly what their bodies need exactly when they need it. I'm sure most of us would jump a few grades if all our lives consisted of was climbing and recovering from our climbing... there is a great old school quote "It's easy to climb 5.12, simply quit your job and climb everyday."
I liked poomasta's trimmed down comparison of climber A and climber B following a periodized vs a non periodized training schedule. I would say that most climbers are climber B, most of us want to be out climbing as much as possible. It would be way easier to achieve a specific goal if you were neurotic and only had one problem or route in mind... nothing beats training specificity, but it's way to boring for me, so after having studied human performance for the last 10 years I've decided that the slow and steady approach is better for me. Also after having messed around w/ a lot of different training routines I've decided that if you want to improve at climbing.... get out there and climb. Anymore my wieght training is more focused on increasing my overall strength and most importantly structured to keep me injury free, I figure if I can get out and climb more that's the best way for me to achieve my climbing goals.
Have fun and play hard,
BA
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borntorocku
Sep 16, 2008, 6:42 PM
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Here are my last 2 weeks:
week 1
m: flash as many new boulder problems as possible, three tries max on the rest
t: repeat route at my hard onsight level twice in a row
rest 5 min
repeat 10 times
w: rest
th: project boulder problems from m
f: circuit, 1 boulder problem every 2 min, gradually more difficult until failure than gradually easier, 30+ problems
sa: rest
su: send “hard” boulder problem outside, get annoyed with flies, go home, mono hangs on hangboard – Personal Record!
Week 2
m: repeat route at my easy redpoint level
rest 6 min
repeat 7 times
t: repeat route at my med onsight level, up climb, down climb, up climb
rest 2 min
repeat 13 times
w: rest
th: create boulder problems that take 3 tries
repeat all boulder problems that I won’t fall on
f: rest
s: rest/travel
I was focused on doing as much hard quality movement as possible to prepare for a road trip. I try to tick as many quality climbs as possible (not project any one thing) on road trips. Currently, I am on the trip. I think the training worked out well because I am sending a lot. It is great to able to figure out different sequences very quickly. I attribute that the relatively high volume.
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docky
Sep 17, 2008, 10:23 AM
Post #30 of 50
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I boulder and Train a lot. Over the past 2 years I quit with the schedule and started to listen to my body. If I feel good I crank if I am beat down then I take how ever many days It takes to recover. My strength and power have gone way up from climbing like this
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poomasta
Sep 17, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Docky -
I've been thinking about that a lot recently - just listening to my body to determine my training for the day. i still put together a training schedule on a weekly basis, but some days, i just don't feel like doing the prescribed workout is a good idea (e.g. threshold bouldering if i don't feel particularly strong). If I'm still sore, i might do some general light conditioning exercises and ARC for 30 mins. If I'm feeling unusually good, maybe i'll do a 4x4, even tho it was supposed to be a light day.
For those that don't follow a linear periodization training regime, is there a certain percentage of time you would recommend training hypertrophy (e.g. hangboard, system wall) vs. recruitment (e.g. campus, threshold bouldering) vs. PE (e.g. 4x4s)?
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jaablink
Sep 17, 2008, 3:06 PM
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You know you are getting old when you have a system for everything.
Most of my friends and I climb 5 or 6 days a week (rain days, weights and or cardio)(systematic cragging, focus on form every day , power (1,2 days), gear placements, and rope tricks. two or three times a month we head out to larger walls to play and have fun (its all about the mileage ).
Also you can work out 3 groups to total fatigue daily. Calves, forearms, and abs.
You will need to tailor a program for yourself that matches your current ability and your goals. Take your time and don’t over do it. The rocks are not going any ware.
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borntorocku
Sep 18, 2008, 5:23 PM
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If you look at http://www.westside-barbell.com/ or http://www.elitefts.com/, they suggest that beginners work with a predetermined schedule and elite athletes can be more free form. Beginners need the external structure because they lack the experience and often times do too much or too little. Elite athletes have a general idea what they want to do each do, but wait until after they warm-up to decide the exact workout. If they are "on" they go hard. If they are "off" they will not push it.
As far as dividing training time, I think it depends on your goals. If you you are entering an onsight bouldering comp, you want to make sure you can climb near your maximum with short rest. If you are projecting one hard boulder, you want to be able to climb very hard with long rest. Personally, I boulder all year long and only sport climb in the winter. I try to keep my strength up all the time, and only train endurance to keep from overtraining strength.
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docky
Sep 19, 2008, 3:44 AM
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I disagree with some of what.. borntorocku.. has said first off, I was a competitive power lifter for years and though I like west side barbell, they're routines and training schedule have nothing to do with rock climbing training. lifting weights in a set format is a waste of your time. #1.Stay away from any leg training other than yoga with static body weight positions. we all know you do not need big strong legs to climb. #2. Without getting technical there is no reason any weight training should be done for the purpose of on the rock strength. keeping any tendinitis away should be the main priority of any weight training program. I.E. pushing movements, finger/wrist extension and forearm pronation/supination exercises . Now adding weight to your body when system training is the best training you can do for on the rock strength. Pulling into lock-offs with one arm in all positions and alternating different hand holds is the ultimate static power training. I am not talking about the eric horsts training regime but similar, with smaller and more realistic holds. You can do this at angles from 20 to 90 degrees. Contact strength I do not need to get into. There is stuff all over the net to read. Anyhow, weight training should be for balancing out your pulling muscles. I have done every training rage out there and know for a fact that high and low lvl weight training does nothing for your power and very little for climbing endurance. Sorry if I was blunt Good luck!
(This post was edited by docky on Sep 19, 2008, 4:10 AM)
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aerili
Sep 19, 2008, 4:33 AM
Post #35 of 50
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docky wrote: #1.Stay away from any leg training other than yoga with static body weight positions. we all know you do not need big strong legs to climb. #2. Without getting technical there is no reason any weight training should be done for the purpose of on the rock strength. keeping any tendinitis away should be the main priority of any weight training program. I.E. pushing movements, finger/wrist extension and forearm pronation/supination exercises .
I'm really tired of hearing about how ONLY yoga can do this or that for you. Isometric strengthening is not the most effective type of strengthening when you have isotonic movements occurring. And I especially feel that climbers need to isotonically train their hamstrings b/c I read about a lot of hamstring strains while heel hooking--a dynamic movement typically. (Actually, I do both isometric and isotonic for hams since you do engage both types of strength.)
Also, I read about enough ankle sprains, hamstring strains, and knee injuries from things like drop knees that I believe climbers also need to weight train lower body preventatively just like their upper body. And yoga is far from the only--or best--way to do this. In fact, your legs can't even tell whether you're weighting them with your body weight or with some other external force--it's all the same to them. Therefore, you don't HAVE to do yoga but can get the same benefit with injury-preventative lower body weight training...or certain Pilates exercises...or you could use kettlebells instead of dumbbells for some things....and so on. You just have to know how to do it right.
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docky
Sep 19, 2008, 4:57 AM
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Are you a p.t. lol. If so nice answer you are right about the leg stuff But it all comes down to your body type and what you have done over the years from when you were a kid with sports etc. So yes you could look at it in that way it is fun to talk about.
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jto
Sep 19, 2008, 8:50 AM
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one can also train legs very hard without gaining any extra weight. mainly neural work and strong emphasis on balance.
strong hams are very useful in hooks and overhangs and if you´ve ever done a hard one leg full squat on a 5.12c slab from a dime edge you know you need lower body strength a lot! also glutes are in a very important role in keeping the body tension on steep routes.
anyway leg training is very very useful for climbers for every rock angle but it´s best done climbing or in a system wall etc.
off topic: nice to meet other powerlifting backgrounds here. I´ve been coaching power and strength related sports like powerlifting and strong man athletes for over 15 years.
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docky
Sep 19, 2008, 9:29 AM
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Nice, Ya I love training it is funny I have not trained with any weight in about 2 years and can pull 2 one arms on each arm. I did go to the gym with a friend to see what I could pull on the lat machine one day. It was funny to see my 6 ft 230lb friend get spanked by me at 5.10 178 I pulled the stack for 5. I do a lot of one arm lock offs on the system wall now with weight all the time it is great for pure static strength and power in the fingers and core arms and LEGS lol. I did squat 500 at 173 with wraps but those days are long gone. Nice to here you are a coach and trainer peace.
(This post was edited by docky on Sep 19, 2008, 9:48 AM)
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aerili
Sep 19, 2008, 5:49 PM
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docky wrote: ... it is funny I have not trained with any weight in about 2 years and can pull 2 one arms on each arm.
EXCEPT for all that gravity you experience while climbing, aye, docky?! Hmmm, couldn't possibly call that pull of gravity on your hands, arms and back muscles "weight" could we.... 
P.S. Hi jto, thanks for the nice post add on the topic.
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jto
Sep 19, 2008, 5:57 PM
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Well HI back to you. I agree on many things you write here and you contribute a lot on the physical training area.
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borntorocku
Sep 19, 2008, 6:03 PM
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I'm not suggesting that climbers should bench, squat, and deadlift. I use their training ideas in a rockclimbing context. For example, maximum effort for them is 1-3 rep in a main lift. I will do a 1-3 move boulder problem. Dynamic effort would be many problems with incomplete rest. They use repeated effort to address weakness.
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jaablink
Sep 19, 2008, 6:27 PM
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The more weight you can take off your arms and put on to your feet the more successful you will be at climbing. . Strong legs are a must…. Just packing in to the crag with 40 or 50 lbs of ,gear, ropes ,water, up the and down the hills is a leg workout. Climbing with the rack and dragging a line too….. Proportion and balance are a key, and leg strength is very important. But I guess a boulderer who only pulls 10 moves at a time does not need to worry about the long haul as much .
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docky
Sep 20, 2008, 5:50 AM
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YOU run with all that book knowledge. I know how functional strength works for rock climbing. I have helped train two national team climbers to get to the high level that they're at and stay injury free. You can say what you want about training for climbing, and if it works for you, great. I will let you win the pissing contest on this topic because too much book talk is very cheap, so post away and best of luck.
(This post was edited by docky on Sep 20, 2008, 6:19 AM)
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aerili
Sep 20, 2008, 8:02 AM
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I was just ribbing you a little bit, but joking sometimes dies hard on the Internet, I guess. Anyway, I do have more than book knowledge, but my comment to you was in fun, that's all.
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onceahardman
Sep 20, 2008, 1:22 PM
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docky, it wasn't personal. Doing one-arms really IS "weight training", even if you don't have iron in the free hand.
Not training legs much might be best if you aspire to compete on plastic. But if you want to go into the mountains, and climb a wide variety of face, crack, roof, chimney, slab, offwidth, with long approaches and devious descents, well, you had better have a strong "kinetic chain". Squats, deadlifts, PowerCleans,etc, all have a place in this. Kettlebells rule!
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sungam
Sep 20, 2008, 2:29 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Kettlebells rule!
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 20, 2008, 5:35 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Kettlebells rule!
Just a chunk of iron with a handle and a fad following. Ain't nothin' special. You can do nearly any kettlebell exercise with a dumbbell and get the same results. Some of the kb stuff, like tosses, is froufrou nonsense.
Otherwise your statement is right on.
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sidepull
Sep 20, 2008, 5:57 PM
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docky wrote: I boulder and Train a lot. Over the past 2 years I quit with the schedule and started to listen to my body. If I feel good I crank if I am beat down then I take how ever many days It takes to recover. My strength and power have gone way up from climbing like this
Docky,
You obviously have a lot of experience and there's a lot that we could learn from you. That said, there are a few ideas I'd like to toss out that you seem to slide past:
Training age
I would argue that the only reason why your "intuitive" listen-to-my-body approach works now is because you spent a few years being structured. The structured training helped to prevent injury, provide a well-rounded set of movement patterns, and, perhaps most importantly, allowed you to learn to use your CNS efficiently. The result is that the structured training actually developed your intuition while at the same time developing efficient movement patterns that allow you to make strength gains. This would not be true of a novice with a young training age - indeed it's a recipe for injury.
Book knowledge vs. functional knowledge
I think you're making a false comparison here. You are arguing that you have a set of knowledge that somehow obviates others' book knowledge. The truth is that there is likely a high correlation between the two, however, we're unable to better compare what you know with others because, as of yet, you haven't offered anything specific. For example, what did you do to train your successful climbers? What did an average week look like? An average training session? What principles do you think made the biggest difference?
I'd love to read your opinions.
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onceahardman
Sep 20, 2008, 6:35 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: onceahardman wrote: Kettlebells rule! Just a chunk of iron with a handle and a fad following. Ain't nothin' special. You can do nearly any kettlebell exercise with a dumbbell and get the same results. Some of the kb stuff, like tosses, is froufrou nonsense. Otherwise your statement is right on.
I agree. Likewise, dumbells are just two hunks of metal with a handle in between. Plates are hunks of metal with a hole in them. Squat racks are just modified jackstands. Nothing special.
I have long felt that the best excercise is the one you'll actually do. Kettlebells are fun for me. That means they rule. For me.
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jto
Sep 21, 2008, 6:42 PM
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The so called book knowledge is almost always based on studies. It´s not just some theories thrown up in the air but usually long time studies done on large crowds...in real life. Intuitive knowledge usually is based on much smaller crowds or even only one person. Anyway both are needed and to use "book knowledge" well one needs to have the ability to adjust, be creative and open minded.
On the other hand no one, intuitive or not loses anything if he/she sometimes sits down and opens a good book
Cheers.
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